Please bear with the complex title of my post, hopefully I can tie it all together. Not wanting to go into the long history of Borders and Zone(s) of Control (ZoC) in strategy games I wanted to present some ideas here and see what everyone thought. Generally speaking, Borders and ZoC pretty much come from the established urban centers that we create. In the Civ games the Borders grow larger, due to the strength of generated by Culture but basically without Cities there is no formula for extending a ZoC let alone a Border outward and forward.
Seeing though how this game can be played from the map perspective if needed/wanted, then one could hope that the features on that map (which are representative of the world at large and can have proper names for them) could play a factor in perhaps setting up Borders and the like.
There are a myriad examples of this in books, movies and even real life. Geographical features (rivers, mountains, deserts, forests etc.) are often used as places where Borders are decided upon. I wonder if this is something that could be implemented in Elemental. A couple examples of this could be:
1. You are getting your little Empire established and you have 3 cities within close proximity of each other but there is a large mass of land ahead of you that you would love to just have all for yourself. Now instead of trying to rush the average settler units out to lay claim to them directly, perhaps an option could exist to "plant a flag" as it were and lay claim to a piece of territory. Perhaps using the map itself to draw a line of demarcation and lay claim to that territory. One could even use Geographical features to act as markers. So you lay claim to all of the land between here and the Sea of 'Y'or the Great Forest of 'X' or the Mountains of 'Z' and then your Borders change to accommodate that but your ZoC still stays within those cities you have (maybe stretched out a little further because of your claim) and it gives you time to catch up to your new borders. Granted this sounds like it could be abused and over exaggerated (what with people laying claim to the whole world and whatnot) but laying claim to a piece of land is one thing but actually having control over it is another. So you could lay claim to all the land in the world but unless there is something physically of yours on it, chances are it's just a waste of hot air. That leads into my second example.
2. Now you encounter forces of another empire and you each exchange pleasantries with one another. Perhaps during a dialogue script or maybe as a diplomatic option, you can set formal boundaries between your two empires. It could be something as simple as the ruler of the other empire recognizes the scope of the lands you claim and you two formally set borders as such. Playing off on that, if the two of you met through simple exploration of one another it would be a solid way to claim land without having a city or other physical structure present, for the both of you. He could then claim all of the land up to your border as a diplomatic tit for tat, becoming mutually beneficial for the both of you. This is seen as mostly happening when you are both physically quite distant from the main cities of your empire and having a large plot of empty space between your areas.
3. An extension of this would be if empires are right on top of each other and a more formal border is suggested. This feeds into the geography aspect as a set of formal boundaries between your two empires becomes established based on a mountain range, or a river or a great forest and the map is redrawn with the borders established to reflect that along the geographical lines.
4. Not to mention that these ideas can lend themselves into a more robust diplomacy system. Say you are the winning party of a war and you accept a peace offering. Perhaps as part of the treaty of peace you could demand land all the way up to the River 'X', or we want the Mountains of 'Y' (and whatever precious minerals they have) or you could just draw a line as to what land(s) you do want for peace. Conversely, perhaps you wish to gift land(s) to a faction for whatever reason. Perhaps wandering mercenaries help you out in a war and you reward them with a gift of land for them to set up their own kingdom that would be allied with yours (Rohan being a good example of this).
Since the interface uses a map, I wonder how difficult it would be to put actual map coordinates onto the map itself. That way you could specify in treaty negotiations or border negotiations where exactly the border would be or what land you are seeking to acquire?
Outposts, are another interesting idea and they could be incorporated into this easily. I loved the idea in MOO 2 the idea of building outpost ships as a way to lay claim to a planet without building a full colony ship and establishing a formal colony on a planet. Outposts were useful in claiming systems that were predominately gas giants and asteriods but they were also a good way to lay claim to a planet you wanted but couldn't quite get to. I would love to see Outposts like that in Elemental and they can further lend to the idea of having Borders without necessarily having cities right on top of one another.
Say you Scout ahead and find a nice geographical choke point or a good place to set your borders while you build your empire. Perhaps you can create an Outpost unit(s) and send them to those points and 'Plant your flag' as it were. It would be a formal military presence and would generate its own ZoC and color scheme of your own borders. As part of the laying claim to land idea, you could draw your borders from where your cities are now and have them end at the outposts you set up. Any Empire coming up to those Outposts would see a formal presence of your Empire and could ignore them and proceed onward or leave them be and recognizing the claim to your lands up to those Outposts.
Eventually those Outposts could be upgraded to Cities or Fortresses of their own if chosen.
How does this all fits into Minor Tech? I love the idea of random tech but also a need for formal research as well. However, Outposts could exist outside the norm and be truly on the frontier. As such the need to adapt on the frontier is great. Perhaps an Outpost could generate a chance to produce one random minor tech just from having to rely on necessity and being out in the field. Some examples could be they learn to adapt bows or crossbow range based on their tinkerings or maybe they they learn to extend their food supplies or maybe they improve the quality of shoeing horses giving them a speed or movement advantage, or maybe they come to a better understanding of tactics based on their actions in the field. These are minor Eureka moments and little things like that give a boost to those who want some randomness to their techs (making the world believable) and the need to have a formal tech tree to proceed with the game.
Hopefully this post manages to make sense. Sorry for the length but as this idea was forming it kept leading to more and more things which, I hope, are interrelated. Thoughts?
Interesting idea. It would be nice if borders where negotiable like in real life, but i think creating AI that is able to intelligently recognize ever changing borders may be a tad bit difficult.
I like the idea of 'claiming lands' without actually 'owning' them. One of the annoying things about Civ was how the AI constantly 'snuck' through my 'borders' to seize territory in the early land grab stage. I usually had to strategically place my cities in order to link up my borders to prevent AI rushing through to grab land from me.
Instead of a scout unit claiming land, i think outposts would be suffice. Building an outpost would create an area of control which you lay claim to but don't actually 'own' or get any productive bonuses. AI that wanted the land would either have to negotiate with you for the territory or go to war to contest the land.
But i think outposts probably should not produce anything. It can be upgraded to forts, castles and fortresses, but in order to be upgraded to cities you should need a proper settler unit.
IIRC MoM had outposts back in the day. It's not a new concept for sure but a good one that hopefully will be implemented. One of my favorite ways to play civ was to use culture for ZOC. Just too fun.
R,
nacho
Sounds a bit complicated from a programming aspect...especially with the AI's. However, I love the idea. It would be pretty cool to see something like that.
Yeah, I also loved using culture to expand my empire in Civ. Usually going to war was actually much faster but often times i got tired of having to shuffle my troops from the cities to the frontlines.
I think that being able to claim territory without necessarily having a city would be great. However, we also have to remember that the huge empty spaces would be wasteland, due to the lore of the game. Maintaining an outpost there would therefore be difficult.
After seeing some of the footage at PAX (big thanks to daedalao for that footage https://forums.elementalgame.com/362984) it looks like that as you the Channeler go through the world one of the ways you can 'cleanse' it is to imbue essence to the ground, literally below you, to make it habitable for people to come and set up shop. This has the effect of cleansing the land as well as extending your borders out. But that's only one way to bring life back into the world. To Ratya's point about empty spaces of wasteland, I agree that claiming and maintaining such land would be difficult. Looking at the media on the site, specifically https://www.elementalgame.com/Screenshots/Elemental_Spellcraft_Life.png it looks like we will be able to research ablilities to create fertile areas within our sphere's of influence. For the purposes of borders and ZoC, I wonder just how far our sphere of influence stretches out?
Sure in the beginning I bet it is small and as you increase your power it grows but how about taking a more direct approach. Say you as the channeler defeat a ruin close to your lands and by doing so you cleanse the area of that taint. What if that land gets restored because of your actions, comes to life again and because you were the one doing it has a residue of your energy all around it that, while not too great, is large enough that it could spread out and if close enough to your domain becomes a part of it; thereby extending your sphere of influence.
Or perhaps you come upon a shard in your neck of the woods; I wonder if one of the abilities could be to imbue your essence to that shard and restore a portion of the earth to fertile splendor. Then with the land alive again, perhaps those actions lend a tacit understanding that this is your land?
Granted, someone could just show up and plop a city or outpost on to that oh so wonderful land that is now green and fertile but this process could at least nominally showcase the idea of borders without necessarily having a city two steps away from the edge of your border.
I guess my concerns is trying to have something more organic or fluid when it comes to borders and what an AI could do to recognize them without me having to build a city just to claim a piece of territory. We know that there are ways borders could be extended without having a city there (Gal Civ's outposts as well as MOO 2's outposts come to mind).
I also like the idea that he who restoreth the land, somehow can have first dibs and claiming it.
And to moondoggiee's point of outposts producing anything, I agree that they by themselves shouldn't. I was just trying to think of a way to have the spontaneity that some love about random 'Eureka' moments when it comes to research (and an Outposts necessity being the mother of invention mantra seems to fit) with the need for a focused research design.
Sure I may be asking for too much and maybe the AI is just not that flexible. But hey the worst that can happen is someone says no right?
I also really like this idea, but I'm not sure that an AI would be very capable at land negotiations and all. It's too... continuous and the goals/advantages/disadvantages associated with it vague.
I do really want to be able to claim land without building a full-fledged city, though. It would be really nice to be able to set up military outposts out in the barren wastelands (no essence imbuement necessary!), and doing so would effectively claim that portion of land. It would also be neat (but I don't expect this) if we could tweak the shape of the land area claimed by such an outpost. Radial spreading of influence/borders is passé Basically it'd be nice to be able to claim a wide but relatively narrow swath, bringing a mountain pass and a ford under your control...
However, making a claim to territory in such a way would have to have a price - otherwise everyone would just rush out and put outposts everywhere. They should have a hefty initial construction cost, and a constant upkeep cost. After all, if they're out there isolated in the middle of a wasteland, they'll need all their food and such shipped to them. So unlike cities, which will hopefully eventually be productive in some way or another, military outposts would be a constant drain with no prospects of ever being productive. Their only purposes would be to claim land and to maintain a military presence there.
Space Empires V used a system KIND of like that. In one of the menus one could put down which systems were "theirs" by selecting them radio button style from the star map. It never seemed to work that great as none of the Civilizations seemed to care, but this idea sounds quite nice. Maybe with some limits of course, otherwise people would claim a lot. Maybe if you dont settle the land or maintain a presence, something bad could happen. As well as only being able to "claim" unclaimed land based on your Soverign's power? Maybe even a "general" spell?
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