Most games with random quests are just one basic objective and then return to base (if that). If they had just taken a little more time to add in more random branching components to their quests they would increase the longevity and fun of their systems exponentially. Making a system with many different types of objectives that can be interlocked in many fashions would make things a lot more fun, and with not too much extra work.
The goal should just be to design small, functional miniquests with a lot of random components, and then combine these miniquests together for a larger quest. With enough quest components it should be possible to never have the same quest twice and even similar quests would have their own quirks as well as likely being chronologically spaced far apart.
Here's a sample for the system I envision:
Whether totally random, or based on game specific factors, the game decides that it is quest time. The program then evaluates how far the game is along, the strength of the player, the resources available to him and then decides on the quest length. In this case the program decides to create a long quest based on the players empire size and previously assigned quests. The quest isn't going to have you create an iron golem if there isn't an iron mine in the entire map. It also would be unlikely to do so if iron did exist, but was extremely hard to exist.
The game randomly decides that the focal point of the quest is a large monster. It spawns a large, powerful monster (from a pool of many). The game selects from many back stories on why this monster is here and presents the player with an immediate decision to make (not in a multiple choice menu, though this is an option too). The monster will ravage a small section of their land for a long period of time. They can either try to:
-Ignore it and take the damage
-Try and lure it away to someone/where else (could involve a subquest in itself to trick or charm the monster).
-Attack it with brute force (Monster intentionally made strong enough that this is usually not the best option).
-Follow the standard quest line.
A message is given starting the quest line with relevant back story. The objectives proceed in the following order.
Create a group of 100 Knights (The knights are chosen because the player has the resources to make them, but not trivially so. The game could have chosen 150 knights, or it could have chosen 50 crossbowman. The harder the goal, the more the internal difficulty variable for this entire quest line goes up. Adding the option for the player to "raise 100 knights or 200 crossbowman" will provide even more player choice. Player would be presented with the back story that these are men whose homes/livelihoods have been destroyed and are looking for vengeance, which would be one of many possible reasons for recruiting the men. Another quest might not even care how you get them, so long as acquire them through some means).
Slay a den of monsters using those units as part of your force (As before, this could be any group of monsters either in existence or spawned just for this quest. The monsters could even be substituted for killing a generic amount of X monsters or Y amount of another players forces. Lots of possible back stories here.)
Use monster loot to add to potion from previous subquest, or just an item that is somewhat rare. (As with all steps this could be removed to make the quest shorter and easier).
Use final potion to enable vulnerability of final quest mob. Once killed the player is rewarded by the stopping the destruction and also with loot drop proportional to the total difficulty of each step.
Though created from random parts this permutation has a lot of benefits normally only found in entirely hand crafted quests, such as:
The player is given choices right from the start and they aren't forced to do anything.
The player's game is spiced up by this random problem they have to consider, but with very clear ways to rid themselves of it (instead of feeling powerless and apathetic about a hurricane hitting their lands). They can solve this problem, and be rewarded. The problem is happening constantly and visibly. They will see the consequences of their actions or inaction.
The player is continually given some amount of choice even after they decide their initial approach to the problem.
Combining the removal of a punishment and an the gain of a monetary/magical reward is psychologically a great feeling for players who slay the beast. Quests of this length should always feel like an accomplishment.
Though each component on it's own is fairly generic and simple, the chance that that same player will encounter the same steps in the same order is very slim. Even if they or another player does get the same sequence of events, the random and situation specific factors of each component will likely make it feel very different, especially if entirely different back stories are chosen.
Of course some components might need to be more specifically linked to other components for them to be logical, but there's no reason why this system wouldn't work. It's beautiful because of how extremely moddable it is. There's nothing to stop anyone from adding a few new components or expanding on existing ones. Even an inexperienced modder or someone with little time could still contribute a quality component or back story addon to add more content to the game.
There's also nothing from stopping unique hand tailored quests from being incorporated alongside this system.
I also appreciate how if this system is done right that there will be such a huge variety of quests that we won't have players save/loading constantly trying to get that 1/5 of quest types they like. They'll be no guarantee they'll get anything close to a previous quest. Additionally, all the objectives of a quest don't have to be revealed at the get go so players won't really know every step until they get there. They can't just see that they don't like objective number 4 and load a saved game.
Some of you might be thinking this is far too complicated. It really isn't that hard to automate. From the coding perspective it just starts with a problem and a goal and works backwards from that goal to possible solutions, to possible ways of achieving those solutions and so on. The general look of the quest is shown below with alternate example options shown in parentheses.
Main Goals: 1 (Any number, by usually less than 1-3)
Difficulty: Moderate-High
Goal1 Type: Monster Spawn (Invasion, Delivery, Exploration)
Goal1 Subtype: Rampaging (docile, wandering, moving from point A to B )
Goal1 Solution1: Expose weak point & slay (recruit, slay, charm, banish, appease)
G1 S1 Mechanism: Use quest item (cast spell, use ability, use normal item)
G1 S1 Mechanism acquisition: combine items
G1 S1M 1: Loot off specific group of monsters (loot off random monsters, loot off unique monster, no special means)
G1S1M 1Subtask1 - Recruit units (locate information on targets, search for specific target, amass X magical creatures)
G1S1M 1 Subtask1 Subtype- Acquire X knights (recruit/create vs acquiring, knights vs other unit types, different amounts required)
G1 S1M 2: Previous quest reward (common item, rare item, spell)
I expect with the alpha so near there is already at least a very basic quest system in place (since I understood it to be a very important feature) so I'm curious to see how it compares to your vision.
I Admire your patience for working out all that knowing fully well that most people will no read all that and that it will not get implemented.
That being said, the system seems nice enough. I am curious myself how the quest system will work. I hope there will be a good amount of quests that remain fun over time. Even if the quests will not branch out they still may be interesting the fourth time, as long as you do not get the same quests over and over again. If there will be 100 quests and there are 10 per game then the chance of seeing a quest agaain will be small. Therefore it will remain interesting enough because you do not get the feeling that you are playing the same quest over and over again.
Then again, I hope the quest system is one that is never seen before, with several posible outcomes, possible solutions and numberous twists and turns along the way.
Well, it looks difficult to program, but if they found some way to get it in, it would be a LOAD of fun.....
Considering the alpha isn't out and we have very little info on the quest system I don't see why random quests couldn't be in the game.
Well as I said, it's not difficult to program. It's just time consuming making the amount of quest components and testing them. Still, you might spend two to three times more time on this version, but you'd have a 1000 fold more quests.
If they don't include such a system, I always could as a mod. Depending on how much of the game is opened up I could even have it completed before release.
I'd be so happy if something like this makes it into the game. Randomized multi-stage quests would add so much. Even if you only see a quest 1 in 10 games, after playing the game enough you know each quest inside out and they just become rote. Something like this, on the other hand, provided there are enough buildings blocks with enough variety, could really make the quests feel different every time - especially if the building blocks themselves incorporate some randomness. The functionality of this doesn't seem particularly difficult - but the story telling aspect seems incredibly hard. Meshing a bunch of randomized components together to create one coherent storyline sounds, well, almost impossible. How do you do that? Seems like you'd need a story generator capable of analyzing the components and creative a contextual story for it.
So while I'm hopeful Stardock will do something cool and innovative regarding quests, I'm not very hopeful that it will be quite as thorough as this. If they do manage something like this, on the other hand, than that will be a bigger achievement than most games themselves!
I certainly like the idea. If I'm understanding you correctly, would it be possible in this model to for instance switch the "slay the monsters in the den to get the vulnerability potion" with "negotiate with kingdom X who has the information you need to create the potion?" And to complicate it even more, would it be possible to add multiple parts involving you gathering the ingredients to create this potion?
Savage, the whole point of this system is that it can be added onto forever and that you could essentially exchange any of the parts for a different idea. So yes to everything you mentioned. The quests can be of any length or difficulty and there's not much it can't do.
Being a non-coder and an irrationally demanding computer user, I pretty much expected quests to work along the lines Tourresh suggests and think that an extended beta schedule could help make this part of the game 'highly sophisticated.' I have particular hopes about a 'branching, randomized' quest system being able to work together with the diplomacy UI to make that part of the game more interesting than any TBS I know of has managed so far.
The real deal is replayability, though. As pigeon notes, even if a particular canned quest only appears in 1 in 10 games, that means after 20 or 30 games it will be familiar, and eventually become dull, gruntwork clicking you have to get through if you want to complete/win whatever task/prize is at hand.
I agree with, well, most of the people on this thread, really: as long as the technical issues are resolved, I would love to see this in the game, although the issue of "imporper" or too difficult quests might have alarmed me if I had an unrealistically low opinion if the devs.
Oh, one thing I'd like about quests: one thing I hated about the quests in SoaSE is that they were often unreasonable or just entirely undesirable. But if you didn't do it anyway, you were penalized. I'd much rather have the option to accept quests - if you do not accept the quest then it just goes away. If you do accept a quest, then I would accept a penalty for failing, if appropriate. I might not mind the occasional quest forcing itself upon you, but in general the ability to choose which quests to attempt is desirable.
I agree. Of course, quests that penalize you if you fail should be "flagged" as such before you do them, so you know what you're getting into.
The only penalty for failing a quest I support is the loss of any time or resources you already put into them. It wouldn't really make any sense for someone to be punishing you, the Lord of the Land.
The example I provided kind of has built in punishment, but no more than any random event. Any negative aspects like that would have to be looked at very carefully.
Well, if the quest is something like curing a crop blight or pacifying the Swamp Lord, then I could see not succeeding causing a few problems. Not so much "punishment" as consequence of faliure.
I've never played SoaSE, so I have no idea what pigeon means by being 'forced' into a quest. My (wildly ambitious?) notion has been that a quest is an opportunity (problem) with associated risks. Some risks might or might not be connected to ignoring the opportunity (problem), others are part of the quest itself.
The idea of a generic penalty for ignoring a quest seems just silly, but if the quest was curing a crop blight, obviously you should suffer reduced food production if you ignore the quest. Having "consequences" at least implies that the events have plausible connections to the back story and/or the flow (event log) of a given game. Having "penalties" for turning down a quest sounds like a video game, ick-poo.
It will be great to look into the quest system that Stardock is creating and eventually enhancing it with more random stuff or creating something new. I see some potential in the ideas of the topic starter. Biggest issue will be a way to balance the stuff so it generates quests that 'feel' right. At the other hand it can generate some really interesting quest's that no one had thought of before.
To create a story around those random quest's will be a tricky. It will look like a lot of the Galciv 2 thing that would generate stories from the played games.
I guess I wouldn't call that forced. It sounds like an event with consequences; you do the requested deed and gain favor with the other faction, or you decline and lose favor with them. (Although that might feel 'too gamy' to me if I had no ability to initiate something similar on my side, e.g. the way GC2 AIs can threaten you about having ships where they don't like them but human players don't have a way to do that.)
Maybe the 'forced' part is really just a sublimated complaint that the quests are dull and repetitive instead of built from a strong random quest generator that knows how to read your game's event log?
It'd be cool if the quest system could support a LOTR type scenario. This wouldn't be your normal 4x map, but more of a specialized scenario mod. You've got a handful of small, but potent, heroes in a preset world and they need to complete some quest(s) to win.
To accomodate this the AI would have to be built such that you could rachet down the normal conquest mode and rachet up the importance of killing specific units or holding/guarding specific areas of the map.
Oh? Well or one there are the types of quests that could be tied to events, like if a plague crops up and you are offered a quest to combat it; you could refuse it and let the plague play out, or accept it and invest the resources and attention required to effectively stop it - including carrying out whatever side missions that might be necessary. This isn't really a punishment, because the event happened anyways so the quest is just one (of hopefully many) opportunity to combat the event.
But then, there is a whole other kind of quest. If a Dragon comes to you and demands that you do something, I could see a penalty if you refuse - or even if you fail. I wouldn't want to deal with an angry dragon, not in Elemental anyway. Like I said, there should only be punishments if appropriate, not something arbitrary. For example, you are approached by a wanderer who tells you that there is a powerful creature dwelling in ancient ruins nearby, which contain ancient artifacts and knowledge. If you attempt but fail to destroy the monster, it will emerge from the ruins and seek revenge. Things like that.
No, it was ridiculous. Often, 5 minutes into the game you'd be ordered to go destroy 15 of, say, orange player's structures within 15 minutes or the quest giver (another player) will be mad at you. Only problem is, you're playing on a large map and orange player is 15 minutes away from you - or you don't even know where orange player is - or you're allied with orange player... The quests in SoaSE are really just periodic demands from other players, even your best allies. And if you don't submit to these demands they start hating you. They weren't really quests, they were demands. They were shoved down your throat, and they were boring and dull and repetitive.
Well, I'm not sure how the yes and no parts work out, but it sounds very yucky, something Elemental should avoid like the plague. I'd rather see no quests than something that manages to be both powerfully annoying and thoroughly dull.
I meant pigeon starting out with a "No" when I strongly suspect that he and I agree.
Re the additional Sins detail, that sounds like yet another horrible abuse of language in the UI. If you have no choice but to accept a parameter, you're under a geis, not on a quest. Quests move characters through stories, geasa provide the bumps and tumbles that can help make a story more interesting.
I'm hoping quest/event creation is helped by with a tool.
I'm thinking something in the lines of what civ2 event editor gave, but obviously more powerful.
We can determine what triggers a text box, be it hitting a certain square, killing a certain unit, a certain turn number etc.
Can provide text boxes with selectable responses.
Be able to specificy outcomes of those responses, reactions will be finite. Such as something simple as adding gold/essence or adding an item or even removing an item/gold/essence. Also be able to spawn new triggers, especially if one wants to make a story based quest.
So in the vein of, perhaps as I think while typing, RPG Maker/Civ 2, where we can end up with a string of triggers and effects.
Sure this can be done manually but I hope a tool allows to do this. I want lots of tools, I don't think I'm asking too much to have a tool to allow, at the very least, some basic method of quest/event creation.
Obviously the ones that want to do insane stuff will still be able to do it, manually.
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