I felt like this deserved a post of its own even though I posted it elsewhere. There appears to be a problem after the experience reset.
SUMMARY: People can beat AI in pantheon and receive ladder experience for it (eg x humans v x ai). Currently the highest ladder ranked played is in that position because he's great at killing AI in pantheon. I'd argue that the ladder should be a measure of who the best player is (IGNORING AI).
Using Prussian-havoc as an example - MOST OF THE PANTHEON GAMES HE'S PLAYED IN ARE VS AI. So... ladder ranked 1 can (and is) the guy who plays the most comp stomps. We all acknowledge that the computer is a joke. Giving experience for ladder ranking to anyone that plays pantheon vs AI strike me as unreasonable.
Can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make it so pantheon games against AI are NOT worth experience (eg NA)?
And to be specific, here are some examples from that last 20 games that Prussian-Havoc has played in pantheon against AI.
http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984346/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984307/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984249/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984213/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984071/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/984000/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983705/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983468/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983468/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/983134/player/78104/http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/981721/player/78104/
Out of the last 20 games, Prussian-Havoc played 1 game in pantheon in 2v2 where 4 human players fought against each other and won. He lost 1 2v2 with 4 humans present. He won a game where it was 3 humans v 1 human with 2 ai. All of the remaining games were him + humans vs ai. Out of those 20 games, 12 games counted as a win, 1 as a loss with the remaining games as NA. If games against the AI would not have been counted (and based on 15 EXP per game as described above), he'd have a total of 15 EXP gained for those 20 games (instead of approx 180 exp). Adjusting Pantheon so there are no vs AI games would solve this or not ranking any vs AI games (as is already done in custom).
I want to be crystal clear that I'm not trying, in any way, to call out Prussian-Havoc. I just feel the system is flawed and needs addressed for those of us that care about competative play.
I don't think we know enough about the ranking system to make a call here yet. I agree it looks bad on the first week, but if AIs always give the same amount of exp then when Prussian's exp climbs up into the 3k+ range like it did last season he might get miniscule amounts of exp off of the comps.
EXPERIENCE IS CURRENTLY GIVEN TO PLAYERS THAT BEAT AI. I'd hope this is an oversight (as in custom games, players v AI = NA). In panth (as some have figured out) EXP is granted for wins against AI.
If AI are worth NOTHING in custom games (eg X humans v X ai), why are X humans v X ai worth experience in pantheon? This is clearly incorrect, right?
Why are AI even in Pantheon games, it makes very little sense. If people want to comp stomp they can make a custom game or play singleplayer. Nobody enjoys playing a game with or against comps in Pantheon. Just remove AI altogether from Pantheon is what I suggest.
I don't understand why people play anything besides custom games.
the thing is, much of the time there are not enough players for a human vs human pantheon match, and so human vs a.i has to take place if there is to be a decent amount of activity in the pantheon. Players however will just always quit everytime they are vs a.i only if they get no ranking points for it - therefore making pantheon impossible to play/VERY inactive (people mostly play pantheon for the rankings/tournament).
Now, I think the fact that players can actually get a decent amount of points from playing vs only a.i....just a joke. It renders ranking useless. They mean basically nothing now. This has to be fixed. You can either:
1. Make Custom/Pantheon rankings seperate. People will know there will be no human vs a.i matches in Custom game and so will take those rankings seriously. Pantheon rankings will mean a lot for the tournament/who plays a lot.
2. Always make sure one side has humans in Pantheon. This is hard as it will make even more painful to get matches started via Pantheon.
3. Games with a.i's do not count towards ranking (unless there is an equal amount of humans on each side e.g 1 human 2 a.i vs 1 human 2 a.i etc.)Until then - ladders mean nothing
the ELO system sucks wang. why do u think the WoW developers are not using it any more? BECAUSE 11 MILLION PEOPLE AGREE THAT ITS STUPID.
if i lose to a team who has 2/3 people in the top 20 rank, why should i lose ~15 or more experience points for losing and remain LOWER THAN PEOPLE WHO HAVENT EVEN PLAYED A GAME AFTER RESET?
more than likely its a guaranteed loss anyway, right? so why should i lose so many points for it?
i support what you are saying pacov. rankings are also unfair if the BEST premade players cannot beat a single pantheon player. WTF IS THAT?!
hurry up and bring in clans and organise a PREMADE LADDER, so you can differenciate between PREMADE RANKS and RANDOM TEAM RANKS.
also remove AI from A MULTIPLAYER CENTRIC GAME, ITS SUCH A JOKE.ROFL.
anyway, after that rant i would also like to say it is a FACT that we will not see a change in this system of ranking for a long time
/expectsban.lolz.
This is made worse by these:
- AI players are locked at 1000 experience.
- Each loser of a match looses a % of their experience (the number differs, I think it's LosersExperience/avgOpponentExperience)
- The experience from each losing player is added together, then divided to winners based on their Favour/TotalFavour. (Possibly also by exp ratio, but definately by favour)
- When you have an AI player on your team, he gets 0 favour points. Which means he gets nothing from the experience "pool", more for you.
BTW, this is nothing new. I messaged GunslingerBara about players getting 83 exp for a match with AI only shortly after last reset, and got the reply "Working as intended"
And the ELO-system doesn't suck, using it for something it's not intended for does.
It works just fine for 1v1, that is if you rank teams as a whole, or don't have formats with more than one player competing against eachothers.
Stardock, for the love of God... please remove AI from Pantheon!
Oh, and bring Skirmish back (without AI of course) .
My reply from the same thread Pacov is referencing...
In regards to Pacov.
The Panth and the way it is structured is why i tell people not to pay any attention to a win/loss %. I play alot of panth as well as custom, but my stats look better than what they really are due to the amount of panth stomps in my list.
Worse thing is, the panth AI stomp is exploitable. Folks can certainly better their chances to play against AI by simply watching opengames.asp and see how many players are in the Panth queue for light or dark and hit fight accordingly.
Panth AI games should be excluded, no doubt, but we need a solution irregardless.
I mentioned this in another thread but will outline it again here.
Allow the panth to switch you from light to dark or vis versa. Lets you log in and click fight as dark, and there are 5 dark and 1 light player in the queue.
Let the panth wait it's set time for other players to join and if they don't instead of starting up a 3 v 1 with 2 AI, as would happen, give a choice to two dark players to switch to light and choose another character, thus allowing a 3 v 3 human game to be played.
The panth as it is now, if you watch, is a popularity contest. Many folk wait a little while at the start of a new tourny to see which side is winning then fight under that side. With the panth switching folks as needed it would balance out all games, eliminate AI and the side that won would do so with skill, not because they happen to be the flavor of the epoch.
This has been the case since before the most recent reset too.
The problem is that there just aren't enough people, so AI-matches are a must. But I'm not happy with this, because it makes the pantheon ranking worthless. AI-stomp can't be compared to human vs human matches at all. Once you learn the rules the AI follows, it's slaughter. They're so predictable, it's hilarious.
But I'm with pacov on this one. There needs to be a better solution, otherwise the pantheon ranking is pointless.
I'd say there are enough people for match-making. Even during the low-times of the day, there will eventually be a player with which you could be matched up in a 1v1, if you are willing to wait a little bit. They really, really should remove the AI from Pantheon/Skirmish.
Or at least implement the damn /noAI switch (I haven't checked yet if it's fixed in 1.19, but it's still in the bug list at least).
Having played in the game Prussian-Havoc lost, I can assure you he is completely undeserving of his position. Watching the replay is farcical.
There are enough human players for even match ups without AI. Just don't limit us players to light or dark. Allow players to switch as the needs arise.
that was the skirmish that apparantly no one played so they removed it last patch from the game. i really do not understand it why all played pantheon and not skrimish those being restricted to only a few dg combinations.
I'm paraphrasing, but Frogboy stated that DG was not designed for competitive play (or at least not intensely competitive). This came up when comparisons to HoN and LoL were being made in other threads. But the presence of the ranking system would appear to contradict that design intent, so your frustration with its flaws is not unwarranted.
Ah, here it is...
"There are people out there, particularly from certain competitive communities, that clearly have a different vision of what Demigod is or should be... There are other games that are much better suited for hard core competition than Demigod."
@Obscenitor – you make a fair point about experience for beating computers not being worth as much after a player reaches a certain amount of exp. Apologies for my tone and quick response as I was apparently a bit heated last night regarding this. As you said, it is quite probable that when he reaches 3k or so, the experience he’ll get off computers might be greatly reduced and the ladder will eventually reflect the best individual players.
Please be clear that I’m not arguing for removing AI from pantheon. I firmly believe that experience should not be given for beating AI only, just like it is currently handled in custom games now. I doubt that my opinion will change; it just might become a moot point as Obscenitor suggested.
Apologies to all for my lousy tone, though. Pretty sure we don’t need to kick the whole toxic community thing up a notch.
Demigod's entire ranking system is flawed. There's kinda no need to remove AI from pantheon when custom games are ranked. Because custom games are ranked you only need to grind wins against pick up groups to become high ranked. Its pretty much how every single high ranked person has gotten so high. The lack of a group automatch is the crux of this issue.
I will.
I was playing Panth today and as a 2v2 human game was launching who did i find was on the opposing team. Prussian-Havoc. He dissapeared from the connection screen straight away, and turned what would have been a nice 2v2 into a 2v1 with an AI.
Moments later he was in a panth game....with all AI. He left a human game to rejoin the queue and get into an AI only game.
I think it's obvious what is going on here...like i said..the panth is exploitable.
If i'm wrong..let him come explain his actions.
His game history highlights that this is what has occured time and time again.
Ok....just played another panth game, should have been a 3v3 but one player quit just before game launches...guess who.
Prussian-Havoc...again.
#1 my ass, i propose a 1v1 match between Prussian-Havoc, the supposed #1 and the #2 ranked player KALELsmX.....
Oh well, I think its safe to say the ladders now really dont show who are the "pro's" in Demigod Im not going to say that this is the Stardocks fault - the ladder is actually much better then a lot of Gamespy ladders for me and I love all the info and details we get.I think for a competitive/fair ladder we need sites like clanwars.cc to be used. However, when we oppened a Demigod ladder there no one used it so I guess we will go by name and reputation.
A huge part of the flawed matchmaking is due to the light/dark division in pantheon as discussed here:
http://forums.demigodthegame.com/364707
Surely it can't be that hard to set the panth games to not record games against AI as the custom games do currently. This would solve the issue of the stat exploiters at least.
I'd rather wait a few extra minutes than play w/ AI. Remove AI from Pantheon completely.
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