So ive been seeing alot of debates about the Science used in Sins.
While i certainly enjoy having these debates in whatever thread they pop up in, i thought id make a definitive thread about as much as i can come up with.
I'll add to this as time goes by. Im more than welcome to corrections, debate and suggestions. Note that im just doing this off the top of my head as im sitting here, so i you would like to submit details (number values and what not) feel free.
so, from the top:
WEAPONS
TEC:
AutoCannons
Science: Generally considered as some for of Mass Driver. For this reason, it is understood that AutoCannons use magnetic forces to propel a solid, dense object called a 'slug' at extreme speeds. Generally, the most widely used material for the slugs is Tungsten, though other metals can be used. In the present, AutoCannon equivalents can only fire 1 round at a time, overheat quite quickly, and either damage themselves with each shot fired (Railguns) or are ineffecient or inaccurate (Coilguns/Gauss cannons). However they are a new technology, so these results are expected to improve.
Fiction: Sins AutoCannons, aside from the unusual and generally non-descriptive name, hold quite true to what can be construed to be feasible technology 1000+ years from now. There is, however, one flaw in the theory or ACs being Mass Drivers, in that on stage of TEC AC research entails advancement in Cartrige Propellants, indicating that AutoCannons are, in fact, just that - large, automatically reloading and re-firing Cannons like those you would find on a tank or artillery piece, though, given the scale of Sins, a much larger weapon round size, perhaps up to 220mm or greater, could be expected.
Lasers
Science: Lasers are concentrated beams of light which, through bombarding the target with charged particles, create massive amounts of heat and thereby damage the target. Lasers can be generated in a number of ways, and it is unclear how Lasers in Sins are generated. It can be assumed, however, that the generation methods differ between Advent and TEC, due to the different damage outputs and effeciencies, and, of course, the colour of the beam.
Fiction: In Sins, TEC Lasers are short, red lines that travel from the ship to the target at a relatively leisurely pace. This is not accurate as it is a known fact that in a vacuum, Lasers travel at the speed of light, and so you wouldnt see the laser leave the 'barrel' and hit the target in a short line like we do, rather, you would see something more akin to Sins Beam weaponry. Even though in the game they are called Pulse Lasers, such a differentiation would simply mean that the laser would fire multiple times in quick succession over a short period, rather than a long, sustained burst. They would, however, remain similar in appearance to Beam weponry.
Missiles
Science: Missiles are generally considered nowadays to refer to Single- or Multi-Stage, self-propelled explosive devices. Generally straight-forward, Missiles burn fuel to propel themselves at great speed towards a target, where, depending on the type of missile, it will either explode, or, in the case of TEC Missiles and the LRF Cluster Bombs ability upgrade, release multiple smaller warheads, capable of dealing potentially greater damage over a larger area to more targets. Missiles can have a any of a number of different guidance systems, on-board or relayed, than enable the missile to home in on its target more effectively. It is assumed, since missiles fired from a ship that has since been destroyed do not fly off harmlessly or detonate, that TEC missiles use on-board guidance systems, although it is possible those systems are simply backups for main targetting systems relying on the more powerful sensors on the host ship.
Fiction: Many science fiction universes show space battles as (relatively speaking) close range affairs, where lasers, guns, cannons, railguns, missiles, energy blasts etc are all being fired from within visual range. However, other universes suggest space battles be a matter of fleets sitting thousands, millions or even lightminutes away from each other, firing missiles into the void and hoping that you dont get hit by an even bigger volley in return. Even todays missiles can fire into space or at targets half way around the world. For this reason, it is not unreasonable to assume that with the vacuum in space, improved propellants, and longer ranged sensors, that this reality may not come true. The answer to that question, however, is yet to be seen and cannot be answered simply.
On another note, all missiles in Sins appear able to turn at incredible angles, effectively on the spot. Its like driving a car at 200 kp\h and making a 90 degree right turn within 10 meters. This is of course false, but can be attributed to a graphical and computational glitch which does not negatively affect gameplay, and so is left alone.
Beams
Science: A particle beam is an accelerated stream of charged particles or neutrons (often moving at very near the speed of light) which may be directed by magnets and focused by electrostatic lenses, although they may also be self-focusing. Subatomic particles such as electrons, positrons, and protons can be accelerated to high velocities and energies by machines that impart energy to the particles in small stages or nudges, ultimately achieving very high energy particle beams, measured in terms of billions and even trillions of electron volts. High energy beams are created in particle accelerators, in which a charged particle is drawn forward by an electrostatic (not magnetic) field with a charge opposite to the particle (like charges repel one another, opposites attract); as the particle passes the source of each field, the charge of the field is reversed so that the particle is now pushed on to another field source. Through a series of fields in sequence, the particle accelerates until it is moving at a high speed. A natural analogy to particle beams is lightning, where electrons flow from negatively charged clouds to positively charged clouds or the earth.
Fiction: Since Weaponised Particle Beams are not widespread at present (though they do exist and have been experimented with since 1958), it is difficult to say whether Sins Particle Beams, both TEC and Advent, are accurate representations. One question is, though, whether real Particle Beams would, in fact, appear as they do in Sins, rather than something akin to lightening.
Advent:
Science: Advent Lasers would be very similiar in method of generation and power output to TEC Lasers. The term blue laser is frequently applied to semiconductor laser diode based on gallium nitride. These new devices have applications in many areas ranging from optoelectronic data storage at high-density to medical applications. The shorter wavelength allows the laser to transfer much more information that a standard red laser.
Fiction: Modern Blue Lasers are used mainly for Telecommunications, IT, Medical and Environmental monitoring systems, and projectors. At present, no weaponised forms exist or are predicted, though in 1000+ years, this can certainly change. Also, by the same token that TEC Lasers are not accurate representations, so too are Advent Lasers, in that they should travel from ship to target at the speed of light (effectively instantly).
Science: Advent Beams would be very similar to TEC Beams in terms of basic physics, however, the 'sharpness' of the beam indicates a greatly improved effeciency, and, therefore, power and damage output.
Fiction: Once again, it is unclear if Sins Particle Beams are accurate representations. Similarly to TEC Beams, however, it is unclear if Sins Beam effects are accurate.
Plasma
Science: Plasma weapons use a small nuclear reactor or fuel cell or other type of advanced energy storage device to power an electromagnetic accelerator that fires a stream, pulse or toroid of plasma (i.e. very hot, very energetic excited matter).Plasma-based weaponry is any group of weapons designed to use high-energy ionized gas or "plasma", typically created by superheating lasers or superfrequency devices. The primary damage mechanism of these fictional weapons is usually thermal transfer; it typically causes serious burns, and often immediate death of living creatures, and melts or evaporates other materials. In certain fiction, plasma weapons may also have a significant kinetic energy component, that is to say the ionized material is projected with sufficient momentum to cause some secondary impact damage in addition to causing high thermal damage
Fiction: As Plasma Weapons do not yet exist outside of Science Fiction, it is difficult to determine if plasma weapons in Sins are accurate representations. However, it is understandable that plasma, if charged to a high enough level, would do damage to the shields and hull of a ship.
Psionic Surge
Science: These weapons are unique to Sins of a Solar Empire, and do not exist in reality or other popular works of Science Fiction. As such, there is no real 'Science" to speak of. However, Canon explains Advent Psionic Surges as concentrated Psychic Energy being deployed against targets in the form of a large blue cone shaped blast. This weapon is the only Advent weapon that can change course while in flight to the target.
Fiction: It is unclear how psychic energy can cause physical damage to a target. it is assumed, however, that the weird space/time anomalies (such as possible powerful shifts in gravity, power surges and EMP-like blasts) could cause a ship to be damaged or destroyed.
Vasari
Vasari weapons (with the exception of Phase Missiles) are entirely the stuff of fiction. As such, there is very little in the way of science, however, here is some Canon to base assumptions from.
Pulse Guns (Plasma)
Science: Unfortunately, my rather interesting, inspired (in my opinion) speculation on the science behind Pulse Guns seems to have been overturned by the simple fact that in the Game Manual, Pulse Guns are referred to as Plasma Pulse Guns. For this reason, it is understood that Pulse Guns operate in much the same way as Advent Plasma Cannons, except on a smaller scale (and perhaps more effecient yet with a lower damage output). However, the inaccuracy of the weapon and haphazard trajectory of each blast - congruent with the style of Advent Plasma Weapons (which, naturally, we know to be without a doubt plasma based) - would support this fact.
Fiction: Certain Science Fiction Universes hold Weaponised Plasma to be an ultimate weapon, due to its massive damage output and high accuracy. While Sins holds true to the massive damage output (at least in the case of Advent Plasma weapons... Vasari Pulse Gun equivalents leave much to be desired...), the high accuracy is one convention not held to. The reasoning of the high accuracy is that electro-magnetic manipulation of the plasma can continue even once the bolt has left the weapon, and as such can have its flight trajectory altered mid-flight. This, however, does not seem to be the case with Sins. Also, the odd colouring of Vasari Plasma weapons does not seem to hold true to most traditions, as plasma is generally depicted in whites, blues, violets and similar colours, rather than the Vasari green
Pulse Beams
Science: Again, it is unclear how Pulse Beams actually work. Once again, the name is non-descript, however the each word does give some clues. It is possible that the Pulse Beam is simply a standard Particle Beam, simply pulse-fired intead of in a constant stream. However, I, personally, like a bit of variety, and for that reason, my opinion is that Pulse Beams are either some form of Neutron Particle Accelerator (yes, its a Particle Beam, but not exactly the same as TEC and Advent Beams) or a Hard Radiation Directed Energy Weapon, that takes hard radiation like gamma rays, and fires them in a concentrated blast at the target.
Fiction: The above explanation is, of course, total speculation. The simple fact that the Vasari race is so old and advanced implies that most of their weapons may not even be within our comprehension yet.
Phase Missiles
Science: It would appear that Phase Missiles are very similar to standard TEC Missiles when you get down to the basics. However, aside from a possibly much greater damage potential due to advanced Vasari technology, their main strength lies in their ability to bypass enemy target shields completely and deal damage directly to the hull. This is done by temporarily shifting the missile to Phase Space, and out of the same 'dimension' or 'space/time' as the target shields, thereby passing right through them with no ill effects. Once bypassing the shield, the missiles are free to detonate on or near the target hull, dealing damage as a normal missile. It is important to note the Phase Missiles only have a 30% chance to bypass [shields], though this may be improved through research.
Fiction: Logically speaking, the science of Phase Missiles seems pretty strong. However, questions remain as to the effectiveness of the weapon. If the weapon can shift into phase space, why cant the Vasari sit a fleet on their homeworld and fire Phase Missiles at targets in other Gravity Wells, thereby removing any threat of retaliation from enemy forces? Some poeple credit this with the small size of the missile requiring a very small and potentially ineffecient (and therefore extremely short lived) Phase Drive within the missile, meaning that the missile can only be in Phase Space for a short period (possibly to the degree of a fraction of a second) before returning to normal space.
If the weapon can bypass shields, why not the hull as well? A few, well aimed missiles fired at the Bridge, Engine Room, Reactor Room, Ammo Cache, and other Targets of Opportunity, would destroy any and every targetted ship with minimal fuss and cost. This is explained with the same reason a Phase Missile cannon be fired from a planet away, as the Phase Drives within the missile may not have the sustainability to breach the shield AND hull.
Why not a single missile loaded with a biological weapon, fired into the Life Support Systems, and detonating, killing all crew on board while salvaging the ship? With the 30% chance to bypass, ideally the Vasari would have to fire more than 3 times the number of missiles to ensure a sufficient number penetrated, with 70% of missile impacting harmlessly on the hull.
With such an effective and versatile weapon, it is also unclear why the Vasari utilise other types of weapons, however, many people believe that Phase Missiles would be relatively expensive, both in terms of actual cost and space requirements for the missiles within each ship. It is also believed that the Vasari have other weapons due to the threat of an enemy being able to counter the effectiveness of Phase Missiles (such technology is evident in the TEC Kol Battleship's Adaptive Forcefield ability), thereby rendering a Vasari fleet all but entirely harmless.
Wave Cannons (Plasma)
Science: Like most other Vasari weapons, it is unclear how Wave Cannons work, though in the game manual calls them Plasma Wave Cannons. The wave in the name, in fact, references the appearance of the blast generated by the weapon. Wave Cannons are held to be the most powerful and advanced Vasari ship-based weapon, being utilised only on their Heavy Cruiser and Capital Ships. There is no Science nor Canon (other than the name in the game manual) to explain anything about these weapons, however many theories have been made, including that the weapon is a 'shell' acting like a missile or rocket, or that it is some type of highly advanced Plasma Weapon. Another theory is that it is some form of Directed-Energy weapon similar to a Microwave Generator, but rather than generating Microwaves, generates a series of particles or 'signal' that disrupts the target at the molecular level, thereby damaging and destroying the very materials the target is made out of. Personally, I consider Wave Cannons to be a type of Plasma, Particle or Directed-Energy Weapon, though I am open to suggestions and explanations. It would seem, however, that the majority of the community believes Wave Cannons are a form of Plasma Cannon, much more similar to the Advent Plasma Cannon than the Pulse Gun, in both sophistication and damage output.
Disintegrators
Science: The name Disintegrators describes the effect of the weapon, not so much about the method of how the damage is inflicted. One theory is that Disintegrators affect the target at a molecular level, effectively disintegrating the very molecules of the target and causing it to fall apart like sand.
Fiction: Molecular Manipulation Weapons only exists in Science Fiction, However, as we dont not know that Disintegrators are MMW's, we cannot compare the two. However, even more advanced that simply disconnecting molecules is the re-arraging of them to form a new structure, or to destabilise an existing one. For instance, use of an MMW to use the very molecules of the bulkheads or hull to create an explosive device or biological weapon within the target, or to turn the target itself into an explosive device. Alternatively, using an MMW to disintegrate the crew of a ship, leaving the ship unmanned for pilaging. Another example is to simply breach the hull of the ship near the bridge, or breach the ships reactor shielding by disintegrating the molecules that make up the shielding. These types of attacks are incredibly deadly, simple, effective, and, most of all, generally uncounterable. However, once again, the above explanation is, of course, total speculation. The simple fact that the Vasari race is so old and advanced implies that most of their weapons may not even be within our comprehension yet.
Yet to come:
Explanations of: Shields and Shield Mitigation, Hull and Armor, Engines, Phase Drives, Super Weapons Abilities.
Also: Accepting suggestions for other topics, and,
Please tell me if I've made any grievous spelling errors. Thanks.
Makes sense.
Also, the OP said that hes going to make explanations of shields, shield mitigation etc. I haven't got any ideas, does anyone else?
shields are just layers of cold and hot plasma. Mitigation is adjusting the temperature/magnetic field strength/harmonics to increase its ability to absorb damage.
I like that idea of plasma layer. Now I would see the mitigation as a passive, natural process. The damage inflicted on the shield actually pumps energy into the hot plasma layer heating it up further. As space is pretty cold, it cools down to its initial threshhold if no damage is applied over some time. By heating up the shield becomes more effective (=increased mitigation) until the heat of the outer plasma layer reaches a certain temperature that leads to the collapse of the whole shield.
Neutrino: one of the smallest particles, this particle has no mass, however it does contain quite a bit of energy.
@ volt-creulerz
to my knowledge, neutrinos are classified as WIMPs, or Weakly Interacting Massive particles. they DO have mass, but it is very small. you are correct, however in that they have a lot of energy as they are formed regulary during things like nuclear fusion and are found to be streaming in copious amounts from stars. the downfall is that they rarely, if ever, interact with physical matter. for example, you are bathed in neutrinos at all times, but only about three will ever interact with any atoms in your body in your entire life.
on phase missiles:
it would be interseting if, that as the missile struck the shields, it used the energy from the impact to power the internal phase drive to propel the payload past the sheild. this would both explain the failure rate (this isn't imperfect process, and if it fails it still causes damage) and the reason that it cannot bypass the hull (there isn't enough energy to fuel the phase drive and/or it burns itself out in the process).
i also am a fan of the idea that it is simply a missile equipted with a phase drive that uses computers to time the phase jump. the drive would have similar limitations as above. the reason that they may not be able to bypass hulls may be the power restraints of phase jumping and the chance that the missile may phase in somewhere inside the hull. what happens then is anyone guess.
The only problem with this is mitigation affects the armor of the ship too and in the manual it says that computers are brought online to manage mitigation.
I think the devs took some creative liberities with science here and just made mitigation a gameplay mechanic to allow caps to survive focus fire a little longer.
I do have a question on what you mean by "cold plasma" plasma is superheated matter, so even if it is cooler than the "hot plasma" it would still melt any physical object that struck it
Honestly, I think the OP is interesting and all, but discussion itself is pointless.
Unless one of you is going to invent a Sins of a Solar Empire Role Playing System like D&D, Warhammer or whatever, discussing logical explanations of purely imaginative phenomena is illogical by itself.
well, IT does bring out interesting weapons ideas for mods and such, and there are some people who like to know how all that kind of stuff works.
As far as neutrinos go, I knew the part about their lack of an ability to react effectively with normal matter..
Uhh... adjusting those qualities would be using the computers you are speaking of.
And there are two types of plasma. Hot plasma and Cold plasma.
Hot Plasma: This is what most people think of when they think of plasma. This includes lightning, the sun, and the shots fired by plasma weapons. This is more or less "standard" plasma. Upon impact with matter, the plasma will actually cool in many cases as the round is likely at room temperature or cooler as opposed to HP which is in the millions. The way that HP works is that it disintegrates matter that impacts it due to the high temperatures.
Cold Plasma: This constitutes the outer and inner layers of shields and acts as an insulator for the hot plasma. Cold Plasma is at room temperature or cooler. Using powerful lasers and magnets, it is possible to achieve fusion in plasma like this (and they have done it where it generates more energy than it consumes, but only by about .0003%. In other words, it runs itself, but that's about it. Its still not really profitable yet. Now, cold plasma is also unique in that it can make Plasma Windows.
Plasma Windows: These barriers are made of cold plasma and function as a barrier between the compressed interior of ships and the vacuum of space. One of these has been built and solid matter can go through it, although air cannot.
CP Part II: Just like the PW's above, CP can also function as a barrier against energy weapons. Lasers and plasma are easily resisted by it, leaving the HP to deal with physical matter.
For this reason, you have layers of CP and HP.
Mitigation is present on the armor of the ship as well as the shields, the armor is solid, not plasma.
On shields, adjusting the properties of the plasma makes sense, but for armor it is hard to visualize
Well, unless of course you have "skin shields" which coat the hull itself. Then it would make sense..
Another note on Vasari Phase Missiles and why their shield-negation has a low percent of activation.
Looking at their military research, their 'Phase Miniaturization' technology indicates that Phase Missiles are a very new weapon for the Vasari Exodus. This lack of research also indicates why the missiles have only a 30% maximum chance of shield-negation.
I don't think so. I believe it has to do with the thickness of the shield it is impacting. You can't be sure how thick the shield will be when it re-enters, so you have to take a guess. This would explain why Shield Disruption increases PM bypassing and the Kol reduxes it.
I love this thread. It's all so interesting to see the different theories people have.
On a side note-
solar&magnetic sails in Sins- how to implement them in a SEMI-REALISTIC fashion; are 'sails' that pulse dark matter possible?; also, a semi-realistic way to implement a Dyson Sphere.
solar sails work, magnetic ones would in theory, but what does dark matter have to do with anything?
And the payoff from building a full-fledged Dyson Sphere would far outweigh any expenditure of time or energy. If you can tap into more than 50% of the energy emited by a star, you can expect to have more energy than you will ever need.
Dark matter makes up most of the universe, and the space in-between galaxies. If a sail could be made to produce thrust be accelerating dark matter through a ring-shaped, sail-like structure, an efficient (propulsion/fuel wise, maybe not time wise) means if inter-steller/inter-GALACTIC (<- MORE IMPORTANT FOR CONCEPT!!!) travel would have been created.
First off, I know what dark matter is...
So... You are thinking of something like a Graviton Scramjet Engine? I mean, DM only interacts via gravity, so you would need gravitons, but at that point, you may as well just make a warp drive, so...
well, 1st- I wasn't sure if you knew what DM was, so I thought I'd say what it was. 2nd, I didn't know DM only interacts via gravity, which makes my idea essentially worthless *sigh*.
It sounded so good in my head when I thought it up. On the other hand, what of an Anti-Matter annihilation 'Scramjet'. That might be cool.
One of the things I'm am trying to work with for these ideas is that they require little reaction mass (they use what's already out there, w00t!), so that's more space on the ship that uses them for, say, weapons, ordnance, ammunition, fuel for maneuvering engines, live support systems, food, water, personnel, cargo, armor, shielding systems.
Using AM to create photinos will give no zero thrust as photinos have no mass. Therefore, they don't have any "kick" when you fling them at something. You have to use the AM to power Tensor Fields (gravity manipulation fields) or some other system. Photinos themselves cannot power something via thrust although their collision with something can act like it in the case of a solar sail.
Once again though, you may as well just build a warp engine...
I put a little thought into the phase missles and I had this one,
A reason for why the phase missles only bypass the shields and not say fly into the bridge and engine room is that they can only afford to be out of phase with the rest of the universe for only a moment.
Leaving the energy requirement for shifting into phase space and back alone, as you described it a missle leaves the space time or dimension of everyone else so entering into phase space the missle would effectively make itself blind.
Upon entering phase space a missle would have no bearing, it would be nigh impossible to accurately and consistently stike the other ship where you wanted. You would also have to know if 1 meter traveled in phase space = 1 meter traveled in normal space. And since you are out of phase with your universe, you wouldn't have any meens of knowing if you on the course you intended.
So in short, traveling any distance through phase space wouldn't be feaseable for a missle. Better to only pop in and out for an instant than risk it.
Risk what? overshooting the target? in most cases i think the distance between the shield and the hull is less than the total width of the ship (from port to starboard)
i cant say i agree with this. For the TEC or Advent maybe, as their Phase Space tech isnt as advanced as the Vasari, but since the Vasari have the Phase Space thing nailed down, i dont think it would be that hard to quantify the nature of phase space (i.e. if one meter in PS is equivalent to 1 meter in normal space), and therefore compensate. Since we know travel in phase space is much faster than that in normal space, all one would have to do is fire a PM at a point in-line with the engine room or bridge, then tell the missile to phase out for idn, 1/1000th a second or whatever more than it does currently...
the only feasible explanation i can think of is power requirements... (though making the missile slightly larger to incorporate a larger power supply would fix this...), then again, if a single Kanrak Assailant could take out a fleet of cap ships because it can fire directly into the bridge/engine room/armoury of each ship, destroying them with but a few missiles, the game would be horribly broken... so i guess sometimes you need to leave it up to poetic licence
It already is horribly broken already....
Wouldn't it make sense for the missle to just be in phase space the whole time? From the moment it fires (using the ship's power systems), the missle would then only need to have enough internal power to go back to real space at the right time, which the vasari could calculate fairly easily with how much knowledge of phase space they have. The missle's travel time would be effectively instant, no more slow flying phase missles.
That was just an idea, obviously not the system the vasari use though
I agree on the poetic license,
I based my idea on the whole invisiblilty problem, you make yourself invisible to the world but at the same time you have made the world invisible to yourself.
Since the missle would be blind for the time it was in phase space it would have to make very carefull calculations, how fast is my target moving? how fast am I moving? was the target turning? ect. You could compensate that with some serious computers tho.
exactly, and i can imagine the Vasari having such powerful computers, being baddass advanced and all
not necessarily... its possible that phase space does not operate based on the principals of the invisibility system you described. For instance, targets outside of phase space can detect individual targets inside phase space, so why not vice versa?
but, the main thing i was going to say was in reference to the "how fast am i going?" question you asked of the missiles. If the speeds of a target within a grav well are comparable to that of one outside of a grav well, then it would be much like firing a Railgun at a long distance target, the sheer speed of the projectile precludes the need for any large 'leading' of the target... if a phase missile is travelling (in phase space) at great speeds, the target location (i.e. engine room) should be in the same place upon exiting PS as it was upon entering
oooh. I like that idea, hehehehehe.
That would make sense, given that entire ships require several seconds to perform a transition to phase space. A missile could hardly be expected to be given a phase drive with the same accuracy as a ship-bourne system.
Then again, the TEC can shorten this charging time (their Quick Jump Calculation tech shortens the charge-up process) so the 30% chance to bypass could be the Vasari being forced to base their calculations on several assumptions. After all, their Phase Prediction tech improves the ability of their missiles to more accurately anticipate when it is optimal to phase out to bypass hostile shields.
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