So ive been seeing alot of debates about the Science used in Sins.
While i certainly enjoy having these debates in whatever thread they pop up in, i thought id make a definitive thread about as much as i can come up with.
I'll add to this as time goes by. Im more than welcome to corrections, debate and suggestions. Note that im just doing this off the top of my head as im sitting here, so i you would like to submit details (number values and what not) feel free.
so, from the top:
WEAPONS
TEC:
AutoCannons
Science: Generally considered as some for of Mass Driver. For this reason, it is understood that AutoCannons use magnetic forces to propel a solid, dense object called a 'slug' at extreme speeds. Generally, the most widely used material for the slugs is Tungsten, though other metals can be used. In the present, AutoCannon equivalents can only fire 1 round at a time, overheat quite quickly, and either damage themselves with each shot fired (Railguns) or are ineffecient or inaccurate (Coilguns/Gauss cannons). However they are a new technology, so these results are expected to improve.
Fiction: Sins AutoCannons, aside from the unusual and generally non-descriptive name, hold quite true to what can be construed to be feasible technology 1000+ years from now. There is, however, one flaw in the theory or ACs being Mass Drivers, in that on stage of TEC AC research entails advancement in Cartrige Propellants, indicating that AutoCannons are, in fact, just that - large, automatically reloading and re-firing Cannons like those you would find on a tank or artillery piece, though, given the scale of Sins, a much larger weapon round size, perhaps up to 220mm or greater, could be expected.
Lasers
Science: Lasers are concentrated beams of light which, through bombarding the target with charged particles, create massive amounts of heat and thereby damage the target. Lasers can be generated in a number of ways, and it is unclear how Lasers in Sins are generated. It can be assumed, however, that the generation methods differ between Advent and TEC, due to the different damage outputs and effeciencies, and, of course, the colour of the beam.
Fiction: In Sins, TEC Lasers are short, red lines that travel from the ship to the target at a relatively leisurely pace. This is not accurate as it is a known fact that in a vacuum, Lasers travel at the speed of light, and so you wouldnt see the laser leave the 'barrel' and hit the target in a short line like we do, rather, you would see something more akin to Sins Beam weaponry. Even though in the game they are called Pulse Lasers, such a differentiation would simply mean that the laser would fire multiple times in quick succession over a short period, rather than a long, sustained burst. They would, however, remain similar in appearance to Beam weponry.
Missiles
Science: Missiles are generally considered nowadays to refer to Single- or Multi-Stage, self-propelled explosive devices. Generally straight-forward, Missiles burn fuel to propel themselves at great speed towards a target, where, depending on the type of missile, it will either explode, or, in the case of TEC Missiles and the LRF Cluster Bombs ability upgrade, release multiple smaller warheads, capable of dealing potentially greater damage over a larger area to more targets. Missiles can have a any of a number of different guidance systems, on-board or relayed, than enable the missile to home in on its target more effectively. It is assumed, since missiles fired from a ship that has since been destroyed do not fly off harmlessly or detonate, that TEC missiles use on-board guidance systems, although it is possible those systems are simply backups for main targetting systems relying on the more powerful sensors on the host ship.
Fiction: Many science fiction universes show space battles as (relatively speaking) close range affairs, where lasers, guns, cannons, railguns, missiles, energy blasts etc are all being fired from within visual range. However, other universes suggest space battles be a matter of fleets sitting thousands, millions or even lightminutes away from each other, firing missiles into the void and hoping that you dont get hit by an even bigger volley in return. Even todays missiles can fire into space or at targets half way around the world. For this reason, it is not unreasonable to assume that with the vacuum in space, improved propellants, and longer ranged sensors, that this reality may not come true. The answer to that question, however, is yet to be seen and cannot be answered simply.
On another note, all missiles in Sins appear able to turn at incredible angles, effectively on the spot. Its like driving a car at 200 kp\h and making a 90 degree right turn within 10 meters. This is of course false, but can be attributed to a graphical and computational glitch which does not negatively affect gameplay, and so is left alone.
Beams
Science: A particle beam is an accelerated stream of charged particles or neutrons (often moving at very near the speed of light) which may be directed by magnets and focused by electrostatic lenses, although they may also be self-focusing. Subatomic particles such as electrons, positrons, and protons can be accelerated to high velocities and energies by machines that impart energy to the particles in small stages or nudges, ultimately achieving very high energy particle beams, measured in terms of billions and even trillions of electron volts. High energy beams are created in particle accelerators, in which a charged particle is drawn forward by an electrostatic (not magnetic) field with a charge opposite to the particle (like charges repel one another, opposites attract); as the particle passes the source of each field, the charge of the field is reversed so that the particle is now pushed on to another field source. Through a series of fields in sequence, the particle accelerates until it is moving at a high speed. A natural analogy to particle beams is lightning, where electrons flow from negatively charged clouds to positively charged clouds or the earth.
Fiction: Since Weaponised Particle Beams are not widespread at present (though they do exist and have been experimented with since 1958), it is difficult to say whether Sins Particle Beams, both TEC and Advent, are accurate representations. One question is, though, whether real Particle Beams would, in fact, appear as they do in Sins, rather than something akin to lightening.
Advent:
Science: Advent Lasers would be very similiar in method of generation and power output to TEC Lasers. The term blue laser is frequently applied to semiconductor laser diode based on gallium nitride. These new devices have applications in many areas ranging from optoelectronic data storage at high-density to medical applications. The shorter wavelength allows the laser to transfer much more information that a standard red laser.
Fiction: Modern Blue Lasers are used mainly for Telecommunications, IT, Medical and Environmental monitoring systems, and projectors. At present, no weaponised forms exist or are predicted, though in 1000+ years, this can certainly change. Also, by the same token that TEC Lasers are not accurate representations, so too are Advent Lasers, in that they should travel from ship to target at the speed of light (effectively instantly).
Science: Advent Beams would be very similar to TEC Beams in terms of basic physics, however, the 'sharpness' of the beam indicates a greatly improved effeciency, and, therefore, power and damage output.
Fiction: Once again, it is unclear if Sins Particle Beams are accurate representations. Similarly to TEC Beams, however, it is unclear if Sins Beam effects are accurate.
Plasma
Science: Plasma weapons use a small nuclear reactor or fuel cell or other type of advanced energy storage device to power an electromagnetic accelerator that fires a stream, pulse or toroid of plasma (i.e. very hot, very energetic excited matter).Plasma-based weaponry is any group of weapons designed to use high-energy ionized gas or "plasma", typically created by superheating lasers or superfrequency devices. The primary damage mechanism of these fictional weapons is usually thermal transfer; it typically causes serious burns, and often immediate death of living creatures, and melts or evaporates other materials. In certain fiction, plasma weapons may also have a significant kinetic energy component, that is to say the ionized material is projected with sufficient momentum to cause some secondary impact damage in addition to causing high thermal damage
Fiction: As Plasma Weapons do not yet exist outside of Science Fiction, it is difficult to determine if plasma weapons in Sins are accurate representations. However, it is understandable that plasma, if charged to a high enough level, would do damage to the shields and hull of a ship.
Psionic Surge
Science: These weapons are unique to Sins of a Solar Empire, and do not exist in reality or other popular works of Science Fiction. As such, there is no real 'Science" to speak of. However, Canon explains Advent Psionic Surges as concentrated Psychic Energy being deployed against targets in the form of a large blue cone shaped blast. This weapon is the only Advent weapon that can change course while in flight to the target.
Fiction: It is unclear how psychic energy can cause physical damage to a target. it is assumed, however, that the weird space/time anomalies (such as possible powerful shifts in gravity, power surges and EMP-like blasts) could cause a ship to be damaged or destroyed.
Vasari
Vasari weapons (with the exception of Phase Missiles) are entirely the stuff of fiction. As such, there is very little in the way of science, however, here is some Canon to base assumptions from.
Pulse Guns (Plasma)
Science: Unfortunately, my rather interesting, inspired (in my opinion) speculation on the science behind Pulse Guns seems to have been overturned by the simple fact that in the Game Manual, Pulse Guns are referred to as Plasma Pulse Guns. For this reason, it is understood that Pulse Guns operate in much the same way as Advent Plasma Cannons, except on a smaller scale (and perhaps more effecient yet with a lower damage output). However, the inaccuracy of the weapon and haphazard trajectory of each blast - congruent with the style of Advent Plasma Weapons (which, naturally, we know to be without a doubt plasma based) - would support this fact.
Fiction: Certain Science Fiction Universes hold Weaponised Plasma to be an ultimate weapon, due to its massive damage output and high accuracy. While Sins holds true to the massive damage output (at least in the case of Advent Plasma weapons... Vasari Pulse Gun equivalents leave much to be desired...), the high accuracy is one convention not held to. The reasoning of the high accuracy is that electro-magnetic manipulation of the plasma can continue even once the bolt has left the weapon, and as such can have its flight trajectory altered mid-flight. This, however, does not seem to be the case with Sins. Also, the odd colouring of Vasari Plasma weapons does not seem to hold true to most traditions, as plasma is generally depicted in whites, blues, violets and similar colours, rather than the Vasari green
Pulse Beams
Science: Again, it is unclear how Pulse Beams actually work. Once again, the name is non-descript, however the each word does give some clues. It is possible that the Pulse Beam is simply a standard Particle Beam, simply pulse-fired intead of in a constant stream. However, I, personally, like a bit of variety, and for that reason, my opinion is that Pulse Beams are either some form of Neutron Particle Accelerator (yes, its a Particle Beam, but not exactly the same as TEC and Advent Beams) or a Hard Radiation Directed Energy Weapon, that takes hard radiation like gamma rays, and fires them in a concentrated blast at the target.
Fiction: The above explanation is, of course, total speculation. The simple fact that the Vasari race is so old and advanced implies that most of their weapons may not even be within our comprehension yet.
Phase Missiles
Science: It would appear that Phase Missiles are very similar to standard TEC Missiles when you get down to the basics. However, aside from a possibly much greater damage potential due to advanced Vasari technology, their main strength lies in their ability to bypass enemy target shields completely and deal damage directly to the hull. This is done by temporarily shifting the missile to Phase Space, and out of the same 'dimension' or 'space/time' as the target shields, thereby passing right through them with no ill effects. Once bypassing the shield, the missiles are free to detonate on or near the target hull, dealing damage as a normal missile. It is important to note the Phase Missiles only have a 30% chance to bypass [shields], though this may be improved through research.
Fiction: Logically speaking, the science of Phase Missiles seems pretty strong. However, questions remain as to the effectiveness of the weapon. If the weapon can shift into phase space, why cant the Vasari sit a fleet on their homeworld and fire Phase Missiles at targets in other Gravity Wells, thereby removing any threat of retaliation from enemy forces? Some poeple credit this with the small size of the missile requiring a very small and potentially ineffecient (and therefore extremely short lived) Phase Drive within the missile, meaning that the missile can only be in Phase Space for a short period (possibly to the degree of a fraction of a second) before returning to normal space.
If the weapon can bypass shields, why not the hull as well? A few, well aimed missiles fired at the Bridge, Engine Room, Reactor Room, Ammo Cache, and other Targets of Opportunity, would destroy any and every targetted ship with minimal fuss and cost. This is explained with the same reason a Phase Missile cannon be fired from a planet away, as the Phase Drives within the missile may not have the sustainability to breach the shield AND hull.
Why not a single missile loaded with a biological weapon, fired into the Life Support Systems, and detonating, killing all crew on board while salvaging the ship? With the 30% chance to bypass, ideally the Vasari would have to fire more than 3 times the number of missiles to ensure a sufficient number penetrated, with 70% of missile impacting harmlessly on the hull.
With such an effective and versatile weapon, it is also unclear why the Vasari utilise other types of weapons, however, many people believe that Phase Missiles would be relatively expensive, both in terms of actual cost and space requirements for the missiles within each ship. It is also believed that the Vasari have other weapons due to the threat of an enemy being able to counter the effectiveness of Phase Missiles (such technology is evident in the TEC Kol Battleship's Adaptive Forcefield ability), thereby rendering a Vasari fleet all but entirely harmless.
Wave Cannons (Plasma)
Science: Like most other Vasari weapons, it is unclear how Wave Cannons work, though in the game manual calls them Plasma Wave Cannons. The wave in the name, in fact, references the appearance of the blast generated by the weapon. Wave Cannons are held to be the most powerful and advanced Vasari ship-based weapon, being utilised only on their Heavy Cruiser and Capital Ships. There is no Science nor Canon (other than the name in the game manual) to explain anything about these weapons, however many theories have been made, including that the weapon is a 'shell' acting like a missile or rocket, or that it is some type of highly advanced Plasma Weapon. Another theory is that it is some form of Directed-Energy weapon similar to a Microwave Generator, but rather than generating Microwaves, generates a series of particles or 'signal' that disrupts the target at the molecular level, thereby damaging and destroying the very materials the target is made out of. Personally, I consider Wave Cannons to be a type of Plasma, Particle or Directed-Energy Weapon, though I am open to suggestions and explanations. It would seem, however, that the majority of the community believes Wave Cannons are a form of Plasma Cannon, much more similar to the Advent Plasma Cannon than the Pulse Gun, in both sophistication and damage output.
Disintegrators
Science: The name Disintegrators describes the effect of the weapon, not so much about the method of how the damage is inflicted. One theory is that Disintegrators affect the target at a molecular level, effectively disintegrating the very molecules of the target and causing it to fall apart like sand.
Fiction: Molecular Manipulation Weapons only exists in Science Fiction, However, as we dont not know that Disintegrators are MMW's, we cannot compare the two. However, even more advanced that simply disconnecting molecules is the re-arraging of them to form a new structure, or to destabilise an existing one. For instance, use of an MMW to use the very molecules of the bulkheads or hull to create an explosive device or biological weapon within the target, or to turn the target itself into an explosive device. Alternatively, using an MMW to disintegrate the crew of a ship, leaving the ship unmanned for pilaging. Another example is to simply breach the hull of the ship near the bridge, or breach the ships reactor shielding by disintegrating the molecules that make up the shielding. These types of attacks are incredibly deadly, simple, effective, and, most of all, generally uncounterable. However, once again, the above explanation is, of course, total speculation. The simple fact that the Vasari race is so old and advanced implies that most of their weapons may not even be within our comprehension yet.
Yet to come:
Explanations of: Shields and Shield Mitigation, Hull and Armor, Engines, Phase Drives, Super Weapons Abilities.
Also: Accepting suggestions for other topics, and,
Please tell me if I've made any grievous spelling errors. Thanks.
Your guesses are just that, but top marks for trying.
I didn't know that +/- quarks existed, I always thought that it was top/bottom, up/down and charm/strange. Then there is squarks and antiquarks. Also, quarks have "colour". There is red, blue and green quarks. Antiquarks are anti-red, anti-blue or anti-green. Correct me if i'm wrong.
Also, gluons hold quarks together. They are particles of force. I don't know if they have mass or not.
Mwahahahaha!!! Volt, your giving me some fun ideas!
No one has commented on my phase missile lecture. Oh well.
I believe you are correct about the color... Once again, I haven't seen that book in quite some time, so I wasn't expecting to get everything entirely correct...
As far as gluons go, they may be, but I was thinking they did actually have mass... Maybe not though...
Well, I'll have to do that...
Gluons transmit the Weak Nuclear Force...I think.
But that is where my physics gets fuzzy, I am only starting my second year...
lol.
Everything's made from marshmallow.
Delicious...
The only viable explanation of phase missiles is through use of quantum physics. Ever heard of wave-particle duality? It's the same principle, where basically their "missiles" are light based, and not really matter, while shields are composed of a something similar. Basically when it is fired, it has a chance of "bypassing" the light barrier that is the shield, because the missile itself is light, and not a projectile slug of metal. You could think of it as a quantum container of composed of fermionic particles to make missile be substance enough to fly, while the missile that explodes is basically contrasting bosonic particles that violent crash into the shield, and because of their bosonic properties, are able to penetrate the hull
except that lasers are light based as well and are stopped by the shields
Well, after doing some research, it appears that Gluons are actually the mediator of the Great Force... One thing I would love to know is how on earth the thing goes from weak>impassibly strong>nothing. At extremely short distance (on the subatomic level), the great force is relatively weak, allowing quarks to move around, but upon moving a set distance apart, they essentially hit a wall and have no choice but to turn around. That and they are not like gravity and electromagnetism which are inverse squares. Inverse squares make sense, but I don't understand how a force could possibly just "dissapear" after 1x10^-18 meters... Just doesn't make sense that it wouldn't have some some sort of fall...
I didn't specifically say light, I just said some general bosonic particle
Except that 9999/10000 shields are going to be composite plasma shields. Cold Plasma windows as we know will stop gasses, but will also block heat and will absorb quite a bit of the light you throw at it. Hot Plasma well, is like the sun... You poke it and you can expect your arm to be vaporized.
More than likely, small craft will just be like:
CP|HP|CP. The CP stops the escape of energy from the HP while the HP itself provides a very effective defense.
Large Craft would look more like:
CP|HP|CP|HP|CP|HP|CP. Due to multiple layers, the shield would be able to seal one layer while receiving damage elsewhere.
The point is, converting your missile into photinos would work best as a photino beam. I mean, if you took an average missile which weighs lets say 100 kilos that would yield such a massive amount of energy output that the photino beam would be CB on steroids and then some. It is something like 120 tonnes is enough to destroy a planet. Sure, you won't blow up a planet with it, but I guarantee that you could wipe a continent and possibly the whole thing clean of life. If it ain't five miles below the surface on the other side of the planet, its not gonna do so well...
Besides, I don't think there is any way to cause photinos to recompose in a practical manner. Sure, photinos can recompose naturally, but only at a very slow rate, so by firing a photino beam, you would have just made a giant no-mans-land as the photinos slowly compose into matter and antimatter until after a few centuries (at the absolute bare minimum) it has all become normal matter and the levels of AM are negligible.
hey, would weapon systems employing AM warheads fit into the lore of Sins (this is for a new race/possibly also Vasari)?
Well, I'm assuming that the weapons in the game already use AM for their weapons. After all, AM is the most dense energy storage system outside of doing odd things with the fabric of space-time like firing a black hole that is about ready to evaporate at a target. That would just be cruel.
Thing about black holes... They are the only thing that actually generates more energy than they ever absorbed as gravity slowly pulls everything closer and closer until it collides, generates heat, and just simply gets faster to the point of going way faster than c. Once you destroy the singularity, you just released a LOT of energy... not something you want to be around...
OOOOH, SUPERWEAPON BLACK HOLE LAUNCHER!! (drools mindlessly at thought)
Very nice thread! very informative!
Get Galactic Civilizations II (plus add-ons) and you can get them
Phase missiles have an upgrade called Nano-Molecularly-Engineered Warheads so that blows that theory out of the water.
Once again, phase missile need to phase through a shield, but they need to be in "real space" to inflict actual damage. For a high speed missile to phase through a shield and come into "real space" at just the right moment to dmage the hull, phase missiles must "phase out" for an extremely short period of time.
Perhaps the reason that they cannot phase back in inside of something is that their detonators can't activate properly.
First, let's assume that they have AM or some otherwise unfriendly warhead inside that would be VERY bad inside your own ship. As such, the detonators have multiple failsafes so that you won't blow yourself up. Now, due to the nature of the missiles, the detonators would be digital, not analog.
Now you must understand how something phases out to begin with. When they do so, you become invisible to the world around you and you can pass through normal objects. Anything that is also phased out you could interact with however.
It must be noted that electricity CAN jump phases. So, just because you have your Phase Cloak on doesn't mean you can't get hit with an Ion Bolt if the enemy gets lucky.
It is for this reason that PM's cannot detonate inside their targets. Due to their digital (electric) detonators and the ability of electricity to jump phases, they cannot as the ship's own electricity would temporarily neutralize the detonators.
Another thing to note is that jumping phases is difficult. It cannot be done while in a ship as you would get something like a claymore rather than a bomb. Sure, claymores are nice, but it would only damage one string of electronics, not an entire area of the ship. For this reason, the vasari incorporated failsafe features to ensure that their missiles would be most effective.
Perhaps Phase Missiles are just Missiles and only the explosive warhead is able to phase through shields. That would at least explain why Phase Missiles actually are quite slow when moving towards enemy ships. (another point agains the "PMs are light-based" theory)
In my imagination the Phase Missile is just a normal Missile consisting of real matter but with a very special warhead that actually reacts with the enemy shield by absorbing its energy and transforming matter to photons which then can switch phases for a very short moment, just enough to pass the shields before phasing back and inflicting "laser-like" damage on the target hull.
Sicne this reaction of matter conversion with shield energy is extremely complex the chance to bypass shields is pretty low at the beginning. But as research becomes better this chance of bypassing shields increases with an increased matter-to-photon transformation ratio and better adjustments of the energy needed to switch phases.
But they go boom... And besides, lasers get stopped by shields too...
This thread clearly needs more string theory.
Hehehe... No. Of all the laws of physics, most are fairly concrete, but I'm not debating the existence of Class X multiverses and their effects on things. In fact, nothing in the game is even remotely connected to ST. Phase drives are just phasing yourself out and then warping space around you. Why you phase out first seems pointless to me, but oh well... Copyright issues...
Is what I said really that complicated?
Thats my point. Phase missiles need to "phase in" back into "real space" to be able to do damage to the hull. They only by-pass shields, not the ship.
Phase missiles don't pass-through normal objects (the enemies' ships hull). This is because they "phased in" and just the right time and for just the right amount of time.
For phase missiles to by-pass the shields, but not the ship means that they must "phase out" for a tiny fraction of a second.
And yes, ST doesn't belong here.
Agreed. In order to afflict damage to the hull the missile needs to be in the same phase space as the target ship.
But I want to come back to my suggestion: Since a missile usually is only a transportation system for an explosive warhead there is no need for the whole missile to switch phase forth and back. In my eyes it is completely sufficient if the transportation system (missile) gets destroyed on the enemy shield as long as the damage-inflicting part (the warhead) somehow manages to phase through the shield. And that is probably much easier to realize anyway.
no, because if the missile body is destroyed against the shield, HOW DOES THE WARHEAD GO THROUGH?!?!
It could be that the warhead has a very high mass and is more of a kinetic kill vehicle, designed to flatten against the hull and punch a hole, than an explosive. It would still carry a charge, but a even a toothpick can hit with the force of a nuke if it is going fast enough...
The missle body is too large for the phase drive to phase out, so it only phases the warhead through the shield. This would actually give the burned out phase drive a chance to damage the shield while the warhead continues through to damage the hull.
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