Its been over 1.5 years since Sins was first released and this is Ironclad's 22nd update to Sins/Entrenchment (ignoring all the beta updates).
It really hit us how the gameplay and strategies have evolved since then when we started tracking the source control changes for the siege frigate data which, as many of you may remember, went through a drastic nerfing early in 2008.
Well, now the situation is quite different due to a number of factors, not the least of which is player capability and the defensive measures added in Entrenchment. It was therefore neccessary to bring them back into the roster.
But we didn't stop at siege frigates. One of our primary objectives in this update is to make sure every unit is brought back into the pool of viable tools. In some cases this was as simple as modifying some data but in some cases we completely redesigned elements of them.
Naturally, trying to figure exactly what those changes needed to be was not an easy problem but one of the best ways was to play the game against as many players as possible so we once again took to playing regularly on Ironclad Online.
Unfortunately, we couldn't use our real names because when we did in the past we were the targets of unreasonable unholy alliances. Such circumstances aren't great for collecting data and analyzing strategies. Sorry for the smurfing but it was for a good cause
In addition to playing online we've spent a lot of time analyzing feedback on the forums, in particular the great thread by Deceiver_0.
In this thread he collected votes from everyone on a wide variety of issues and presented a consolidated place for ideas and potential fixes.
While we didn't agree with all the suggestions, we did attempt to address what we determined to be the underlying problems but in some cases we implemented the suggestions nearly verbatim.
Special thanks to everyone who contributed to that thread! Also, special thanks to everyone who wrote constructive posts or emails, we couldn't do this without you!
Enjoy!
-Ironclad
WARNING: This update will invalidate existing save games.
Gameplay / Balance:
Graphics and Effects:
Not sure if I caugh it but when will the release be?
Yay
which still can be push back 2 weeks to a month from past experience
Well, as Blizzard would say:
Soon
I know for a fact that stores will sell things that are cheaper online or at another store. A retail version with a box, disk, & manual are more than you would get with online and is a different version of the product with less hassle for the customer in the long run.
Reality & History are my sources. It's a fact that in-store retail accounts for the vast majority of all sales period. Adding another way to buy a product increases sales, especially if it is a proven method like in-store retail. People like to browse, even if they don't intend to buy, and that does lead to buying things quite often. This is the reason behind window displays and isle caps, they increase sales.
It is also proven psychology of sales that if you can get a product in a potential customers hands there is an increased chance they will buy it. That's why people who sell things door-to-door will often try to get you to hold what they are selling for a moment. While you can browse the internet for games it's just not the same as picking up a box.
Don't carry money? Cool, if your identity is stolen, the bank gets hacked, or your assets get frozen you're out of luck. Maybe just temporarily (as in a few years), maybe forever. Not being able to afford food is a great diet plan I bet. Don't get me started on credit card companies predatory practices - the reason I refuse to get get one over all other reasons.
Cell phone and no land line? Great, you better never forget to plug your phone in and then need to dial 911 emergency, because I can tell you don't have the hardware to defend your home yourself. Then there's the possibility of a fire or medical emergency as well.
Yes, increased sales for the company and less hassle for users is completely irrelevant.
I'll continue to push for things that are best for me and others like me who hate the disposable society being created now. In 10 years have fun playing... oh wait, you won't be able to play the games you get now because the servers to activate them or download them will be gone! On the other hand: I'll still be playing Missle Command on my Atari 2600, Mike Tysons Punch Out on my NES, Super Metroid / F-Zero on SNES, the dozens of PC games I have for my Apple II & 486 computer & Pentium 2 that are still fun and still work because I have a hard copy of the games with no DRM past a CD-Key (if even that) and the patches for some on disk. Hmm... I should start a museum...
What about the ai using mines......ive never seen it? do they use them?
Reality & History are my sources.
"Reality" and "history" are not sources. A book, magazine or website is a source. You are very vague and unspecific.
Yet another unverified statement.
It is irrelevant to this thread which is about the latest patch, not where most sales are made. Also, Impulse is not required to run any games, only to patch them. Quit whining.
You realise Mines are only in Entrenchment? I can't believe you have played Entrenchment Vs the AI and never seen them build mines....
ive never ran into them.....after playing for like 2 and a half hours against a hard ai before i destroyed him i just wandered around his gravity well with my scouts figuring i would have to clear them out or dodge them.........never saw them.....i figured it was wierd but maby the ai just never upgraded
If it was a 1v1 perhaps you crippled him before he got a chance to get them out. Maybe you stopped him getting enough military labs or crippled his economy. Do a larger game with several AIs and there will be plenty of mines.
You can see his mines even without scouts, you just can't shoot them as they are phased out.
ill try it and see
Technically, Ironclad is creating the updates but Stardock handles the distribution of them enthusiastically (which is also rare). Sometimes developers create updates and their publishers won't even let them out.
This one blows my mind. I wonder how many imbalanced RTS' have died not because the developer refused to support it further, but because the publisher abandoned support. I wonder if this is what happened with Relic and THQ. Their patching time on Company of Heroes went from every few months to over a year. That's too long for serious balance issues to fester to kill off the community who grow tired of a stale metagame.
Do the publishers not realize that letting the community die off kills future expansion sales? The continued support for Sins means my friend and I will certainly be picking up Diplomacy. Relic's Tales of Valor expansion? I don't think so Tim.
I know I'm a little too late, but I was wondering if you guys had enough time to take a look at the following issue;
Vasari have no Assault Cruisers because they use their starbase as the anti-starbase weapon. This is fine on paper, but no so in reality. It might work vs. TEC or Advent, but it is completely useless vs. another Vasari player.
A Vasari starbase trying to assault another Vasari starbase does not work!
Here is what I would recommend;
1. Increase the build time for ALL starbases in enemy gravity well by 50%. Vasari can unlock their starbases very quickly, their Colony Frigates are available at start and the Remote Assembly is researchable at level 2, way too early. That why I recommand increasing the deployment time in hostile gravity well by at least 50%. Starbases are suppose to be defensive in nature, not the other way aorund.
2. Rework Assault Deployment. Instead of increasing the build time in hostile gravity well by +25%/+50%, make it so that at
- Level 1: Vasari builds starbases as if in a friendly gravity well.
- Level 2: Vasari builds starbases as if in a friendly gravity well and reduces the build time by 75%.
I feel this is the only way to make this Vasari Starbase vs. Vasari Starbase work.
Keep up the good work IC.
I think he means that lvl 1 upgrade equalises build times no matter the grav well ownership and lvl 2 gives a hefty build rate bonus across the board (aka also irrespective of well ownership). in fact not such a bad idea, since time is everything here and you cannot really go below the friendly well rates.
you know, I have not looked into it much, but for vasari part of the problem is also that their starbase killer is sort of a single shot weapon. it takes out one but for the next you have to build another one. maybe something could be done about starbase recylcing. not sure, how much % do they get back for scrapping? maybe you could have a race specific trait that starbases can be scrapped at 100% return for res. and credits to show their nano tech and preservation advantages. that would make them relatively flexible in setting up offensive sbs and decommissioning them later on and allows for faster advances. unless the rate is already pretty high, can't remember from the top of my head.
What irks me about the Orkulus is that it takes a good 10-12 minutes to upgrade to a point where it can actually take on an enemy starbase... and after that, have you seen starbases fight? I've had a fully upgraded Orkulus take 25 minutes to kill a fully upgraded Transcensia... it's ridiculous. For being the Vasari anti-starbase tool, it's not very good at it. In truth, the Transcensia would have won if the AI ever actually used it's meteor swarms (why does the AI (Unfair in this case) not fully utilize Starbase abilities, anyway?).
The Orkulus is great at destroying orbital structures (which were never that hard to deal with in the first place), and it's good for taking out fleets. It's pretty mediocre against other starbases - and the set up is WAY too long... in that 10 minutes of upgrading (not even including construction) it's really easy to come along and take it out.
Honestly, as Vasari you have to rely on your fleet to attack a starbase. You need an Evacuator for the nano disassembler ability. Desolators are also nice, due to the missle swarm attacks and Disintegration. I'm not sure whether or not their implosive warheads ability affects Starbases or not, but if so - awesome, if not - it should. Not having a dedicated anti starbase weapon here is pretty rough... it's also rough having a fleet stand around for 15 minutes guarding a baby Orkulus.
But yeah, the Orkulus is very slow going at defeating other Starbases... and like Shadowhal said, it's a one shot option if you do build one for those purposes.
I think what would fix Vasari starbases is:
A.) Applying the assault deployment to the upgrade build times so that the thing upgrades 50% faster in hostile zones as well... I really think that this is needed.
B.) Integration: it's only situationally useful (due to requiring debris), and two ranks is one too many. Frontal Shields is almost always a better choice. How about replacing the integration ability with some big ass 'nanostream of doom', or something of that sort that's more akin to the Disintegration ability the Desolators have? Perhaps make it an anti-starbase weapon that hurts the base while healing the Orkulus? It'd still be damned situational, but it would add to the Orkulus' starbase killing profile.
Just something Death Star-ish would be nice... ya know? As it stands the TEC base can vaporise a fleet in it's death throes, and an Advent base can pull off some 'Deep Impact' style planet smashing... and turn any fleet engagement against it into a big game of 'Asteroids'. Fleet attack, planet attack... I think giving the Vasari a starbase attack would be fitting, and serve to reinforce it's intended role.
-Itharus
It's totally the opposite. Reintegration is way better in the majority of fights. Frontal shields lvl2 give you only 33% forward damage reduction (50% during every second minute), whereas Reintegration allows you to regenerate unlimited amounts of hit points. You say it requires debris. How's that a drawback? Wherever there are fleets involved, there will be debris. How the hell do you plan on losing an orkulus without any fleets involved in the combat?
I do agree that some Death Star beem of dhoom woul fit the Orky quite nicely.
It's useless against another starbase if you've already cleared out the opposing fleet. As near as I can tell, debris is only generated when a vessel explodes - by all means, correct me if I'm wrong on that observation (as it would largely invalidate my earlier assertion). Also, I rarely have my Orkulus engage a fleet by itself in a hostile well (as such there are overseers handy), and in a friendly well it has repair bays supporting it... with some exceptions... (space junk and other such sites where you cannot build tactical structures - in which locations I *do* use integration).
Do you agree that the Orkulus is mediocre against other stabases, N3rull? Would you agree that one of the two aforementioned abilities should be axed or lessened in exchange for a potent anti-starbase attack ability? (already answered, I failed to notice it before finishing this post)
And what of the Assault Deployment to upgrade build times? I ask because your's is a respected name in the community, and I'm curious as to what you think on the whole post, not just the worth of Integration vs Frontal Shields.
let me think on the Orky's ability loadout-
A given is that it keeps the Destabilize Phase Space (DUH!!!), and Stabilize Phase Space (also, DUH!!!). As for the Debris Vortex (the String-defined name of the ability; Reintegration is the defined ability on the Ravastra/Skarovas), I think that that one is better to keep on. Because:
1. It repairs hull, making it a lifesaver. An SB can easily loose its shields and not 90% die. IF properly upgraded.
2. the frontal shield ability only decreases damage OVER THE FRONTAL ARC (the front).
So, scrap the frontal shield, and add a JI-ANT BEEM CANNUN OF DHUUM!!!!
I would be happy, too. However I found a solution: I changed the font used by the game. See a topic about the issue and my fix for it: https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/342259/page/1/.
there is a difference between orky early game and late game.... orky early games are mofos... do you know how much it sucks to have a starbase building on your hw? even if you notice the migrator coming in from 2 jumps away... if your fleet is still early game (100-250 command points) and say... 4 jumps away... guess what? too bad. I know, cause I have had it used on me, and i have used it on other people...
the orkey first weapon upgrade has a very nice damage multiplier vs capital ships... and a orkey with that upgrade and a health upgrade will easily outlast a early fleet of a capital ship and lrms...
late game... dont expect your single migrator to win against a decked out planet with hangerbays, repair bays, and its own starbase... cause that is what it looks like you all are expecting it to do...
in the exact same way it would be stupid to ask your assult cruisers to attack a decked out planet with hangerbays, repair bays, and a starbase (I mean really... it doesnt take many fighters to take out assult cruisers wayy before they kill something serious)
If you want your vasari starbase to do some damage, you need to send in your fleet with it, and protect it with flack/jam weapons/soforth... and fight agaist the enemy fleet if you need to... in the same way, you need to protect your assult cruisers with flack/telekinetic bitch slap/flack burst, and fight agaist the enemy fleet if you need to...
the orky does not need any changes at all.
sorry for the double post... forums go boom when i try to hit the edit button on that post...
so...
edit: However... i still find it unfair that the non-tec races get turn upgrades to support cruisers that have non-omni-directional ablities(subverter, overseer, and domina), whiloe the tech dont get a equal turn upgrade to thier support cruisers that have non-omni-directional ablities (which with be both the hoho, and the ceilo)
annd... phase gates still act funky... there are a zillion threads about it...
Pbhead, you miss the point. Tordeo Cruisers et al > Orky for starbase killing. The Orkulus is supposed to be the Vasari starbase killer. No one is disputing the need for support ships to keep it alive. We're annoyed that the support fleet is what keeps it alive and does the vast majority of the work against other star bases. That and the Orkulus takes a huge time investment to be able to successfully assault other starbases, and then the battle drags on forever even if the opposing base has no support structures near by if it's Starbase vs Starbase.
Also, any fledgling starbase in your homeworld early game is a major pain in the butt. The Advent base is the worst in theory, as it can upgrade itself to be able to destroy your world as well as your ships. We're not talking about Starbase rushing... which is an entirely different scenario, we're talking about the Orkulus in general.
Anyhoo, I'll quit hijacking the thread onto Orkulus discussion now
As for the turn rates, I believe the TEC ships still come out ahead with their upgrades. Hoshinkos are badass, never complain about them
That is exactly what I meant Shadowhal.
Increasing the build time is the only viable option. Time is EVERYTHING when trying to establish one of your starbases in an hostile gravity well. A Vasari player trying to build a starbase in an hostile gravity well (to assault an already existing Vasari starbase) will be met by the enemy Orkulus in no time. Thats why bringing a fleet to protect your (under construction) starbase means nothing. The enemy Orkulus will forus fire/destroy the thing BEFORE it fires a single shot.
So, thats why I recommended:
- Level 1: Vasari builds starbases as if in a friendly gravity well. (All gravity well should be considered friendly when building a starbase.)
- Level 2: Vasari builds starbases as if in a friendly gravity well and reduces the build time by 75%. (Same has level 1 except with an increase in build rate to make sure that it gets a fighting chance against another Orkulus.)
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