So ive been seeing alot of debates about the Science used in Sins.
While i certainly enjoy having these debates in whatever thread they pop up in, i thought id make a definitive thread about as much as i can come up with.
I'll add to this as time goes by. Im more than welcome to corrections, debate and suggestions. Note that im just doing this off the top of my head as im sitting here, so i you would like to submit details (number values and what not) feel free.
so, from the top:
WEAPONS
TEC:
AutoCannons
Science: Generally considered as some for of Mass Driver. For this reason, it is understood that AutoCannons use magnetic forces to propel a solid, dense object called a 'slug' at extreme speeds. Generally, the most widely used material for the slugs is Tungsten, though other metals can be used. In the present, AutoCannon equivalents can only fire 1 round at a time, overheat quite quickly, and either damage themselves with each shot fired (Railguns) or are ineffecient or inaccurate (Coilguns/Gauss cannons). However they are a new technology, so these results are expected to improve.
Fiction: Sins AutoCannons, aside from the unusual and generally non-descriptive name, hold quite true to what can be construed to be feasible technology 1000+ years from now. There is, however, one flaw in the theory or ACs being Mass Drivers, in that on stage of TEC AC research entails advancement in Cartrige Propellants, indicating that AutoCannons are, in fact, just that - large, automatically reloading and re-firing Cannons like those you would find on a tank or artillery piece, though, given the scale of Sins, a much larger weapon round size, perhaps up to 220mm or greater, could be expected.
Lasers
Science: Lasers are concentrated beams of light which, through bombarding the target with charged particles, create massive amounts of heat and thereby damage the target. Lasers can be generated in a number of ways, and it is unclear how Lasers in Sins are generated. It can be assumed, however, that the generation methods differ between Advent and TEC, due to the different damage outputs and effeciencies, and, of course, the colour of the beam.
Fiction: In Sins, TEC Lasers are short, red lines that travel from the ship to the target at a relatively leisurely pace. This is not accurate as it is a known fact that in a vacuum, Lasers travel at the speed of light, and so you wouldnt see the laser leave the 'barrel' and hit the target in a short line like we do, rather, you would see something more akin to Sins Beam weaponry. Even though in the game they are called Pulse Lasers, such a differentiation would simply mean that the laser would fire multiple times in quick succession over a short period, rather than a long, sustained burst. They would, however, remain similar in appearance to Beam weponry.
Missiles
Science: Missiles are generally considered nowadays to refer to Single- or Multi-Stage, self-propelled explosive devices. Generally straight-forward, Missiles burn fuel to propel themselves at great speed towards a target, where, depending on the type of missile, it will either explode, or, in the case of TEC Missiles and the LRF Cluster Bombs ability upgrade, release multiple smaller warheads, capable of dealing potentially greater damage over a larger area to more targets. Missiles can have a any of a number of different guidance systems, on-board or relayed, than enable the missile to home in on its target more effectively. It is assumed, since missiles fired from a ship that has since been destroyed do not fly off harmlessly or detonate, that TEC missiles use on-board guidance systems, although it is possible those systems are simply backups for main targetting systems relying on the more powerful sensors on the host ship.
Fiction: Many science fiction universes show space battles as (relatively speaking) close range affairs, where lasers, guns, cannons, railguns, missiles, energy blasts etc are all being fired from within visual range. However, other universes suggest space battles be a matter of fleets sitting thousands, millions or even lightminutes away from each other, firing missiles into the void and hoping that you dont get hit by an even bigger volley in return. Even todays missiles can fire into space or at targets half way around the world. For this reason, it is not unreasonable to assume that with the vacuum in space, improved propellants, and longer ranged sensors, that this reality may not come true. The answer to that question, however, is yet to be seen and cannot be answered simply.
On another note, all missiles in Sins appear able to turn at incredible angles, effectively on the spot. Its like driving a car at 200 kp\h and making a 90 degree right turn within 10 meters. This is of course false, but can be attributed to a graphical and computational glitch which does not negatively affect gameplay, and so is left alone.
Beams
Science: A particle beam is an accelerated stream of charged particles or neutrons (often moving at very near the speed of light) which may be directed by magnets and focused by electrostatic lenses, although they may also be self-focusing. Subatomic particles such as electrons, positrons, and protons can be accelerated to high velocities and energies by machines that impart energy to the particles in small stages or nudges, ultimately achieving very high energy particle beams, measured in terms of billions and even trillions of electron volts. High energy beams are created in particle accelerators, in which a charged particle is drawn forward by an electrostatic (not magnetic) field with a charge opposite to the particle (like charges repel one another, opposites attract); as the particle passes the source of each field, the charge of the field is reversed so that the particle is now pushed on to another field source. Through a series of fields in sequence, the particle accelerates until it is moving at a high speed. A natural analogy to particle beams is lightning, where electrons flow from negatively charged clouds to positively charged clouds or the earth.
Fiction: Since Weaponised Particle Beams are not widespread at present (though they do exist and have been experimented with since 1958), it is difficult to say whether Sins Particle Beams, both TEC and Advent, are accurate representations. One question is, though, whether real Particle Beams would, in fact, appear as they do in Sins, rather than something akin to lightening.
Advent:
Science: Advent Lasers would be very similiar in method of generation and power output to TEC Lasers. The term blue laser is frequently applied to semiconductor laser diode based on gallium nitride. These new devices have applications in many areas ranging from optoelectronic data storage at high-density to medical applications. The shorter wavelength allows the laser to transfer much more information that a standard red laser.
Fiction: Modern Blue Lasers are used mainly for Telecommunications, IT, Medical and Environmental monitoring systems, and projectors. At present, no weaponised forms exist or are predicted, though in 1000+ years, this can certainly change. Also, by the same token that TEC Lasers are not accurate representations, so too are Advent Lasers, in that they should travel from ship to target at the speed of light (effectively instantly).
Science: Advent Beams would be very similar to TEC Beams in terms of basic physics, however, the 'sharpness' of the beam indicates a greatly improved effeciency, and, therefore, power and damage output.
Fiction: Once again, it is unclear if Sins Particle Beams are accurate representations. Similarly to TEC Beams, however, it is unclear if Sins Beam effects are accurate.
Plasma
Science: Plasma weapons use a small nuclear reactor or fuel cell or other type of advanced energy storage device to power an electromagnetic accelerator that fires a stream, pulse or toroid of plasma (i.e. very hot, very energetic excited matter).Plasma-based weaponry is any group of weapons designed to use high-energy ionized gas or "plasma", typically created by superheating lasers or superfrequency devices. The primary damage mechanism of these fictional weapons is usually thermal transfer; it typically causes serious burns, and often immediate death of living creatures, and melts or evaporates other materials. In certain fiction, plasma weapons may also have a significant kinetic energy component, that is to say the ionized material is projected with sufficient momentum to cause some secondary impact damage in addition to causing high thermal damage
Fiction: As Plasma Weapons do not yet exist outside of Science Fiction, it is difficult to determine if plasma weapons in Sins are accurate representations. However, it is understandable that plasma, if charged to a high enough level, would do damage to the shields and hull of a ship.
Psionic Surge
Science: These weapons are unique to Sins of a Solar Empire, and do not exist in reality or other popular works of Science Fiction. As such, there is no real 'Science" to speak of. However, Canon explains Advent Psionic Surges as concentrated Psychic Energy being deployed against targets in the form of a large blue cone shaped blast. This weapon is the only Advent weapon that can change course while in flight to the target.
Fiction: It is unclear how psychic energy can cause physical damage to a target. it is assumed, however, that the weird space/time anomalies (such as possible powerful shifts in gravity, power surges and EMP-like blasts) could cause a ship to be damaged or destroyed.
Vasari
Vasari weapons (with the exception of Phase Missiles) are entirely the stuff of fiction. As such, there is very little in the way of science, however, here is some Canon to base assumptions from.
Pulse Guns (Plasma)
Science: Unfortunately, my rather interesting, inspired (in my opinion) speculation on the science behind Pulse Guns seems to have been overturned by the simple fact that in the Game Manual, Pulse Guns are referred to as Plasma Pulse Guns. For this reason, it is understood that Pulse Guns operate in much the same way as Advent Plasma Cannons, except on a smaller scale (and perhaps more effecient yet with a lower damage output). However, the inaccuracy of the weapon and haphazard trajectory of each blast - congruent with the style of Advent Plasma Weapons (which, naturally, we know to be without a doubt plasma based) - would support this fact.
Fiction: Certain Science Fiction Universes hold Weaponised Plasma to be an ultimate weapon, due to its massive damage output and high accuracy. While Sins holds true to the massive damage output (at least in the case of Advent Plasma weapons... Vasari Pulse Gun equivalents leave much to be desired...), the high accuracy is one convention not held to. The reasoning of the high accuracy is that electro-magnetic manipulation of the plasma can continue even once the bolt has left the weapon, and as such can have its flight trajectory altered mid-flight. This, however, does not seem to be the case with Sins. Also, the odd colouring of Vasari Plasma weapons does not seem to hold true to most traditions, as plasma is generally depicted in whites, blues, violets and similar colours, rather than the Vasari green
Pulse Beams
Science: Again, it is unclear how Pulse Beams actually work. Once again, the name is non-descript, however the each word does give some clues. It is possible that the Pulse Beam is simply a standard Particle Beam, simply pulse-fired intead of in a constant stream. However, I, personally, like a bit of variety, and for that reason, my opinion is that Pulse Beams are either some form of Neutron Particle Accelerator (yes, its a Particle Beam, but not exactly the same as TEC and Advent Beams) or a Hard Radiation Directed Energy Weapon, that takes hard radiation like gamma rays, and fires them in a concentrated blast at the target.
Fiction: The above explanation is, of course, total speculation. The simple fact that the Vasari race is so old and advanced implies that most of their weapons may not even be within our comprehension yet.
Phase Missiles
Science: It would appear that Phase Missiles are very similar to standard TEC Missiles when you get down to the basics. However, aside from a possibly much greater damage potential due to advanced Vasari technology, their main strength lies in their ability to bypass enemy target shields completely and deal damage directly to the hull. This is done by temporarily shifting the missile to Phase Space, and out of the same 'dimension' or 'space/time' as the target shields, thereby passing right through them with no ill effects. Once bypassing the shield, the missiles are free to detonate on or near the target hull, dealing damage as a normal missile. It is important to note the Phase Missiles only have a 30% chance to bypass [shields], though this may be improved through research.
Fiction: Logically speaking, the science of Phase Missiles seems pretty strong. However, questions remain as to the effectiveness of the weapon. If the weapon can shift into phase space, why cant the Vasari sit a fleet on their homeworld and fire Phase Missiles at targets in other Gravity Wells, thereby removing any threat of retaliation from enemy forces? Some poeple credit this with the small size of the missile requiring a very small and potentially ineffecient (and therefore extremely short lived) Phase Drive within the missile, meaning that the missile can only be in Phase Space for a short period (possibly to the degree of a fraction of a second) before returning to normal space.
If the weapon can bypass shields, why not the hull as well? A few, well aimed missiles fired at the Bridge, Engine Room, Reactor Room, Ammo Cache, and other Targets of Opportunity, would destroy any and every targetted ship with minimal fuss and cost. This is explained with the same reason a Phase Missile cannon be fired from a planet away, as the Phase Drives within the missile may not have the sustainability to breach the shield AND hull.
Why not a single missile loaded with a biological weapon, fired into the Life Support Systems, and detonating, killing all crew on board while salvaging the ship? With the 30% chance to bypass, ideally the Vasari would have to fire more than 3 times the number of missiles to ensure a sufficient number penetrated, with 70% of missile impacting harmlessly on the hull.
With such an effective and versatile weapon, it is also unclear why the Vasari utilise other types of weapons, however, many people believe that Phase Missiles would be relatively expensive, both in terms of actual cost and space requirements for the missiles within each ship. It is also believed that the Vasari have other weapons due to the threat of an enemy being able to counter the effectiveness of Phase Missiles (such technology is evident in the TEC Kol Battleship's Adaptive Forcefield ability), thereby rendering a Vasari fleet all but entirely harmless.
Wave Cannons (Plasma)
Science: Like most other Vasari weapons, it is unclear how Wave Cannons work, though in the game manual calls them Plasma Wave Cannons. The wave in the name, in fact, references the appearance of the blast generated by the weapon. Wave Cannons are held to be the most powerful and advanced Vasari ship-based weapon, being utilised only on their Heavy Cruiser and Capital Ships. There is no Science nor Canon (other than the name in the game manual) to explain anything about these weapons, however many theories have been made, including that the weapon is a 'shell' acting like a missile or rocket, or that it is some type of highly advanced Plasma Weapon. Another theory is that it is some form of Directed-Energy weapon similar to a Microwave Generator, but rather than generating Microwaves, generates a series of particles or 'signal' that disrupts the target at the molecular level, thereby damaging and destroying the very materials the target is made out of. Personally, I consider Wave Cannons to be a type of Plasma, Particle or Directed-Energy Weapon, though I am open to suggestions and explanations. It would seem, however, that the majority of the community believes Wave Cannons are a form of Plasma Cannon, much more similar to the Advent Plasma Cannon than the Pulse Gun, in both sophistication and damage output.
Disintegrators
Science: The name Disintegrators describes the effect of the weapon, not so much about the method of how the damage is inflicted. One theory is that Disintegrators affect the target at a molecular level, effectively disintegrating the very molecules of the target and causing it to fall apart like sand.
Fiction: Molecular Manipulation Weapons only exists in Science Fiction, However, as we dont not know that Disintegrators are MMW's, we cannot compare the two. However, even more advanced that simply disconnecting molecules is the re-arraging of them to form a new structure, or to destabilise an existing one. For instance, use of an MMW to use the very molecules of the bulkheads or hull to create an explosive device or biological weapon within the target, or to turn the target itself into an explosive device. Alternatively, using an MMW to disintegrate the crew of a ship, leaving the ship unmanned for pilaging. Another example is to simply breach the hull of the ship near the bridge, or breach the ships reactor shielding by disintegrating the molecules that make up the shielding. These types of attacks are incredibly deadly, simple, effective, and, most of all, generally uncounterable. However, once again, the above explanation is, of course, total speculation. The simple fact that the Vasari race is so old and advanced implies that most of their weapons may not even be within our comprehension yet.
Yet to come:
Explanations of: Shields and Shield Mitigation, Hull and Armor, Engines, Phase Drives, Super Weapons Abilities.
Also: Accepting suggestions for other topics, and,
Please tell me if I've made any grievous spelling errors. Thanks.
wings would increase the effeciency of thrusters to rotate the ship on a Y-axis (assuming X is left/right and Z is up/down etc)
it also creates more space for fuel, ammo/batteries, and larger/more complex weaponry
but back to flight design, just because there is no wind generating lift etc, does not mean wings dont serve a purpose. contol surfaces are just as important in space as in atmo, i think the wings are simply to provide more control surfaces to increase the effeciency of high speed manouvers, and, despite the fact that it is not evidenced within the game, it is totally possible that Sins strikecraft can operate within a planetary atmosphere as a normal plane...
that is true Rez. Wings can be useful in space.
A number (probably more like all) of my designs for Air/Space capable fighter and bomber craft all had conventional designs (in reference to today), and had RCS jets built into the rudder, ailerons, decelerons, and all the flaps.
quarks? gluons? sorry but i only need one quark in my life, and hes on Star Trek: Deep Space 9.
seriously this topic was all to interesting until the thread took a turn for the worse becoming a SuperNerd subject of how scientists can break down matter even farther then protons nuetrons and electrons. its scary to think what else theyll think up in their heads and call reality.
No seriously its cool to bring a bit of reality to the game. as sometimes i wonder myself if the creaters of this game actually brought in a physics expert or read this crap from a 1950s Soviet Union Science book. But alas, I am but a mere foot soldier in the conflict. And too average to ever imagine understanding what the living and breathing hell, quarks are.........so at this point. ima stop reading before my brain hymorages due to overactivity.
Science is logic applied to observation, nothing more, nothing less, it is a tool.
This thread is interesting because people are taking what they observe from the game and applying what they know of science to draw a logical conclusion about how those things may exist in the game world.
@Rezo:
I know, but I would think that surely there is a reason that the SC look so similar. One would think that this would have to do with their ability to fly... Although it is likely that SC can fly within atmo, I am talking propulsion... Let's look at what they could have...
They could have ion engines which seems very likely based on graphics and their ability to fly very long distances without having to refuel. The problem is, IE's have thrusts that are in centi-newtons. Not nearly enough to work properly. If you had one on your ship and fired a plasma pulse, your ship would fly in the opposite direction because the engines are so weak. Inversely, if you were hit by such a weapon, you would feel a massive shockwave from it.
They could also have combustion engines which seems likely based on their ability to dogfight. However, this also has problems as their ability to fly a few million miles within seconds would require vast quantities of fuel which they obviously do not have. If they used combustion pulse engines, they would overcome their fuel problems, but would likely kill the pilot via G-Forces.
AM does not work as a fuel source. It works as a battery as it allows you to store extremely vast amounts of energy for other methods of transportation though.. One is...
Space-Time Warping: This could easily be pulled off with energy needs, but the gravity amplifiers needed would be too large to fit on something so small. This idea is also shot down by graphics and SC's inability to phase jump.
There is however one theoretical system that might just work...
Rapid Evaporation Cycling: By creating a few dozen tiny black holes per second, you could actually create a power source and a fuel source for your ship. (This system could also be applied to larger ships). After creating these black holes, you feed them with matter. Now, once they reach a certain mass, you stop feeding them as the matter inside of them gets hotter and hotter, it will come ever closer to Absolute Heat. At this temperature (Somewhere around 18 trillion Kelvin) all matter converts into energy. Once the matter crosses that line, the mass of the black hole will fall off, leaving a bunch of energy with nowhere to go but out as the black hole implodes. By "cooling" this energy back into a physical state, you will get more matter/energy than you put into it. Some could be left as energy to power the ship, some could be turned into plasma for weapons, and some could be used as fuel. Your choice, but I think this is the only system that could actually propel something like the SC in the way that they do...
Only one problem that I can spot with your assessment of Ion Engines Volt: they CAN build up a SUBSTANTIAL (like more than current conventional rocket propulsion systems) of thrust (impulse more like).
However, it takes a LONG TIME for them to do so. I think that it is some kind of nano-pellet fueled reaction engine.
One idea (this is my own, and copyrighted by myself)- Each SC is powered by a fusion (originally my idea is a dual-cycle nuclear reactor. A dual-cycle reactor can function in fission OR fusion modes, either/or, but NEVER simultaneously in MOST very small units. Certain very-high-end (like more than a trillion dollars PER UNIT in todays costs) that are small enough to fit into an SC can.) reactor.
Moving on, the reactor produces a plasma material as a by-product of the nuclear reactions. This plasma material can then be pulsed very rapidly (more than 100 times/second), to produce a very controllable thrust. This plasma material is accelerated using a mass-driver/coilgun/ion thruster type engine that is powered by the nuclear reactor. Additionally, using advanced thruster nozzle technology (not really advanced, as we already have something that IS what I am about to describe today (2009)), 3D thrust vectorying can be achieved (most of the advanced is for the materials needed to withstand the HUGE temperatures of the plasma).
I know what you mean, and yes they can get going quite fast and ultimately hit <c, but if they hit something, regardless of size, they can get set back a lot.
But you still have limited fuel. REC is the only thing I can think of that literally has no end to the energy it can create, and all you need is to create those first hundred black holes...
@Volt
you are thinking WAY too high tech. a Nuclear Pulse Engine or Pressurised Plasma Engine (i realise there isnt much difference, but meh) could provide adequate thrust with extremely high fuel economy, meaning you could fly around all but indefinitly.
it fits graphically as well as in lore and everything. the only thing is it may not function within atmo, but like we've said, there is no evidence of them operating in atmo so its irrelevant
as for why they look similar... well, like i said, the shape gives extra control/power for control surfaces and thrusters respectively, and also create extra room for fuel and ammo/batteries... idn, do we need another explanation?
Seeing as the races make pretty damm sure that there is nothing alive on the planets they colonize (10 min barrage of nukes, kinetic bolts, and beams..) i don't think the strikecraft would need to function in the atmosphere. The wings are probably for ammo and fuel, although is begs the question of how large TEC strikecraft must be.
They use missles and autocannons, so they must carry both enough fuel and enough ammo to be effective, but at the same time be able to manuever without straining the hull... the bombers carry missles which would take up a lot of space.. they must be much larger than terrestrial stikecraft.
And X000 years in the future won't have stuff like that?
I don't know... A nuclear pulse engine might, but you might be capable of trucking around 500-750 kilos of hydrogen. About half of that would be used to power your ship/keep the reaction going, so let's say you have 275 kilos of H2 for fuel.
Next, let's say your ship weighs around 3 tonnes. That means that you to go 1kph faster, you must make the He (because it has fused) go about 11 kph if you used it all in one burst. Since you obviously can't do that, you'll end up having a virtual particle cannon on the back of your ship to fire those things at <c. I don't really think that makes a whole lot of sense as particle cannons that would accelerate something that quickly would have to be cooled by liquid N or the like. However, that would mean that you would very quickly burn up any "coldness" you could possibly have on your ship. This yields you burning to a crisp. Even if you found a way to effectively cool the particle cannon after one burn, you only have a few miliseconds before the next burn. You would practically have to shoot liquid N at the engine to keep it cool!
But let's say you found a way to do so, regardless of plausibility... Particle cannons that fire things at c can't be compact. They can't. I'm not saying picotechnology wouldn't allow for small devices and particle cannons, but I'm saying high speed particle cannons can't be small. They are giant, hulking, supermagnets that would rip your ship to shreds if you turned it on. The most diamagnetic thing we know of is graphite. While it doesn't allow for magnetic fields to pass through, it is repelled by them. You would have to have a few hundred kilos of graphite to block the magnetic fields, and another thousand kilos of steel to prevent the graphite from blowing up.
I just don't see it as feasible... I know the REC is based on a lot of theoretical things, but it seems that it would be more reliable than a nuclear pulse engine, and obviously fuel efficiency is infinite.
I guess, if someone can come up with some way to cool a compact, high speed particle cannon and some way to prevent it from blowing your ship apart without using 1200 kilos of material, then a NPE would be great. Obviously an REC would be best on ships that could afford to use it (capital ships and frigates) but for something small, it would be a bit of a stretch...
and nobody thinks my idea is good. *sigh*. And I had to go and dig around to get that piece of paper I made that had the info on it.
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