This is the story of the last of the Babylon 5 mod-efforts. It's goal, to prevent another failure, by creating a place to solve our problems collaboratively. Its a port of call, home away from home, for modelers, texturers, programmers and sound engineers.
Babylon 5 - Sins of the Younger Races
Disclaimer:The authors are not responsible for any damage that may arise from using this mod. This mod may not be sold under any circumstances. It may be downloaded, as long as it does not violate the laws of the state/country you live in. This disclaimer must always be distributed with the mod. For other used please contact me personally.
Thanks to the TEAM:2D Artist: Tobias Liebhart (TobiWahn_Kenobi), SteinerXBughunters: Rob Cummings, cybertx, Darvroth, Peter1x9, ZombiesRus5Coders: Ronie Albesa (zRazor), Rob Cummings (NewHorizons), Davroth, EvilTesla-RG, Rodney Jenkings (HotRod), Tobias Liebhart, ZvezdochetsModel Templates: Amras-Arfeiniel, James Newman (Firehawk)Modelers: Ronie Albesa, Amras-Arfeiniel, Fileosoft, Johan Klaver, Koobalt, Tobias Liebhart, Stefan May, Timmaigh, Pauli Valkeejärvi (Hawkwall), ZvezdochetsMusician: Pauli ValkeejärviResearch: Rob Cummings, Darvroth, Rodney JenkinsPR: Darvroth, SteinerXSounds: Rob Cummings, Pauli Valkeejärvi, ZvezdochetsTexturers: Tobias Liebhart, SteinerX, TFL_BigBangTheory, Timmaigh, Pauli Valkeejärvi, ZombiesRus5Moderation: Blake00
Additional support: boshimi336, Lavo_2, myfist0, Gürol Salk (Geopard)And toMysticAngel for the Automated Fighter docking abilityThe Babylon 5 X3TC team
And thanks to all those modelers whose work is a inspiration and a template for creating ingame assetsIf I forgot anyone, please contact me so I can give proper credit. (There seem to be so many decent people involved at the moment)
Release 0.54.1 Full Download for Rebellion 1.95+& Patch 0.54.2
NEW - Balvarin Carrier and Minor Factions fix!
Installation Guide:
Sometimes the in-game mod loader can be a bit funky so if you can't see the mods you've installed or something isn't working then enabling the mods via the 'EnabledMods.txt' file in your 'Mods-Rebellion v1.85' folder where you installed the mods to is the other alternative. It should look like this to work:
TXT2SinsArchiveVersion 194Version 0enabledModNameCount 2enabledModName "SotyrRemastered"enabledModName "SinsRemastered-v0.95b"
DISCORD:
https://discord.gg/9AwgByEEKn
Old Blog with screenshots and infos maintained by SteinerX can be found here (*OUT OF DATE*)http://babylon5ins.blogspot.com/
Yours TobiWahn_Kenobi
It is going to take a few more days for me to finish my work due to some changes in my schedule and classes. But becuase I promissed to have something by the end of the weekend I will show you all a pic of what I have done so far. Note that this is a draft and focuses on the progression of the technology:
geez... that's big ass tech tree
Hi!. Thanks for posting the draft. One suggestion for a start - keep the research trees (civil, military, diplomatic, whatever) in different charts to make it easier to understand how much of a space we are using up.
I: Ships shoud have research prerequisites other than (only) "black market tech" - thats a bit lame, no offense for example: for the Omega you should need basic beam weapons The poseidon and the omega should require the Nova to be researched The Nova should need plasma cannons research The Poseidon should need Hangar research (as should the Avenger) And so forth
II: I in the timeperiod of the b5 project, there should be a research "diplomatic station" as B5 is a diplomatic station. We also need research for: Military outpost, Trade hub and space colonyIII: Beam weapon tech advances should boost resource extraction via another research
IV: We have a few starfury research missing - the Tiger, Nova and on the other end of the timeline - the firebolt.
V: There should be a timeperiod before the dilgar war, containing all ships built before 2231 - "the age of expansion"
VI: The ships available without research should be: Explorer class vessel, Hermes frigate, Artemis Frigate, Olympus and Oracle This is one of the benefits of EA to help it early on against the other races - cheap ships and masses
VII: Research should include this weapons:Pulse Technology (5 Stages, each required for different ships)Gatling Pulse Technology (2 stages)Plasma Technology ( 3 Stages)MissilesBeam technology (4 Stages)
VIII: I prefer Terms like basic, advanced, Supreme, Superior ans such, using terms like "level 1, level 2" doesn't feel right, but just cheap.
I'd call the Santdiago Assassination just "Presidental Assassination"Clark takes control - should be "Reign of Vice President"
6 I'd call "Civil War"
7 Should be InterStellar Alliance
OK, thats it for now. I know this is just a first draft and I hope I haven't been to rude to you.
Thanks for the effort and keep it up!
Uh frankly im not sure if i can explain what i mean by attaching...you do not work with 3dsmax, right?
in 3DSmax one of the functions of object collapsed to editable poly/ editable mesh is attach....it literally does what it says...it attaches other separate objects to this one "mother" object, to create one single mesh... is this what you mean by bridging? It doesnt create any additional vertices/faces between newly connected parts, it just makes them one editable object.
Then there is link function, which connects separate objects, which remain separate, but by moving the "mother" to which all other are linked, you move them all. Or atleast i suppose it works similar way.
And then there is group function, i do not have experience with this, i think it just groups objects into one, but you cant edit this group without ungrouping it back.
Without segmenting and UV map, you will not be able to texture the model... to much people relay on the auto-tools for these stage but it is a mistake... texture map used by game are small, manual work allow to increase the size of the piece around 200%, it mean 4 time more surface for paint details...
OK, first of all, what do you mean by "segmenting"?
And i am little confused about the UV map part....unwrapping before texturing? I am used to getting texture to mesh and then applying the UVW modifier and mapping the texture coordinates.
Your best friend is http://images.google.com/ ... by example, make a search with "spaceship texture", "metal texture", "titanium texture", "sc-fi texture", etc... in some case, i use "merchant resource" texture pack... for details, since i am very bad at drawing but good at modeling, i make some tech piece with high poly, render it and use the result for texturing... in fact, everything can be used... and with the years, i have collect/buy a huge amount of material that i use for texture...
Hehe, what i thougt was actual Centauri Vorchan texture, i could use right off...i know there is classis FX-panels texture i could colorize in photoshop to purple color and create something by myself, but it would be very basic as my photoshop skills are
Anyway, i am sorry for this confusion, but my modeling skills are not as good as yours. The thing is, i learned to model myself by the trial-error method, without any books or school, and the consequence is, i model like a pig...that means my models might look from outside fine, but they are fundamentally broken, because they are created incorrect way with a ton of unwelded vertices, or maybe as you said bridged objects....which doesnt matter if i use these models only to render some images, but using it ingame, it might a problem.
Not anymore, my 3dsmax is a old version... Mainly Maya, PoserPro, and some other software... but for game modeling, Wings3D meet all my need without being to much a heavy softwareBy combine, i mean that all object become like one object, but poly remain grouped in their numbering in the resulting obj file... when segment and UV are done, all is on a single map in place of one map by object...
By bridging, i mean physically connect each object to the main body... lead to a very high increase of the poly count.OK, first of all, what do you mean by "segmenting"?
Segmenting is the proces of cuting a 3D object in a way to flaten it on a surface...And i am little confused about the UV map part....unwraping before texturing? I am used to getting texture to mesh and then applying the UVW modifier and mapping the texture coordinates.Two way are possible... work like BlackSmith3D paint softare where you paint directly on the model, without worry of seam, UV or segmenting since the software make all the work... or segmenting yourself, create the UV map ( template ) and paint it in a 2D software.... a last method for very high poly model ( million or more ) is to assign procedural texture to each poly... in so case, no segmenting, UV and texture are needed... but in so situation everything need to be modeled and sins engine hardcode limit is around the 50k triangle ( far from high poly model )Hehe, what i thougt was actual Centauri Vorchan texture, i could use right off...
If you have a bunch of picture of the ship, see from all side, you can always use a projection unfolding... and use directly these picture for texture... back side of it will be some streching in the edges zone and problem with seam...
Anyway, i am sorry for this confusion, but my modeling skills are not as good as yours. The thing is, i learned to model myself by the trial-error method, withour any books or school, and the consequence is, i model like a pig...that means my models might look from outside fine, but they are fundamentally broken, because they are created incorrect way with a ton of unwelded vertices, or as you said bridged objects....which doesnt matter if i use these models only to render some images, but using it ingame, it might a problem.There is not a question of skill but experience... by formation university, i am analyst progammer... later, my professional formation was weapons technician ( mainly missile )... now, i am a gardener... all i know, i have learn it myself by test and trial... it is around one year that i am busy with game modeling and it is really a other universe with other rules that high poly modeling... or art rendering... by the way, i make mistake too when i model... maybe only a few but it have already happen that i discover them in a late stage and obligate me to make the work again, almost from scratch... the only really difference is around 20 year experience... it is simply a hobby for me but i have work in some case with real professional ( thousand time better that me ) and learn of these experience...
Several mod have very good modeler here... maybe the main difference between me and the other good one is that i use some of my time to share my limited knowledge and help other who are newbies in 3D... i think that knowledge have no value if you don't share it with other...
More, i am a lazy guy... tired to make the work that other cannot make... more easy to teach them how to make it... some week ago, i have give a tip about UV to Tobi... result was that he have remake the UV of the excalibur and retexture it... for a better result in game... some simple tip and trick can be very interesting...
When you have time, go to http://www.free3dtutorials.com/ , i have learn a lot of thing there...
I have a feeling that there are some differences in the way how things are done in 3dsmax and this Wings3D of yours...
if i understand it correctly, segmenting is something like Render to Texture in 3dsmax, which creates the map - texture, which contains flatten surfaces of the model...like for example in my case horizontal wing form top, bottom, vertical wing etc....all on one picture....i just paint these parts in photoshop, save and apply the texture on the model....and its done
So i am not going to segment it, i just create texture - no output from 3dsmax involved here, assign it to model and then apply Unwrap UVW...and then by manually selecting polygons i will map the proper parts of the texture.To be fair, it is bit of a pain to do it this way, but i have no experience with the render to texture thing, so...
I think i try to do it as best as i can and import it to game myself to see if it works.
Thoumsin / Fileosoft is right
The retexturing and optimisation made it much more real! And The new jumpgate texture has about 50 times the detail (if not more) of the first texture I made.
BTW - Fileosoft, I could not resist but again use my Starfury model I sent you weeks ago. I now got it down to 1270 triangles, which I deem on the edge of being acceptable (well almost off the edge) but my version is more canon and that is very important to me (wing angles, thickness, Engine Thickness) but now I have to redo the texture (and your original texture is a magnificent work, just the bump/normalmap is "missing")
Just wanted to say thanks nevertheless and I do hope I didn't dissappoint you in not using your starfury. (well, probably as a low Res variant - an optional install)
Another question - was there a reason you used a 1kx1k texture for the SF-da.dds while the others (nm, cl) are 512x512?
[Deleted - Double Post]
Yea the tree is only for the first 3-4 sections. As for things like back market tech I do not want to make these lame upgrades that do nothing other than enable other upgrades. I plan to have them unlock some sort of package deal of instant upgrades. I could devide the first tech into two periods if needed or consoladate a later period into anohter. For now I will keep moving and make slight changes like that at the end.
A black market trade pack for example could boost trade slightly while also giving a few different weapon upgrades all at the same time.
As for the early power of the EA that is what I am going for tech wise. I want them to be able to quickly access a lot of different ships and tech right at level 1. This is why I would like to avoid sub deviding the tech 1 period. As for worry over needing new ships early on rememer that there is controll over costs and time of upgrade so the first few ships can be fast upgrades. Logically detailes like this can be changed around as needed for balence.
As for the level things please ignore undetailed descreptions. Right now I am just stating things simply to make it easier for me to know what I am doing. When I finish the chart I am going to go back and add better descreptions. I will also be going back and trying to fill in recommended amounts of increase. This way things like cost and time and the upgrade level can all be discussed before anyone bothers to spend a lot of time actually programing it.
As for the recommended upgrads above I will put thsoe requirements in.
Thanks for the comments and I hope to get some more work done by the end of the week!
In fact, there is no difference between 3dsmax and Wings3D, or any other normal 3D software... segmenting is simply how you cut a volume ( you select edges to be cut ) for flatten it after on a map ( UV )...
Simply, you explain the automatic way, when the software cut the piece itself, and arrange them itself on the UV map... Wings3D can make it too... by experience, no one software make the job in a perfect way... a human brain is far more superior to a computer in these case...
Let take your example... wing form top and botton... auto tools will make a big surface for the top and the botton who will use a lot of room on your map... let say that top and bottom are have symetrical texture and same for left and right part... knowing how will be the texture, manual work for the segmenting will lead to cut the wings in 4 identical piece and put these piece together... so, when texturing these quarter of wings, you will texture 4 part in the same time... and you can resize the quarter part by 200%...
A other example, imagine a ship with 40 gun turret with each turret having 4 barrel... auto tools will create a minimum of 120 piece for each barrel... when manual work will lead to one piece on the map for all barrel...
A lot of people use the easy way, use the auto tools... not really a problem for professional render, when a model use several texture who are big ( 10000 or more pixel )... but with game, due to the limited surface of texture, we need to try use it at the max... and only a human brain can make it in a very good way...
Have simply forget to resize it before make the dds... i always work at a size double to these of the final texture... i am not very good at using Gimp and i cannot make perfect seam... the resize allow to correct ( hide ) all my little texturing error who are not bigger that 4 pixel
I do hope I didn't dissappoint you in not using your starfury.
Nope... it simply confirm that i am cursed... in the last year, i have made plenty of model but none is included in a mod... 4-5 model for the dead Andromeda mod... 6 model for the 7DS "Dark" race but the guy who have wish texture them is missing in action... 3 model for the Halo mod ( not dead but not yet release anything in one year )... one model for the Evil Tesla Pirate mod ( was dissappear for a long time, now he is back but i am not sure that his mod will be finish someday due to the lack of support )...
So, the starfury not being used is only a thin layer over the rest... one year of work, maybe a around a thousand hours, for nothing... why do you think that my departure from 7DS and modeling for sins is already planned from long time ago... i am simply tired to work for nothing...
By the way, i will finish the modeling of the low poly Sharlin since it is almost done ( it will be segmented since i make it now in the same time that modeling )... but i will not use my time for texture it... for the Vorlon, i will not continue the work... for finish everything, i will need a few months and i am not sure that all these work will be used...
In fact, i will make what i have post on the 7DS forum a few week ago... finish all started work and not begin something new...
But i am not going to do it "automatic way" ...because i am not going to use any output of max to create texture....if i understand you correctly, autotool will for example in my case create 4 surfaces of the vertical wing on the texture, while i need in fact only one, because the sides of the wings are the same...but because my texture is not going to be based on the "blueprint" produced by this autotool and i am aware of the fact, i dont need 4 times the same wing part on my texture, i can better use the space 1024*1024 pixels or whatever of the map.
@Fileosoft/Thoumsin
Sorry to hear that. I was really looking forward to seeing your vorlon ships. Though I understand that you value your time and feel that too liitle is coming out of it. But if you could still stay in contact with the people in the forums, that would be wonderful, as your expertise on the subjects of modelling and UV Segmenting/optimizing is invaluable.
And thanks for completing the sharlin, as the current model is not up to the task.
@ZEROibisWell, I look forward to th revised Version of your tree. Still I do feel that tech should not only come out of black market and should represent the effort EarthForce has poured into the research of those techs.And I still feel that the early years (before the dilgar war) should have their own era and therefore ships. I do want the tech to have value and have people feel the need to use the ships they get at the start and not just try to get the next better ones.
So i did little research and now i am completely clear how it works...your way. In 3ds max it is called RENDER UVW TEMPLATE, i was unaware of this, because i do mostly architecture, so i never needed to create texture myself. For me the setup was assigning readymade texture to object and UV map coordinates. Your way is actually equally painful, the only difference it is done before, not after texturing. With the model complicated like this, Unwrapping it will be no fun.
Any chance Sins supports mulit-sub object materials? it will perhaps make things easier and faster.
One way or another, the one thing is clear...i have to UV map only one symmetric half of the model.
Already put to much time in it for stop now... but i have already say you that it will not be fully canon... i am not sure that i will be able to have the hole in the side lower rib and remain in the poly limit... sure that the actual model with 40k+ tri will be beter that mine but remember that my model will be using around 25% the amount of poly used for the actual one...
Before game modeling, my way was not texture, no segmenting, no UV.... just assign mathematicaly generated material to polygone... and of course, use million poly...
Your way is actually equally painful,
It is not MY way, it is the usual way... but it don't mean that you way is wrong...
With the model complicated like this, Unwrapping it will be no fun.
It is no fun but the final result is worthy... by the way, your model is not complicated...
Yes, it support it... have already see ship using two cl texture... but not really a good choice for game speed and memory limit... the reverse is possible too... two different ship sharing the same texture... a little more complex but spare a lot of memory...
In fact, for some piece, you can UV a 1/4 of it... and if you have a piece who is repeated multiple time, you can UV map only one of them...
I'm really looking forward to seeing your sharlin! Thanks again.
After the Arcadia for Evil Tesla pirate mod... it is the only one model that i have made who was released in a mod... without texture !!! I have delay enough long the work on it for other mod... it is now my top priority...
So i managed to import my model into game via Stannum´s 3dsmax importer tool and i think it works flawlessly...it needs proper texture, i used the Kol Battleships dafault one without setting any UV coordinates.
Gorgeous!! I would need it in obj if possible, as to adapt the size to the other models. (I know I'm a control freak )
UV Mapped, optimised and textured if possible!
Tobiwahn: Could we not use Fileosoft's Starfury with one of his textures to go with a certain/or certain ships ... Fileosoft has supported and aided our endeavour ... it would be a very nice gesture to him to show our appreciation of the time and effort he has given up for the B5 mod ...
Perhaps a PSI Corps Ship with the Black Omega Star Fury, at the very least ...
I think we should give tribute to this talented/helpful/generous soul ...
Just my own personal thoughts ... it is your mod ...your decision.
Fileosoft: You will be missed!
At long last, a babylon 5 mod!
Please, please, please dont give up on this one....
I don't think they are giving up. They've done a fair amount of work, so I think they are going to pull through to the end.
@ Tobi Wahn:
I am trying to create the texture, and i have found fine tutorial, which says:
Data map: This is ARGB. Each channel controls a different effect. Altogether, they don't look like anything, but it's a convenient way to let the engine know what parts of the skin to apply post-processing to. The "channel" colors have nothing to do with red green or blue, they're just ways to separate each effect.Red channel is the specular map. This must be greyscale, black is "none". Green channel is lights. Intensity controls how bright stuff is.Blue channel is reflective. This should be used sparingly and can be used for cockpits, metal bolts and other stuff with low intensity. The reason I say this should be used sparingly is it is almost like a mirror, and a well formed specular map will do a better job with light effects than painting this everywhere will.And finally, the alpha channel on the data map controls bloom. For the most part anything illuminated to max with the green channel (engine halos, large light structures) probably should be given bloom.
This was for Vanilla game. Somehow i have a feeling i have read in the Star trek thread there was a change regarding DATA map´s RGB channels and its "functions" in the Entrenchment, but cant find what exactly it was.
Can you tell me please, what it was?
BTW. thanks for the karma points, my very first
There is no difference in texture work between Vanilla sins and Entrenchment... the change have happen betwen the 1.05 sins and the 1.10 sins .... the info that you have write in your post is the actual and accurate info... these found in the mod tools pdf from Stardock is the non updated version, valid until 1.05 ...
something for you : http://www.3d-tutorial.com/intro_to_uvw_unrap-1040.html
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