I caught my co-worker reading a Jehova witness book which explains how to understand the bible. He said its good reading but he does not believe anything that they write cause they twists the words to their liking. I asked " What did he mean by that?"
He said in this book it says that God created Jesus Christ and he said he did not create Jesus Christ. He said that God was Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.
My opinion is that God is Jesus Christ Father as Jesus Christ is his son. So is the Holy Spirit God too or is God and Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit. I would like your opinion on this matter. I am an open minded person.
leauki posts: 19
Re: the highlighted, It's you who is harboring misunderstanding. God revealed that He is ONe, not three Gods.
I think the Trinity remains an obstacle to Jewish understanding, partly becasue belief in the Trinity carries with it belief in Jesus as the Messias. It's the implication embodied in belief in the Trinity that Jesus is the Second Person Who had come and fulfilled the Divine Mission of Old Testament Judaism that prompts denial of this.
We Catholics and non-Catholics who believe in the Trinity are monotheists, not polytheists. We believe in but ONe God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; but that He functions as Three distinct Persons, ----Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Pickin' and choosin' which teachings of Jesus to follow ain't what Christianity is about. Go back in history and check out Arianism...on this particular topic, you are more a follower of the heretical Arius' teachings than of Christ's.
leauki posts:
Non-Trinitarian Christian is an oxymoron...a complete contradiction in terms.
Christians are only those who follow Christ and His teachings, all of them.
Lula, I have to say, I'm in complete agreement with you on this one! That's good because this is a very big essential. The truth of Christ's deity and full equality with the Father is a nonnegotiable element of the Christian faith. John warned a pretty somber warning as did Paul about such things.
"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess NOT that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.... Whoever trangresses (GK "proagon" means runs ahead; leads) and abides not in the doctrine of Christ HAS NOT GOD. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has BOTH the Father and the Son (links both). if anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house and do not give him a greeting." 2 John 7-10
Paul said:
"Now I beseech you brethren mark them (watch) which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned and avoid them. For they are such, serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own appetites and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple." Galatians
Another thought:
Jesus did not correct Thomas when he address Him as "my Lord and My God!" In fact, He praised him for his faith (John 20:29). Jesus' reaction is inexplicable if He were NOT God.
And MasonM believes in one G-d and not a Trinity. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
I think it is you you haven't understood Unity.
This is CharlesCS posting:
When you see me, you see my father because I look, walk, talk and act like my father. That does not mean I am my father. This can be interpreted different ways KFC.
Exactly.
I am a bit tired of this way of thinking that whenever someone fails to believe the same (unproven and unprovable) things as (those) Christians they "haven't understood". Scientology coudl use the same arguments, that doesn't make anyone more right.
Here's the thing: I believe that Moses was a prophet but I don't care if anybody else believes it. (And neither am I convinced that they haven't understood" if they don't.) Some people were simply not there when Moses talked to G-d. For them, all of it is hear-say.
No that has nothing to do with it Charles.
It means they are of the same essense. They are equal. In Col 1:15 it says that Christ is the "image of the invisible God"
What does that mean? It means he is the duplicate. That's what incarnation means. It means God in the Flesh.
It also says in 1 Colossians "He (Jesus) is BEFORE all things and by Him all things consist" (v17) What does that mean? All things?
You don't say when speaking of your father... "I am IN my Father and my Father is IN me" do you?
You also don't say "when you see me you see my father "do you? You may be just like your mother, not your father.
In the OT God said "I am the Alpha and Omega, I am the first and the last."
In the book of Revelation Christ said twice "I am the Alpha and Omega, I am the first and the last."
How can that be? How can they both be the "first and the last?"
We have all been created in G-d's image. And G-d is invisible, for lack of a better term. What's so special about this one "duplicate" when we all have been created in G-d's image?
Maybe Jesus was exagerating?
LEAUKI POSTS:
You may believe that Moses was a prophet, but as per Deuteronomy 18:15-19, you do not believe what Moses said or told you to do....for you do not do it.
Deut. 18:15-19, "15 The Lord thy God will raise up to thee a PROPHET of thy nation and of thy brethren like unto me: him thou shalt hear:
16 As thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the assembly was gathered together, and saidst: Let me not hear any more the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see any more this exceeding great fire, lest I die. 17 And the Lord said to me: They have spoken all things well. 18 I will raise them up a prophet out of the midst of their brethren like to thee: and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. 19 And he that will not hear his words, which he shall speak in my name, I will be the revenger."
Verse 19 says that Moses will be the revenger of those who say they follow him, but do not do what he told them to do.
For those Jews who claim they are followers of Moses, Jesus Himself rejects this claim saying,
“Do not imagine that I am going to accuse you before the Father. You place your hopes on Moses and Moses will be your accuser. If you really believed him, you would believe me too, since it was I that he was writing about (Deut.15:18) but if you refuse to believe what he wrote, how can you believe what I say?”
kfc posts:
Thank you, thank you, thank you. It's been a while since I read 2 St.John 1: 7-10.
Very, very important to remember that those who obstinately deny the divinity of Christ are seducers, actually antichrists.
Yes, I do.
A PROPHET is by definition a person who hears the voice of G-d, not G-d Himself.
I do not believe that Jesus was a prophet or the son of G-d or G-d Himself.
I am entirely happy with the prospect of having to follow a prophet of G-d. But the age of prophecy is over and was over before Jesus was born.
Mind if I join in?
It is true that Jesus said that "I and my Father are one", aren't we also taught that we are to become one with Christ? By becoming one with Christ do we become Christ?
Everytime He could have taken the honor of a miracle or a point of doctrine for himself, he deferred to His Father who is in Heaven. He also pointed out that what He was not on earth to fulfill his goals, but those of His Father who sent him.
Can you find a single passage in the Holy Bible where Christ says that He is the Father? I can show you many where He says he isn't.
Good discussion! Thanks for posting it.
I was looking forward to hearing more from non-Trinitarian Christians!
Many Abrahamic religions and Zoroastrianism see prophets as manifestations of G-d. But they do not believe that the prophets are G-d.
I think perhaps the phrase is to be understood as representing G-d, in the sense of speaking for Him.
If he sais so specifically, I figure the issue is really quite clear. He either fullfills his goals or somebody else's. If he fullfills somebody else's goals, he and that person are not the same.
This is not addressed at me but I would love to see specific quotes.
This is true of the Old Testament prophets, Jesus Christ told us He was more than just a prophet. He told us He was God and for that He was ultimately crucified to death.
But your actions do not follow your words...Again, Deut. 18:15.....Just before Moses died, he told his followers a prophet would come and they should "hear" Him. That prophet Moses was prophesying was Christ. At least from what you have written here on JU, you steadfastly refuse to "hear" Christ.
When Christ said "when you see me you see the Father" is pretty close. But...Jesus did NOT come as the Father. He came as the Son of God and the son of man.
How do you explain these quotes..one from the OT and one from the NT?
Jehovah God said:
"I, even I am the Lord and beside me there is no Savior. Isa 43:11
Said of the baby Jesus:
"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord." Luke 2:11
"I am the Lord, that is my name and my glory will I not give to another, Isa 42:8
Jesus said:
"And now O father glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was." John 17:4
"Thus said the Lord the King of Israel and his redeemer, the Lord of hosts; "I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
"I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev 22:13
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending which is, and which was and which is to come, the Almighty." Rev 1:8
"Look unto me and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth for I am God and there is none else." Isa 45:22
Said of Jesus:
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS GOD. The WORD was made flesh (ginomai and means from one type of existence to another) and dwelt (skenoo) among us..." John 1:1, 14
How can you seriously not see that Jesus, according to the scriptures, is the OT Jehovah? Unless you've been taught "of men" otherwise? Jesus is God. It's complex, I agree. Hard to understand, agree as well. Someday we will be able to put this all together but right now all I can do is believe what the scriptures are saying. Jesus said when you see me you see the Father and no man can see God because God is spirit. Jesus is God in the Flesh.
"and on his thigh a name was written KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS." Rev 19:16
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his Kingdom to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henseforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this." Isaiah 9:6-7
Another thought...do you know that Jehovah is not mentioned anymore after Jesus came? While the OT has Jehovah God all thru it, the NT does not. Why? Because Jesus is Jehovah! "When you see me you see the Father."
Two different meanings of "saviour"? One is G-d, the ultimate such, the other the Messiah, G-d's representative?
As for why "Jehova" is not mentioned after Jesus was born... that's simply because the "New Testament" is written in Greek, not Hebrew. And the Hebrew text doesn't mention "Jehova" either, but a word with those consonants and only in some parts of the Bible.
nice try Leauki!
Hello Parated2K,
Good to see you posting here on JU.
I was going to respond to this but I see KFC already has.
Jesus said, "When you see Me, you see the Father" is the one I was thinking of.
She also asks some probing questions.
Hey KFC and Lulapilgrim! It's great to be back! How have you been?
Ok, from the niceties to the Nice-ities ;~D
True, He did say that, but you yourself go on to say that He did not come "as the Father", He came as the Son. He also said many times that the doctrine He taught was not of Him, but His Fathar who sent him. He also said that He was not there to fulfill His goals, but the goals of His Father who sent him. If it is not His, He can't be the Father.... and as I said before, never once claimed to be.
~~~~~~~~~
Ok, in answering these questions I'm giving you my own beliefs on the topics, you are free to accept them or reject them... Since I'm not God, nor Jesus, I'm not qualified to tell you what to believe. As always, don't take my word for anyting, turn to our Heavenly Father in prayer, in the name of Jesus Christ for the confirmation of all truth.
Jehovah God said: "I, even I am the Lord and beside me there is no Savior. Isa 43:11
Simple, Jehovah is not The Father, but Jesus. you say that "Jehova God" said that, but out of the 4 times the word "Jehovah" and the 693 times the word "God" appears in the OT, never once does the term "Jehovah God" appear.
Even Trinitarians don't believe that the Father is the savior, so this quote in Isaiah should settle the argument.
Said of the baby Jesus: "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord." Luke 2:11
Right, the savior, Christ the Lord was born. Unless you are going to say that the Father is the savior... which can't be since we know that Jesus is the ONLY name under heaven by which mankind can be saved. If Jesus is the only name, then The Father isn't the one that will save us.
Jehovah God said: "I am the Lord, that is my name and my glory will I not give to another, Isa 42:8
Once again, "Jehovah God" isn't ever used in the OT. However, the Lord simply said that He gives His glory to anyone. I don't see how The Lord saying He won't give His glory to another means that He is the Father
Jesus said: "And now O father glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was." John 17:4
This is blatantly obvious. I can't see how it can be any more obvious to anyone. He addresses Father, then asks His Father to glorify Him with "YOUR" (as in not His) "own self". Which Jesus had "WITH" The Father (not "as" the Father) before the world was. If Jesus was with the Father before the world was, then He wasn't The Father
Jehovah God said: "Thus said the Lord the King of Israel and his redeemer, the Lord of hosts; "I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
Right, "The Lord", "King of Israel" "Redeemer" and "Lord of Hosts" are all titles for Jesus. The Father never uses any of them to describe Himself. We don't worship Jesus,
These are examples where I will say that I understand why it people believe that it means God and Jesus are one. However, you can't pick and choose the passages of scripture that back your argument and ignore those that don't. The fact still remains that Jesus constantly said, "not of me" and "of my Father who sent me", along with other references to the Father not being Jesus.
So my question to you is, how to you explain all those examples?
To believe Jesus you have to accept that He spoke of His Father as separate from Himself. Are you saying He lied? Of course not.
The Father is the God we worship and there is no other. Jesus is Hi only begotten son, who was the creator of all things and our savior.
I do accept that Jesus is the OT Jehovah. I also know that Jesus, while in the flesh, constantly said that He was sent by the Father, not by Himself. He constantly said that the doctrine was of His Father who sent Him, not of Himself. So again, how can Jesus be the Father when He said He isn't?
Another point, if Jesus is God in the flesh, how could Jehovah be Jesus before He was born of Mary? My answer would be simple, Jesus didn't start existing when He was born of Mary, He existed and (among other names and titles) went by Jehovah in his Pre flesh life. Or do you believe that Jehovah was flesh in the OT? (That question isn't a challenge, I'm asking you your opinion of that).
All those wonderful words and none of them contradict what Jesus said about His relationship to His Father.
That is among the things we agreed on here, that Jehovah was Jesus in the OT times. But again, nowhere in the Bible does it say "Jehovah God".
As I said at the beginning, you are free to believe anything you want, as for myself, I will believe what Jesus said... and Jesus said:
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do anothing of myself; but as my bFather hath ctaught me, I dspeak these things. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and acame from God; neither came I of myself, but he bsent me. 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my aFather that bhonoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: John 8: 28, 42, 54
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do anothing of myself; but as my bFather hath ctaught me, I dspeak these things.
Most interesting. I'll comment later!
Hey TEd, nice to see you as well. Missed you!!!
I guess I'm not following you here. You say that Jesus is Jehovah right? Well that's part of the Trinity. We agree on that. But what you're saying is that Jesus isn't God? If he's the creator of all things doesn't that make him God? You're saying there is God who is outside of Jesus/Jehovah? The father who is God is NOT Jehovah? Do I have this right?
You also say that we are to worship the Father but not Jesus? What about this one:
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus. Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God......wherefore God also has highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name; that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow all things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Philip 2:5-11
This is worship at the pinnacle.
As far as the "separate" goes that's the part of the mystery of the Trinity. They are one God but they are three distinct personalities. Some use the analogy of the egg...yolk, shell and whites all make up one egg. You have the eggwhite, the eggshell and the egg yolk but together they make up the total egg. That's close for me.
Of course. Let's look closer at what Jesus said in John 5 (because I'm teaching that right now here). Here's the text:
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him because he not ony had broken the Sabbath but said also that God was His Father making Himself equal with God. Then Jesus answered and said to them, Verilly verily I say to you, The Son can do nothing of himself but what he sees the Father do; for what things soever he does these also does the Son likewise. For the Father loves the son and shows him all things and himself does and He will show him greater works than these that you may marvel. For as the Father raises up the dead and quickens them even so the Son quickens whom he will. For the Father judges no man but has committed all judgment to the Son. That all men should honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which has sent him." v18-23
Jesus made three claims of deity here. First he claims He does what God does. He does not work independently of the Father. Only someone who is equal can do everything He does. This is a clear declaration of divinity. Notice he didn't deny the claim in v18. In fact his "verily verily or truly truly" is forceful and emphatic. When he said in 12:45 "he that sees me sees him that sent me" he's saying to see Christ act is to see God act.
The Jews understood he was claiming to be God and it was an outrageous act of blasphemy. If they had misunderstood him surely he would have immediately and vehemently denied making such a claim. He never did.
The second claim is that as the Father so the Son gives life to whom He wills. In the Jewish belief ONLY God had power to raise the dead. Both Jesus and God of the OT are a source of life.
The third claim that he is going to judge. In Gen 18:25 it says that God is the judge of the earth and here we see the Son will receive the same honor given to the Father. When Christ receives the honors which are given to God it's not as if it's diminshed or given to another but rather enhanced. The Father is glorified when the Son is exalted. Christ receives these honors to the "glory of God." Phil 2:11. They are so complete as Father and Son that one could not dishonor the Son and thing they are honoring God. That is where the Jewish leaders were very mistaken. They did not honor the Son therefore they did not honor God.
Ok I'll buy that but Jehovah is clearly God in the OT. He is the I AM that I AM of Ex 3:14 Since this is a big essential and I'm glad that we do agree here.
You're trying to separate the two. That can't be done. The Son does NOT work independently of the Father. They work in tandem because they are one. That's why Jesus said "to see me is to see the Father". That's the mystery. They are one God with diff roles. The Father saves us thru the giving of His son. But again go to Philip 2 and you can see it says "Christ being in the form (Gk morphe) of God (very essence) thought it not robbery to be equal (isos) with God." It's like God putting on a costume.
Have you ever heard of Parabola?
The perfect harmony that characterizes the joint working of the Father and the Son stems from the absolute unity of essence that they share (John 17:21). Because they are one in being, one eternal God. By accusing Jesus of wrongdoing the Jewish leaders were doing exactly what they accused Jesus with doing, impugning the holy nature of God Himself.
Yes, Jesus is Diety, He is the one who created the earth. The doctrine of The Godhead is that God the Father, Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost make up the Godhead. Three seperate beings, one in purpose.
As for the mysteries, yes there are many things about God we do not understand. In our human state we cannot fathom eternity. However, we were given the scriptures for a reason. What is in there, we were mean to understand.
I do understant the doctrine of The Trinity, I just don't accept it.
You're almost there Ted and I don't really have a hard time here except the "three seperate beings" because that violates that God is "one." You make it sound like there are three Gods, not one. I'm glad you believe that Jesus is God because many don't and that's the crux of the matter anyhow.
Well you're the first person I've ever met who said they could completely understand it.
LOL, now did I say "completely"? ;~D
Parated2k,
As far as the Scriptural citations in post 44, they can be understood by believihng there is but one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and that He functions as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
There is another Scriptural passage that says "with God all things are possible." Hmmm, that leaves out us placing any limitations on God as far as God doing what He wants to do.
And from Genesis we know one thing that God promised He would do---send a Redeemer...
The Catholic Church calls God sending Himself as a divine man, Jesus, the Incarnation. Jesus the Christ is God Incarnate. That God came to earth to redeem humankind from eternity of Hell by sending Himself as His Son, from whom proceeds the Holy Ghost is something I don't waste my time or energy questioning.
It's a mystery I don't fully understand and believe by Faith.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
