While some conservatives claim that Obama wants to kill your granny I hesitate to accept that as Obamas sole reason for pushing the health care reform.
From the private insurers point of view it makes perfect sense to oppose the reform ... if they didn't, they'd face an immense decline in profits if either the government option provides better care or if regulations bar insurers from avoiding costs by their current methods.
But it's a bit too simplicistic to merely claim that one party acts out of altruism (or a loathing of old ladies) and the other out of greed.
So, what do you think are the driving motives in this dispute ?
(Note that I don't ask you what you think is the better solution.)
Pro (Motives of the health care reform advocates):
Con (Motives of the health care reform opponents):
Two key issues that make the health care reform necessary in the eyes of the proponents are quailty and cost.
Quality has been discussed to death and information (and misinformation) is freely available.
Cost is harder to estimate - one simply can't understand what estimated costs of trillions of dollars over decades means for your paycheck. So I started a different thread where I want to compare the personal average cost of health care in different countries.
For example: German average gross income is about €2,500. After deductions (including health insurance) a single person without kids gets to keep about €1,500.
And what can germans do with that money in germany? Why, buy beer, of course. €1,500 get you 1,200 litre of high quality Pilsener beer - twice as much if you don't care about quality and go for the cheap labels.
Health care costs: €185 per month (currently $264)
Cheers!
Let's presume 100% of people pay their income taxes.
Who's working & being cured when sick? Those who need it.
That's the Canadian model of Universally available public option.
Nowadays, the Corporate industries are aiming to infiltrate such a system by implementing a network of private clinics. Doctors are hired, staff is being used, offices are managed, resources are **extracted** from the regular public hospitals network.
Who's STILL working & being cured when sick? Those who can afford it. But they are STILL paying their income taxes, aren't they? Sure? Absolutely? Provincial & Federal? Weekly? On their pay-checks? Filed yearly for verifications? Deductibles? Capital gains & other plans to escape state(s) taxing? Do they drive on roads built by all? Do their kids receive education? Do they remain healthy or receive care when they STILL need to?
Then we're all (as in, your everyone terminology) double-charged for the same service. And the theft is on the illicit alternate system of industrialized privately owned & operated for profits system.
Since, income taxes are expenditures collectively ***already*** invested into the PUBLIC option.
You immigrate here, you're covered.
You're poor & unemployed, you're covered.
Because **I** & my neighbors pay taxes which are managed by state for more than just health care of everyone.
Texas capped the malpractice insurance to 1/2 mil. But the cost didn't come down. Hehe.
Not everyone has an income.
And some income isn't even taxed.
That is still being argued in courts by LAWYERS and the ACLU, who are afraid of losing all that money.
Surely, the decision will not come until the U.S. Supreme makes a ruling. (Months to Years down the road of argument, and after some more lawyers stretch the argument out making money all along the way.)
True, the state did place that cap in Texas courts (not in effect yet: see above).
Call it an Utopic dream or the idealistic hope of inclusive & fair societies, everyone should *EARN* a taxable income. And all legal incomes should be taxed.
We already live in that society. Everyone already should earn a taxable income.
But some people don't.
But the utopian society where everybody *SHOULD* earn a taxable income already exists.
Florida passed Tort reform in 2003 and it has reduced auto insurance a small bit. However, the Lawyers are still pissing vinegar and it's likely to be overturned by some ex-lawyer judge on consititutional grounds.
I like the one where people can be responsible for themselves and their family........and government can just provide for infrastructure and national defense......kinda like the framers intended.
Canadian here.
Okay healtcare in canada is not the best in the world and anyone can know this. But I do know that the top 5 contries with the best healtcare rated systems in the world are Japan, Taiwan, Switserland, Germany and soem otehr contry I forget. All of those contries prior to havign the now best heatl care in the world had private for profit healthcare systems like the U.S. currently does. In their process for fixing their healthcare they all looked at teh Canadian healtcare system as others around the world and based their new system on those example whill fixing the problems they had. So they wetn from beignt he worth to beign the best prety much, all of those contries adopted healthcare systems were everyone was covered equaly.
in Canada our healtcare has 2 major problems, one is a Canadian problem the otehr is caused by the U.S. havign a for profit healthcare system.
Problem 1: Beauracracy, paper pushers, the Canadian problem, these represent a to substantical amount of cost. Thsi section of the healt care department in Canada is absorbing to many funds thus reducing the funds available for treatment. Currently last I saw in Canada the beauracracy is consumming 15% of the healtcare funds. In comparison Switserland onyl has a beauracracy cost of about 5% of the healtcare fund. They have the msot stramlined beauracracy.
Problem 2: Shortage of doctor, the U.S. problem, canada is experiencing a shortage of doctors for the simple reason that Canada is not the contry were doctors have the biggest paycheck. We can't afford such a big paycheck if we want to be able to care for all. However the U.S. is the BIGGEST pay check int he world if you are a doctor because it's a for profit privately own uncontroled system. Competition is feirce for for hospitals to higher doctors and give them the biggest fattes paycheck. Hell that is what you pay for the most in the U.S. system is the paycheck of your doctor and not the threatment he is giving you. So for that doctors beign people they go to the U.S. to make mroe money. So in the end if the U.S. were to reform their healtcare system and bring it under control it would fix half the problems in Canada.
The opposition to Obamas healtcare reform liek to point at the flaws of the Canadian system but they sure won't tell you what causes some of those flaws. And why would they, your best interest is not their best intrest, taking your money is their best interest. Private healtcare is not there to serve you it's there to get payed by you. Their just like you TV and Phone compagny if you don't pay they cut you lose, if you need healtcare that means your sicks and dieing and got no money they throuw you out in the street to die. Public healtcare system is there to serve you like the police or the fire department. Their like a family or none lucrative organisation, they will help you the best they can and trat you equaly to everyone else.
I can tell you I prefer a public healtcare system over a privete for profit one. Even if I have to wait atleast I will recive threatment and get taken cared ofve.
Food for thought: Cuba has a better healthcare system then the U.S. and it's a 3rd world contry. Were as the U.S. system is one of the worst rated if not the worst.
In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2004, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 34.3% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 50.3%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 85%, leaving only 15% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth (total net worth minus the value of one's home), the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 42.2%. Table 1 and Figure 1 present further details drawn from the careful work of economist Edward N. Wolff at New York University (2007).
7.5%
In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands.
That supports my claim that not everybody contributes. But it doesn't answer my question.
Reconcile this with the absurdity of the perspective of the left presented by Republicans. Isn't it the Hollywood elite, the media, the college professors, and a number of other people who make enough to suffer from taxation who are the elites, and the hard-working, god fearing, gun-toting blue collar Americans who support the Republicans? I envy you though, every time I eat my cake I don't have it anymore.
Shall we see if we can find stats on who voted for whom?
I remember that Draginol posted statistics that showed the percentage of tax payers and who they voted for.
Even if you do propose it's the poor people who don't pay taxes who are voting democrat (which I highly doubt) it'll only highlight the absurdity of the liberal elitism claim which you didn't put forward but is common sentiment in the conservative backlash culture.
If that isn't the proof that performance at work requires money & healthy conditions, nothing else ever will. We either live to be exploited or HAVE TO suffer trying to gain enough to simply survive when a specific 1% holds control of resources that most (as in extremely VAST majority) can't afford.
Your stashed fortunes already killed plenty.
You americans now have to opportinity to define anew what should be important in your society. To decide what is your 'right'. You have arguments on both sides of the issue and it's an important issue. It's important to discuss it, it's important to discuss about what values are important and it's important to be informed before you commit to a path.
I don't accept this premise. Someone's political beliefs are not the same as the manifestation of a society's moral beliefs.
When we frame the argument as you suggest, it simply lets the takers rationalize their support of policies that confiscate property from one group to give to themselves.
In the United States, wealth is certainly concentrated at the top. On the other hand, 40%+ of Americans pay zero net federal income taxes.
Under our current health insurance system, 13 out of 15 people have health insurance and nearly all of them pay for it either through their job or on their own. Under a tax-paid system, it changes to 9 out of 15 paying for it because 6 out of 15 people don't pay for federal taxes.
Now, that said, there are a LOT of other reasons, which I outlined in another post, not to support HR 3200 which is the actual bill under consideration.
I find it troubling to see the proponents of tax payer health insurance trying to take the moral high ground. Government programs are neither moral or immoral (they're not supposed to be anyway). They're supposed to be utilitarian.
Deep down, I'm always suspicious of any government programs that meddle in the private sector because the government is much easier to manipulate than the free market.
Governments, even democracies, are not particularly accurate representations of their populations but rather a reflection of the desires of the most politically astute insiders.
Having a belief doesn't make you moral. Actually doing something does. People who pay no federal income taxes who support having their health care paid for by other people are certainly not any more moral than a person who does pay taxes objecting to having their money taken and given to someone else.
BTW, the top 20% may have 50% of the "financial wealth" (though I'm dubious on how that amount is measured as it's extremely subjective).
But the top 20% pay about 80% of the federal taxes. (http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/250.html) an amount that isn't subjective.
So one can easily make the argument that the wealthiest are already paying, even by the left's highly subjective valuation, more than their fair share of the taxes right now.
Apparently, it was so important to 'discuss what values are important' that the bill had to be passed before the August recess, before anyone, including our elected representatives, had the opportunity to know what 'values' were in it. Since that effort to ram it through sight unseen failed, the somber calls from Obama & his various shills for 'vigorous but calm discussion and debate' and to 'get it right' ring as hollow as anything I've ever heard. How he thinks he has any credibility on this issue is beyond me.
Also, most of the rich movie stars are NOT republicians.
Just want to repeat this:
20% of the people own 50% of the financial wealth and contribute 80% of the federal taxes.
That is true and it manifests in your society in many paradoxical actions - on a local, personal level as well as on a global, geopolitical level. I don't want to elaborate because that will only invite hate speech. A rather harmless one: Freedom is (as I understand it) one of the american key values - yet you have the world's highest prison population, even higher than russia, which has plenty of political prisoners.
Politics is merely a way for a society to determine how to act as a whole. Political parties claim for themselves to fight for a certain set of values and goals and promise for a vote to accomplish their objectives. Occasionally it's wise to check if the party of your choice still acts upon their promise of if their values are still the same as yours.
I suppose you hint at communism? Is that what a public option sounds like to you? Taxing is confiscating property?
I never understood how that can be. Are 40% of americans unemployed or illegal immigrants?
HR 3200 doesn't state anywhere that private insurers will be outlawed. I can't point you to the exact page where it doesn't stand, but I'm pretty sure. Further, Obama stressed the point that the public option will be an option. You are one of the 13 out of 15 people with health insurance and are happy with it? Keep it.
What I'm not sure about is if you have private insurance you don't have to pay the extra health care tax - like in germany.
I also don't know what happens to the non-illegal americans that don't pay taxes (due to reasons I don't understand yet). In germany, social welfare pays for the public health insurance. And yes, it's a drag on the federal budget, which gives heavy incentives to the state to get them working again.
They are advertised as moral. They usually stop being moral when you have a different opinion than your government. Let's say there are at least two different readings in operation Iraqi Freedom.
If both sides act on their beliefs then both sides act moral - even if the other side disagrees. This is not a statement anyone can refute. But this again comes down to the values - for only if you act according to your values (whatever they are) you act moral. Moral behaviour is highly subjective. Values on the other hand are absolute.
Everyone can ask himself this question: How many Little Match Girls are you willing to save?
So one can easily make the argument that tqhe wealthiest are already paying, even by the left's highly subjective valuation, more than their fair share of the taxes right now.
It is a good question though. At what salary range do you feel income taxes creep up to unacceptably punitive levels? Are we talking the 800k range or the mega salaries of CEOs and celebrities?
Also you are right, the figures are subjective but I haven't seen anyone who disputes trend of increasing disparity.
1 SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT2 COVERAGE.3 (a) GRANDFATHERED HEALTH INSURANCE COV4 ERAGE DEFINED.—Subject to the succeeding provisions of5 this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable cov6 erage under this division, the term ‘‘grandfathered health7 insurance coverage’’ means individual health insurance8 coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the9 first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:10 (1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT.—11 (A) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in12 this paragraph, the individual health insurance13 issuer offering such coverage does not enroll14 any individual in such coverage if the first ef15 fective date of coverage is on or after the first16 day of Y1.
If private insurers can't enroll new people, how do they stay in business?
The bill (HR 3200) is full of Newspeak like that - 'Protecting the choice to keep current coverage' - which does just the opposite of what its proponents, and the carefully misleading language, would lead you to believe. Precisely the reason they wanted it passed by the end of July, before anyone might notice.
*edit*
Okay, looked a bit more and I was wrong, the media has been running wild with this section.
The way new policies are created after Y1 is in participation in a "health insurance exchange." In spite of its unusual wording, as I suspected the bill goes on to explain how it's possible to keep creating those private policies.
So instead of focusing on this claim we should shift instead to what in the hell is a health insurance exchange and how will it affect things?
Yeah, that paragraph only means currently existing policies will be exempt from whatever provisions the final bill. New policies will be allowed, and changes to existing policies will be possible, but they will need to conform to the provisions of the bill.
The US tax system is sort of bizarre that way. The personal exemption means the first few thousand dollars are untaxed; each dependant adds additional income that is untaxable. Add in other considerations for things like interest on various types of loans and it's not too difficult to have a taxable income of zero. Depending on circumstances, a person can have an income above $30,000 and still have zero taxable income.
Obscenitor may be correct that insurers, under this language, can not enroll new members in existing non-qualifying benefit plans, but may be able to enroll (? roll over) members to new, qualifying plans which meet the requirements of the exchange after Y1. This may mean that, technically, they aren't being denied new policyholders, just being told they will have to offer the same set of benefits as every other insurance company, no more no less, after Y1, and force those prior, so-called non-qualifying plans to wither on the vine. Presumably, this would also prohibit anyone from buying a so-called 'rich benefits' plan after Y1.
However, this clearly means that you or I would not be able to 'keep our existing plan' indefinitely, particularly if the insurer looked at the exchange qualification requirements & said screw it, we're outta here. This is a classic example of 'having it both ways' - but the ultimate effect would be to make offering private insurance less attractive, which I believe is the objective. Actually, I don't have to believe it, it's what Obama, Frank and a bunch of others have openly proclaimed is the objective. Where's the incentive to compete when the referee's in the game & you know he intends for you to lose?
Whatever the end result, there's not a chance in hell it will be what candidate Obama said he was going to fight for as president: that everyone have a plan just as good as the one he had as a senator.
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