So your position is that the government cannot be trusted to run an efficient health care plan?  Ok! Great! The current health care reforms with a public option are for you then.  If you do not like or do not trust the government to run health care, then simply do not buy it.   Keep your existing private insurance.  The public option is simply an OPTION. If you don't like it do not use it.

I always find it strange how some people rail against the incompetance of the government on one side and overlook things they normally praise (ie the military).  The military is the largest government run program.  Should it be privatized?  What about the police?  Privatize them?  Firemen?

So the government can effectively control the military, and control thousands of nuclear warheads, but obviously any government health care plan would be horrible because it is run by the government...

I just think prominent democratic figures (beside Obama) aren't nearly as important and need not be defended the way someone like Beck/Limbaugh is. Point out some crazy shit a progressive said and at least in my circle of friends we'll call it crazy along side you. Try posting a thread with some of the outrageous Olbermann stunts or diatribes and see how many people rise up to defend it, I seriously doubt many will care, other than the conservatives who jump on it to bash the guy.

You guys need to disassociate the information from the personality. The fact that people here are still linking Glenn Beck's site in spite of his antics which are clearly eccentric and off-putting instead of going to a more presentable source which corroborates thestory cuts to the heart of the issue.

This is speculation on my part, but given that Obama won the election by a significant amount and Fox is still getting better ratings than the other 'liberal' networks I'm inclined to believe it shows a large number of progressives are getting their news from other sources. For better or worse that means the internet. I mention that because I just really don't have the strong feelings towards any liberal news personalities that you guys seem to have with yours. I rarely see Olbermann lionized, and if he had a tea party I might send him a dress and some stuffed dolls, but I certainly wouldn't go chant in front of a camera for him.

That's not to say that there aren't plenty of people out there who would, but overall I think liberals just don't put anyone on a pedestal the way you guys seem to.

I don't doubt that there's people gaming the system, but that's inevitable with any system. The 9/11 charity debacle is a perfect example of how reprehensible people can be especially since charity systems tend to be inherently poorly policed. That doesn't mean, however, that the purpose of welfare is thwarted, it just means that, assuming investigation wouldn't cost so much that it's a major net loss, the qualifications of welfare recipients need to be more effectively enforced. I'm sure it's a very complicated issue when you go through the technical aspects of it.

I just view people gaming the system the way department stores view 'shrinkage.' You need to establish acceptable thresholds and act accordingly when they're crossed, not just close up shop.

Sure don't buy it, but you still pay for it. So, could you blame people for not wanting to pay twice. Soon enough the govt. "plan" will be bloated beyond belief. We can alway do what Norwood, Ontario does and have a lottery to get a doctor. Google it yourself.

Actually, leftists are out on the streets with their hands out waiting for someone to fill it.

This presidency is already becoming a laughing stock.  In record time, I might add.

Sadly the statistics I was able to find don't show the age of the recipient, their marital status, or the age of the children, but a single mother with two or more children getting more benefits than a married couple with one child doesn't sound all that nefarious to me.

What are we even talking about here though? Maybe I missed something you said in the mix of everyone else's replies, but you don't seem to be saying we should tear the whole system down and I'm not saying there's no abuse going on. It doesn't really seem like we disagree on anything here, other than you probably think there's more abuse going on than I realize, but I don't fancy myself an expert on the level of abuse anyway, I'm quite willing to admit there's probably more than I think there is.

Polls aside... (quotes are paraphrasing)

"I will reach across party lines for true bipartisanship."  Here, republicans, here is a heaping serving of dog crap.  Eat it.  When the republicans don't take a bite, they are berated for not embracing bipartisanship.

"The war on terror is over.  Troops will be coming home."  Why, Mr. President, are you about to send more troops to Afghanistan and are now referencing this again as the "war on terror?"  Maybe W was indeed doing the right thing, and it wasn't until you were in his position that you realized it.

Don't even get me started on the continuous referencing of the peaceful, educated, protestors as rioters and un-American.  Or the Health Care debacle.  Or the attempts to equalize Americans through economy.  Equality is not determined strictly through your wealth, but it's disgusting that Mr. President wants to put a dollar figure on it.  Or the appalling behavior by NBC, CBS, ABC, etc. that continue to coddle this presidency in hopes to get at the money he is printing.

No, I am not a Fox slappy.  There are times when their obvious bias towards the right is just as distasteful to me.  But they will not hesitate to call out their fellow conservatives if they do something stupid.  They are the closest thing to unbiased we have, unfortunately.

Sorry.  This president has bitten off more than he could chew.  He went in thinking this was the ultimate popularity contest and once he was in office, he was slapped with a massive dose of reality and he's in panic mode right now.  He will continue to drag out health care as long as he can because it's a huge issue and it is hiding all of the other crap he's feeding America right now.

W did not leave the country in the greatest shape, agreed.  But Obama has sent us into a tailspin, and most people backing him keep waiting for him to get the plane under control.  Sorry people, the only ones that can do that are yourselves.  Keep relying on the government, particularly this government, and you will be wondering soon how we turned into a third world country.

Heh.  Didn't know I was feeling so animated about all this.

Peace, love, harmony!

Oh, I almost forgot.  Since I am unhappy with this president and the freefall that this country is in, that makes me a racist.

/facepalm

 HR 3200  "America’s Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009"
 Sec. 1233. Advance care planning consultation.

I have read this section several times. Sometimes when I read it I get the impression that it is a counseling of options.

However other times when I read it I get the impression that these consultations give the council the power to influence what care a person will receive. The fact that the entire thing is written in so much legalese that even lawmakers admit to not understanding it make me suspicious.

I invite everyone to read it for themselves and make their own decisions.

I too have read it.  You have to expand the meaning of the words very very very far to think there is anything that suggests "death panels".   Ask yourself a common sense question. If these actually were death panels, would that be political suicide?  I think the obvious answer is yes.

There is no way the current administration or any previous Republican administrations would advocate for death panels. Even if they truly wanted them, establishing death panels would not be politically viable.

Which "lawmakers" admit to not understanding it?  Grassley? Mostly ones with big R's in front of their names correct?

Really?  I do not recall anyone in this thread calling you a racist. 

I would venture a guess that if you think the country is in a freefall then that makes you a staunch Republican and thats about it.

That is good.  I do not recall saying anyone here called me a racist. 

There are many liberals out there who believe and claim just because people disagree with Obama or protest against items he is presenting, that they are racist.  Sorry that I had to fill in that gap.

And no, I am not a republican.  Republicans are typically just as bad as Democrats.

Let's assume they'll be between a GS-13 and 15, living in Washington DC. This table shows what they can expect to make:

EFFECTIVE JANUARY 2008

Annual Rates by Grade and Step

* Rate limited to the rate for level IV of the Executive Schedule (5 U.S.C. 5304 (g)(1)).

http://www.opm.gov/oca/08tables/html/dcb.asp

The department of defense pay calculator isn't working at the moment so I'll have to take your word for it on 174,000-184,000 for generals, but it seems plausible. Bear in mind that figure is going to be adjusted by location and generally when you hear military pay estimates you tally the health care benefits, housing allowance, etc. into the total and housing allowances, per diems, etc. will vary dramatically based on location. Luckily though most generals are either in Washington DC so there's not going to be the same amount of variation there was when I was moving around the country as a senior airman.

Here's a link which is supposed to let you calculate the salaries of military folk and adjusts for location and benefits, but it's not working for me. If any of you guys can get it to function post your results here.  Remember a general/admiral is O-7 to O-10, but I *think* most of the people making decisions in the pentagon are going to be at least O-8 or O-9.

http://www.defenselink.mil/militarypay/mpcalcs/Calculators/RMC.aspx