So ive been seeing alot of debates about the Science used in Sins.
While i certainly enjoy having these debates in whatever thread they pop up in, i thought id make a definitive thread about as much as i can come up with.
I'll add to this as time goes by. Im more than welcome to corrections, debate and suggestions. Note that im just doing this off the top of my head as im sitting here, so i you would like to submit details (number values and what not) feel free.
so, from the top:
WEAPONS
TEC:
AutoCannons
Science: Generally considered as some for of Mass Driver. For this reason, it is understood that AutoCannons use magnetic forces to propel a solid, dense object called a 'slug' at extreme speeds. Generally, the most widely used material for the slugs is Tungsten, though other metals can be used. In the present, AutoCannon equivalents can only fire 1 round at a time, overheat quite quickly, and either damage themselves with each shot fired (Railguns) or are ineffecient or inaccurate (Coilguns/Gauss cannons). However they are a new technology, so these results are expected to improve.
Fiction: Sins AutoCannons, aside from the unusual and generally non-descriptive name, hold quite true to what can be construed to be feasible technology 1000+ years from now. There is, however, one flaw in the theory or ACs being Mass Drivers, in that on stage of TEC AC research entails advancement in Cartrige Propellants, indicating that AutoCannons are, in fact, just that - large, automatically reloading and re-firing Cannons like those you would find on a tank or artillery piece, though, given the scale of Sins, a much larger weapon round size, perhaps up to 220mm or greater, could be expected.
Lasers
Science: Lasers are concentrated beams of light which, through bombarding the target with charged particles, create massive amounts of heat and thereby damage the target. Lasers can be generated in a number of ways, and it is unclear how Lasers in Sins are generated. It can be assumed, however, that the generation methods differ between Advent and TEC, due to the different damage outputs and effeciencies, and, of course, the colour of the beam.
Fiction: In Sins, TEC Lasers are short, red lines that travel from the ship to the target at a relatively leisurely pace. This is not accurate as it is a known fact that in a vacuum, Lasers travel at the speed of light, and so you wouldnt see the laser leave the 'barrel' and hit the target in a short line like we do, rather, you would see something more akin to Sins Beam weaponry. Even though in the game they are called Pulse Lasers, such a differentiation would simply mean that the laser would fire multiple times in quick succession over a short period, rather than a long, sustained burst. They would, however, remain similar in appearance to Beam weponry.
Missiles
Science: Missiles are generally considered nowadays to refer to Single- or Multi-Stage, self-propelled explosive devices. Generally straight-forward, Missiles burn fuel to propel themselves at great speed towards a target, where, depending on the type of missile, it will either explode, or, in the case of TEC Missiles and the LRF Cluster Bombs ability upgrade, release multiple smaller warheads, capable of dealing potentially greater damage over a larger area to more targets. Missiles can have a any of a number of different guidance systems, on-board or relayed, than enable the missile to home in on its target more effectively. It is assumed, since missiles fired from a ship that has since been destroyed do not fly off harmlessly or detonate, that TEC missiles use on-board guidance systems, although it is possible those systems are simply backups for main targetting systems relying on the more powerful sensors on the host ship.
Fiction: Many science fiction universes show space battles as (relatively speaking) close range affairs, where lasers, guns, cannons, railguns, missiles, energy blasts etc are all being fired from within visual range. However, other universes suggest space battles be a matter of fleets sitting thousands, millions or even lightminutes away from each other, firing missiles into the void and hoping that you dont get hit by an even bigger volley in return. Even todays missiles can fire into space or at targets half way around the world. For this reason, it is not unreasonable to assume that with the vacuum in space, improved propellants, and longer ranged sensors, that this reality may not come true. The answer to that question, however, is yet to be seen and cannot be answered simply.
On another note, all missiles in Sins appear able to turn at incredible angles, effectively on the spot. Its like driving a car at 200 kp\h and making a 90 degree right turn within 10 meters. This is of course false, but can be attributed to a graphical and computational glitch which does not negatively affect gameplay, and so is left alone.
Beams
Science: A particle beam is an accelerated stream of charged particles or neutrons (often moving at very near the speed of light) which may be directed by magnets and focused by electrostatic lenses, although they may also be self-focusing. Subatomic particles such as electrons, positrons, and protons can be accelerated to high velocities and energies by machines that impart energy to the particles in small stages or nudges, ultimately achieving very high energy particle beams, measured in terms of billions and even trillions of electron volts. High energy beams are created in particle accelerators, in which a charged particle is drawn forward by an electrostatic (not magnetic) field with a charge opposite to the particle (like charges repel one another, opposites attract); as the particle passes the source of each field, the charge of the field is reversed so that the particle is now pushed on to another field source. Through a series of fields in sequence, the particle accelerates until it is moving at a high speed. A natural analogy to particle beams is lightning, where electrons flow from negatively charged clouds to positively charged clouds or the earth.
Fiction: Since Weaponised Particle Beams are not widespread at present (though they do exist and have been experimented with since 1958), it is difficult to say whether Sins Particle Beams, both TEC and Advent, are accurate representations. One question is, though, whether real Particle Beams would, in fact, appear as they do in Sins, rather than something akin to lightening.
Advent:
Science: Advent Lasers would be very similiar in method of generation and power output to TEC Lasers. The term blue laser is frequently applied to semiconductor laser diode based on gallium nitride. These new devices have applications in many areas ranging from optoelectronic data storage at high-density to medical applications. The shorter wavelength allows the laser to transfer much more information that a standard red laser.
Fiction: Modern Blue Lasers are used mainly for Telecommunications, IT, Medical and Environmental monitoring systems, and projectors. At present, no weaponised forms exist or are predicted, though in 1000+ years, this can certainly change. Also, by the same token that TEC Lasers are not accurate representations, so too are Advent Lasers, in that they should travel from ship to target at the speed of light (effectively instantly).
Science: Advent Beams would be very similar to TEC Beams in terms of basic physics, however, the 'sharpness' of the beam indicates a greatly improved effeciency, and, therefore, power and damage output.
Fiction: Once again, it is unclear if Sins Particle Beams are accurate representations. Similarly to TEC Beams, however, it is unclear if Sins Beam effects are accurate.
Plasma
Science: Plasma weapons use a small nuclear reactor or fuel cell or other type of advanced energy storage device to power an electromagnetic accelerator that fires a stream, pulse or toroid of plasma (i.e. very hot, very energetic excited matter).Plasma-based weaponry is any group of weapons designed to use high-energy ionized gas or "plasma", typically created by superheating lasers or superfrequency devices. The primary damage mechanism of these fictional weapons is usually thermal transfer; it typically causes serious burns, and often immediate death of living creatures, and melts or evaporates other materials. In certain fiction, plasma weapons may also have a significant kinetic energy component, that is to say the ionized material is projected with sufficient momentum to cause some secondary impact damage in addition to causing high thermal damage
Fiction: As Plasma Weapons do not yet exist outside of Science Fiction, it is difficult to determine if plasma weapons in Sins are accurate representations. However, it is understandable that plasma, if charged to a high enough level, would do damage to the shields and hull of a ship.
Psionic Surge
Science: These weapons are unique to Sins of a Solar Empire, and do not exist in reality or other popular works of Science Fiction. As such, there is no real 'Science" to speak of. However, Canon explains Advent Psionic Surges as concentrated Psychic Energy being deployed against targets in the form of a large blue cone shaped blast. This weapon is the only Advent weapon that can change course while in flight to the target.
Fiction: It is unclear how psychic energy can cause physical damage to a target. it is assumed, however, that the weird space/time anomalies (such as possible powerful shifts in gravity, power surges and EMP-like blasts) could cause a ship to be damaged or destroyed.
Vasari
Vasari weapons (with the exception of Phase Missiles) are entirely the stuff of fiction. As such, there is very little in the way of science, however, here is some Canon to base assumptions from.
Pulse Guns (Plasma)
Science: Unfortunately, my rather interesting, inspired (in my opinion) speculation on the science behind Pulse Guns seems to have been overturned by the simple fact that in the Game Manual, Pulse Guns are referred to as Plasma Pulse Guns. For this reason, it is understood that Pulse Guns operate in much the same way as Advent Plasma Cannons, except on a smaller scale (and perhaps more effecient yet with a lower damage output). However, the inaccuracy of the weapon and haphazard trajectory of each blast - congruent with the style of Advent Plasma Weapons (which, naturally, we know to be without a doubt plasma based) - would support this fact.
Fiction: Certain Science Fiction Universes hold Weaponised Plasma to be an ultimate weapon, due to its massive damage output and high accuracy. While Sins holds true to the massive damage output (at least in the case of Advent Plasma weapons... Vasari Pulse Gun equivalents leave much to be desired...), the high accuracy is one convention not held to. The reasoning of the high accuracy is that electro-magnetic manipulation of the plasma can continue even once the bolt has left the weapon, and as such can have its flight trajectory altered mid-flight. This, however, does not seem to be the case with Sins. Also, the odd colouring of Vasari Plasma weapons does not seem to hold true to most traditions, as plasma is generally depicted in whites, blues, violets and similar colours, rather than the Vasari green
Pulse Beams
Science: Again, it is unclear how Pulse Beams actually work. Once again, the name is non-descript, however the each word does give some clues. It is possible that the Pulse Beam is simply a standard Particle Beam, simply pulse-fired intead of in a constant stream. However, I, personally, like a bit of variety, and for that reason, my opinion is that Pulse Beams are either some form of Neutron Particle Accelerator (yes, its a Particle Beam, but not exactly the same as TEC and Advent Beams) or a Hard Radiation Directed Energy Weapon, that takes hard radiation like gamma rays, and fires them in a concentrated blast at the target.
Fiction: The above explanation is, of course, total speculation. The simple fact that the Vasari race is so old and advanced implies that most of their weapons may not even be within our comprehension yet.
Phase Missiles
Science: It would appear that Phase Missiles are very similar to standard TEC Missiles when you get down to the basics. However, aside from a possibly much greater damage potential due to advanced Vasari technology, their main strength lies in their ability to bypass enemy target shields completely and deal damage directly to the hull. This is done by temporarily shifting the missile to Phase Space, and out of the same 'dimension' or 'space/time' as the target shields, thereby passing right through them with no ill effects. Once bypassing the shield, the missiles are free to detonate on or near the target hull, dealing damage as a normal missile. It is important to note the Phase Missiles only have a 30% chance to bypass [shields], though this may be improved through research.
Fiction: Logically speaking, the science of Phase Missiles seems pretty strong. However, questions remain as to the effectiveness of the weapon. If the weapon can shift into phase space, why cant the Vasari sit a fleet on their homeworld and fire Phase Missiles at targets in other Gravity Wells, thereby removing any threat of retaliation from enemy forces? Some poeple credit this with the small size of the missile requiring a very small and potentially ineffecient (and therefore extremely short lived) Phase Drive within the missile, meaning that the missile can only be in Phase Space for a short period (possibly to the degree of a fraction of a second) before returning to normal space.
If the weapon can bypass shields, why not the hull as well? A few, well aimed missiles fired at the Bridge, Engine Room, Reactor Room, Ammo Cache, and other Targets of Opportunity, would destroy any and every targetted ship with minimal fuss and cost. This is explained with the same reason a Phase Missile cannon be fired from a planet away, as the Phase Drives within the missile may not have the sustainability to breach the shield AND hull.
Why not a single missile loaded with a biological weapon, fired into the Life Support Systems, and detonating, killing all crew on board while salvaging the ship? With the 30% chance to bypass, ideally the Vasari would have to fire more than 3 times the number of missiles to ensure a sufficient number penetrated, with 70% of missile impacting harmlessly on the hull.
With such an effective and versatile weapon, it is also unclear why the Vasari utilise other types of weapons, however, many people believe that Phase Missiles would be relatively expensive, both in terms of actual cost and space requirements for the missiles within each ship. It is also believed that the Vasari have other weapons due to the threat of an enemy being able to counter the effectiveness of Phase Missiles (such technology is evident in the TEC Kol Battleship's Adaptive Forcefield ability), thereby rendering a Vasari fleet all but entirely harmless.
Wave Cannons (Plasma)
Science: Like most other Vasari weapons, it is unclear how Wave Cannons work, though in the game manual calls them Plasma Wave Cannons. The wave in the name, in fact, references the appearance of the blast generated by the weapon. Wave Cannons are held to be the most powerful and advanced Vasari ship-based weapon, being utilised only on their Heavy Cruiser and Capital Ships. There is no Science nor Canon (other than the name in the game manual) to explain anything about these weapons, however many theories have been made, including that the weapon is a 'shell' acting like a missile or rocket, or that it is some type of highly advanced Plasma Weapon. Another theory is that it is some form of Directed-Energy weapon similar to a Microwave Generator, but rather than generating Microwaves, generates a series of particles or 'signal' that disrupts the target at the molecular level, thereby damaging and destroying the very materials the target is made out of. Personally, I consider Wave Cannons to be a type of Plasma, Particle or Directed-Energy Weapon, though I am open to suggestions and explanations. It would seem, however, that the majority of the community believes Wave Cannons are a form of Plasma Cannon, much more similar to the Advent Plasma Cannon than the Pulse Gun, in both sophistication and damage output.
Disintegrators
Science: The name Disintegrators describes the effect of the weapon, not so much about the method of how the damage is inflicted. One theory is that Disintegrators affect the target at a molecular level, effectively disintegrating the very molecules of the target and causing it to fall apart like sand.
Fiction: Molecular Manipulation Weapons only exists in Science Fiction, However, as we dont not know that Disintegrators are MMW's, we cannot compare the two. However, even more advanced that simply disconnecting molecules is the re-arraging of them to form a new structure, or to destabilise an existing one. For instance, use of an MMW to use the very molecules of the bulkheads or hull to create an explosive device or biological weapon within the target, or to turn the target itself into an explosive device. Alternatively, using an MMW to disintegrate the crew of a ship, leaving the ship unmanned for pilaging. Another example is to simply breach the hull of the ship near the bridge, or breach the ships reactor shielding by disintegrating the molecules that make up the shielding. These types of attacks are incredibly deadly, simple, effective, and, most of all, generally uncounterable. However, once again, the above explanation is, of course, total speculation. The simple fact that the Vasari race is so old and advanced implies that most of their weapons may not even be within our comprehension yet.
Yet to come:
Explanations of: Shields and Shield Mitigation, Hull and Armor, Engines, Phase Drives, Super Weapons Abilities.
Also: Accepting suggestions for other topics, and,
Please tell me if I've made any grievous spelling errors. Thanks.
this is your answer
it is very realistic
Its all about inertia and momentum. A smaller, lighter craft requires less force to gain motion, and less force to stop. Those big capital ships need those big engines to accelerate their mass and overcome the enormous inertia associated with it, and require the same amount of force to halt its momentum.
Their is also no resistance in space, so momentum may carry a craft in a forward motion for as long as it needs without additional force indefinitely or until another force acts upon it. So after a craft accelerates to speed, it will indefinitely continue that motion and speed until something changes it (whether it be the ships own thrusters, space dust, gravity etc.)
One more thing. Pulse guns are actually called "plasma pulse guns" it seems no one else has noticed. Also wave cannons are actually called "plasma wave cannons". Pulse guns are just plasma guns with a unique name. Wave cannons may use waves as a mechanism to project plasma projectiles. Thats my guess.
As for pulse beams, they seem to be simply beam cannons with a short pulse.
As for phase missiles, they may be much more expensive then other weapons which would restrict their use.
Last of all, I'm sure that disintegrators are not called wave disintegrators, but simply disintegrators.
In Entrenchment sound files, there is a sound effect for the disintegrator but it is called "Chaos Bolt". This doesn't really give any clues as to how it works though.
^^ This. With phase missles being the only Vasari weapon that actually (for sure; pulse guns may or may not have a tangible ammo) requires materials for each round used, it makes sense that they'd be more expensive to use. That and having to house the munitions on-board would take up a lot of space.
I also theorize that having multiple kinds of weapons would make it more difficult for an enemy to adapt and find a total defense to protect itself. If the Advent or TEC found a way to block phase missles, where would the Vasari be if that's all they used?
Right, TEC were even working on it with the Kols experimental "Adaptive Forcefield".
where are they called that?
im not... i distinctly remember them being called Wave Disintegrators somewhere... can someone else confirm the correct name?
very true...
thats interesting... a shield that can block targets in Phase Space... imagine if you surrounded your GW with such a forcefield... ships jumping in would smash against the shield and be destroyed, much like a Stargate Iris or Shield...
I was simply using Evil-Tesla's exact example, it is not my own opinion...
but i do agree with your definitions of each particle... like i said, i was using his example
Game manual and I think that the tech tree descriptions refer to them as plasma pulse guns and plasma wave cannons.
Maybe phase missile technology is limited so that phase missiles can't remain in phase space long enough for them to do this.
Think abou it. How close does an energy shield "hug" the hull of a ship? lets say the shield is 10 meters (33 feet?) away.
How fast does a missile travel? on Earth military missiles can travel about Mach 7 which is about 7500 km per hour. (don't know the equivalent of miles and my numbers are likely off, but that isn't important).
In space a missile would need to around travel Mach 40 (approx. 44000 km per hour) due to greater distances. For the phase missile to phase in and then phase out at just the right time and for the right amount of time to go through the shields but not the ship the phase missile must go into phase space for a tiny tiny fraction of a second.
How long does it take for a phase missile to travel a few meters? not long.
This may explain the slow missiles of the assailants as the lower speed makes calculations easier. Even so . . .
Vasari must have very good computers. (I hope that I've made myself clear.)
I just went off on a wonderful tangent didn't I? (I must think about this game too much)
Rez, your idea about the phase shield like off of stargate is awesome! Great idea for a mod or x-pack.
Rez, the proper name for the Orky's anti-structure weapon is 'Disintegrator'. That is the name given by the Strings file. As for the Plasma Pulse Guns/Wave Cannons, it's in the manual (you have a free PDF version in the install directory of Sins, everyone does).
Pulse Beams, I think that they are more likely hard radiation bursts or some kind of energy beam, instead of a particle beam weapon.
Except when you conisder the vasari nanite tech, the missles could be constructed right inside the ships from matter that is present or from external matter that the nanites can collect. The vasari scavenging research supports that they have the technology to do this.
Phase missles, in all likelihood, are a very small phase drive mounted with a propulsion system and a very small warhead. Most of the damage from phase missles would come from the phase drive's explosion after it burned itself out. Whether or not is bypasses the shields, that drive is going boom.
What i really wonder is why the vasari don't use suicide ships, have them phase jump into an enemy ship and thus destroy them both. The karrastra destrucor doesn't have anything better to do...
okay, fair enough
fair enough again
i agree, id like for there to be something different, since TEC and Advent are so similar on so many counts...
i must say though the Pulse Gun and Pulse Beam are named so similarly... its rather misleading... a bit irritating for someone like me who likes to understand the science and technology behind the Sci-Fi...
By the way, do people generally agree with the explanation for AutoCannons?
I honestly thought they were Mass Drivers like railguns... then i remembered the Improved Cartrige Propellants upgrade, which made me think maybe the name is much more literal than most people think
So, whats the verdict? are they Mass Drivers or large caliber Automatic Cannons?
First off, I admit that that I had a spelling error,
Photons are particles of light, not protons.
I'm a physist (or will be) not an english major...lol
My point was with beams, that it could be more than just a beam of sub-atomic particles.
Or are you just trying to focus down on one explanation, instead of listing the possiblities??
About with plasma, How do we know what fire looks like in space? I know one thing, it does NOT look firey.
Did you look up putting a match in a microwave?
Again, maby I missed the point of what your trying to do, maby your trying to find one single explanation we can agree on, instead of listing possiblities.
Personal preference- Beams are plamsa, (just becouse Homeworld did it that way) and Plasma weapons (Advent style) are ball lightning weapons.
Lastly, about Auto cannons. You missed the possibility of Electro-Thermal Guns. Which are MUCH more realistic than rail or coil/guass guns.
I do NOT think that Autocannons are Coil/Gauss guns, becouse the KOL has a whole seperate ability for a Gauss gun, and the Gauss turrets very specificly have Gauss guns.
Autocannons are clearly differnt than Gauss guns.
Maby, to make your post clearer, and more palitible to my scientific senses, switch your "Fiction" and "Science" Explain the fiction first, THEN the science.
Becouse AS IS, your mixing quite a bit of fiction in with the science.
Or maby just make sure that you keep "Science" to be actull science.
Example is when (in the science section) you say that Plasma Weapons MUST use an advanced power source. Which is FAR from the truth. I am okay with you saying that, just put it in the fiction part.
see what I am saying?
I say both, the projectile is expelled via mass driver method (gauss or otherwise) and then the propellant kicks in to keep the round from losing speed (and therefore impact force) before it hits the target.
Edit: In space, it is true that there is very little to slow down a projectile, so my explanation may be unclear. The battles in sins take place in gravity wells, so the pull of the planet would be slowing down the round and pulling it off target. With extra speed the round would stay on target and be going faster when it hits.
i'm trying to focus on one explanation
yeah, trying to focus on one explanation that the majority of the community can agree on.
havent heard of those, ill have to look it up
good suggestion, its late here now so ill do it tomoz
Autocannons are just REALLY big automatic weapons. In space.
*double post
Don't forget the Gravity Warhead. while only a single ability, it plays a very large role in gameplay.
My theory: it is essentially a graviton dispersal weapon, gravitons being the particle which causes gravity
Fire, in space, is beautiful. It appears as water, rolling down a corridor or remaining in ball-like form when not near things that interfere with its motion.
Ah!
interesting.
My point being, just becouse it doesn't LOOK like fire, doesn't mean that it ISN'T fire.
(Also, I have seem quite a few sparks that could have been mistaken FOR fire. AKA- looks arn't everything)
Rezonator- Okay, I await your changes!
In a 1000+ years, the best we can do... no wonder the TEC is getting pwned in the sins story
I think that was the point.
Okay, time for the rest of it...
Photons: the standard particles that make up light. They have both electric and magnetic waves, thus they are referred to as electromagnetic radiation.
Super-Photons/Photinos: as with normal photons, these are a form of electromagnetic radiation, however they contain the mass of two protons in many cases. Upon collision with an object, it is very likely that the target atom will be destroyed and all chemical bonds to it will break. Most commonly this is created by a collision between a proton and a positron or sometimes during the evaporation of a black hole.
Higgs Boson/God Particle: The theoretical particle that gives all other particles mass. By firing a beam of HB's at a target, one could cause it to temporarily have a surge in gravity which could crush it into oblivion.
Graviton: the theoretical particle which is spread uniformly throughout the universe. By focusing the gravitons in an area into one location, one could create a gravity well which could function as both a shield and a weapon.
Muons/Nuons: the particles which constitute the Great Force. Over short distances, this is an extremely powerful force which holds protons together inside the nucleus of an atom.
Tachyon: A theoretical particle which travels faster than light. Creating one would cause interesting effects however.
Neutrino: one of the smallest particles, this particle has no mass, however it does contain quite a bit of energy.
Anti-Proton: With the same mass of a proton, this particle has a negative charge. Upon collision with its positive cousin, both particles are annihilated and convert into energy.
Positron: just like an electron, this is an extremely light particle which just like anti-protons, both are annihilated.
Anti-proton beams would be one of the nastiest weapons imaginable. For one, they have an electric charge, but above all else, they are antimatter. Upon collision with its target, one can assume that the target will be destroyed.
You missed Quarks.
And don't cheat by catigorizing!
back on topic..
Categorizing? Cheating? Huh?
Well, fine...
Quarks are the particles that make up most large particles... I'm not entirely sure which ones are in things, so don't yell down my throat for digging through the depths of my memory to a particle phys book I read a few years back...
These are the quarks that I remember...
Positive/Negative
Up/Down
Front/Back
Left/Right
Charm/Strange
Their names outside of the +/- ones are irrelevant and are that way because the guy who discovered them said that is how they are. There may be others, but I'm pretty sure that those are most of them...
Now, as for what has what quarks...
Protons: 2x Positive Quarks, 1x Negative Quark, 1 Charm Quark (or maybe something else... taking a wild guess here)
Electrons: 1x Negative Quark, 1x Strange Quark (once again, this one is out of thin air..)
Neutrons: 2x Positive Quarks, 2x Negative Quarks, 1x Charm Quark (guess), 1x Strange Quark (guess)
Upon combination, quarks endow the new particle with traits that depend on the type of quarks the particle contains.
Particles with quarks fall into two general categories:
Leptons: These have two quarks and tend to be small particles that move near the speed of light. Ie: electrons.
Hadrons: These have three or more quarks and are generally quite heavy. Ie: protons/neutrons
There are also things called Gluons which unless I am mistaken are the smallest known particle outside of singularities (things without mass or size like photons.
Fun Fact: If left alone, a neutron will decompose into a proton, electron, and antineutrino within about twelve minutes.
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