In my mind, the fun of Elemental resides in the fact that you’re not just trying to conquer some fantasy world but the world itself is designed to be so organic and unique from game to game.
A lot of the difference between games is a result of things like a tech tree that has different techs in it, a huge library of special content that is integrated into map generation randomly each game, quests, integrated community content, and the divergent paths to victory.
Now, as some of you know, Stardock’s bread and butter isn’t from game development. Our desktop software and enterprise software have always given us the luxury of being able to take as long as we want to develop our games as well as take “risks” on the way we release our games (no copy protection for instance – which, in case people are wondering, the retail version of Elemental will not have copy protection).
And that brings me to a question I wanted to pose to you folks. Would you be interested in us extending the beta? Since anyone can join betas by pre-ordering, we could try something that really hasn’t been done before as far as I know – make the beta experience something truly outstanding unto itself.
Right now, the schedule is this:
This is pretty much the same schedule we’ve been doing since Galactic Civilizations I back in 2003.
But imagine this kind of beta instead:
So what would be the point of this? The point would be to make it a lot more fun to develop the game with the beta testers. Rather than have v1.0 come out in February and then have v1.1 in say April and so on, we simply keep working on the game with the beta testers.
Then, when we release the game, it’s got a ton more stuff.
Here are some thoughts that come to mind:
How many players should/can we allow in a game? 8? 12? 32?
How sophisticated can we make dungeons in the game?
How sophisticated can we make quests in the game?
How sophisticated can we make tactical battles in the game?
How big of a scope can we give the campaign?
We don’t have the financial pressure to release the game in February and because of that, we have an opportunity to try something we’ve not done that we think might be really special and that is vastly increase the contribution of the beta players into the game than what we’ve done before.
The end result would, I think, be a game that could very well be a classic. A year’s worth of player input before it was released to the general public.
Tell us what you think.
Hmm, not to sound needy, but does this mean that we will see the beta this month? I thought that whole demi-god fiasco had pushed us into september, but the post says august... Is that then just the Alpha, or is thier still hope?
Hi,
I'm not going to read the whole thread, but I'm pretty sure there are others here who share my opinion.
I haven't (and am not planning to because paying in dollars is expensive, and I want to wait for specials in my native currency) pre-ordered, so I won't be participating in the Beta. That said, I would far rather wait even a couple of months for v1.0, and have it as polished and bug free has humanly possible, than have to pay a couple hundred bucks for the game, and then have to cap my 2GB ADSL account a month later to download updates... especially when these updates fix bugs that should have been fixed in the original release.
Delay the release as long as you possibly can, as long as this delay is spent TESTING, TESTING, TESTING, to ensure we get something as stable as we can possibly get!
CheersGraham
I would support the extended beta to get a superior product, especially (as i suspect is the case) the input fom the beta players is valued and considered.
As someone who's preordered, I would wholeheartedly support an extended beta.
I participated in the Demigod beta and I know you guys value the input of your beta-testers; in this day and age where betas usually exist soleley to bugtest, it means a lot that you guys actually take on board new suggestions.
The way it looks right now is alpha in August (this week maybe), and beta in September.
I'll toss in another yes. (YES!) But I'll be disappointed if Elemental isn't a classic.
Perhaps they might just skip alpha and go straight to beta this month.
If you can afford it, it's brilliant. Here's why: Free QA from beta testers, when the NDA is lifted you get player buzz that nets additional pre-orders, pre-orders net more installs of Impulse which equals sales of other products, and prehaps most important of all Gamespot can't review the game until it's is a polished gem! You may be the smartest guy in the biz.
I am sure this post is going to get lost somewhere among the mess of responses to this question but just had to weigh in on this a little bit. It is very rare that I find a game that I am as interested in as I am for Elemental so I want to see this become the best game possible. It seems like by doing a long beta you will be relying heavily on community input. That has potential to be great but remember that Master of Orion 3 did something similar to that and in the end that didn't work out too well for them.
I think the big thing with the beta is not just how long it is but who you give the beta to. It is often the most hardcore gamers/modders that try to get in on those beta programs which is nice because they are going to push the game to its limits. The problem is that they often prefer a more complex game than the average or casual gamer. I think you would be much better served if you looked for the serious gamer to test the limits of the game, find issues and help make the modding work while allowing a lot of the gameplay input to come from the more casual gamer. Not to say the game should be over simplified either. I guess just realize that who you gather your information from is probably more important than how much of it you have.
More like changing publishers 3 times, with 3 different visions for the game, and a way overambitious design idea didn't work well for them
That's more or less my impression as well. I lurked on the MoO3 boards for the forever-time it took them to move through those three publishers and eventually ship a 'product.' What I got right after RTM didn't seem at all like a masses-hate-complexity version of 'the game' I'd been expecting. It seemed much more like a crippled cross-breed of a few entirely different games that marketing twits had dressed up in some very sheer MoO drag.
So very true.
He has a fair point. Vanguard also suffered from listening too much to a community that was too slanted in one direction.
Player feedback is invaluable in the beta. But designers have to design, not just do what the community wants. Sometimes for the good of the game, you have to say "no, you're wrong" to your fans. It's a hard thing to do correctly. If they're up to it (and I really believe Brad is), this could really be something special.
Hadberz - They're doing the alpha, there's another dev journal about invites going out today.
Quoting Tyrion2001:
Don't worry about that, anyone who pre-orders is automatically in the beta. There really is no "getting in" in Stardock betas. There will be plenty of people like myself who are not the hardcore player. Stardock listens very well to all the players during the betas.
Hi, I live in the UK and would like to help with the beta test, however i would also like the manual when the game comes out but the delivery chare on that is a killer. Is there a European/UK distributor that I can pre-order with and have access to the Beta?
If you will be doing this, I'll pre order straight away, been wanting a good kingdom running sim for years
I've been lurking on the journals here for quite some time, but it's rather daunting trying to get in on posting feedback to them given how many people are here and how any idea I come up with seems to either already have been presented by another person, or someone has already posted an even better idea than what I was going to suggest.
That said, I want to throw in my vote with the "extend the beta!" folks. This is the game I am by far more excited about than any other upcoming strategy title. I am hugely excited about the design ideas behind Elemental, and the more time spent honing the game, the better! I already preordered months ago, eager to get involved with the beta testing and the chance to hopefully help shape this game into an even better one than it would otherwise be.
Sure, I'm impatient for a fully released final edition, but extending the beta periods will likely result in an even stronger product in the end.
Extended development time seems to work for Blizzard. If Stardock can afford to push back the release date, which they stated they can, then I see no reason not to take a little bit longer to make a perfect game.
Pushing the date back gets my vote.
Get out of my cave travitar! .....
that was funny
I thought there was plenty of room in that cave. Fortunatly I found another cave not too far from that one. Bit damp, but it'll do.
In general, I think the approach should be to have polished functionality over non-polished. If you're targeting a date, reduce scope, becuase you will pay for poor quality eventually: either with expensive patches, or with lost sales.
The date seems fairly flexible at this point. Frogboy going from Winter 2010 to Fall 2010, given it's been in development for 2 years already basically just added 20% to the schedule, which is within the usual estimate range for software. Taking 3 years instead of 2.5 years in return for reallly good reviews, and large, stable beta community who will sing your praises, probably makes financial sense.
I'm all for Stardock making lots of money on Elemental: then they can fund GalCiv3...
Brad et al,
OK, yet again, I'm way late to the discussion.
FWIW - My general view (as a software architect/developer for the last 15 years) is that you give the developers most of the time they want. In my world, it always seems to be a game (no pun intended) of diminishing returns. I'd use all the time (and more) to make something better if allowed. The question usually is, what are the users/gamers getting for the added effort?
If you feel forum/beta feedback will dramatically improve the game-play experience then go for it...this is something that I usually don't have the luxury of with ordering, inventory, and provision system design/development.
As somebody that has already pre-ordered the game, I don't have a big problem with a longer development cycle(s) especially if I see/hear that modding and python support become more robust during the cycles.
All just my opinion of course. Keep up the great work!
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