Ahoy folks! I had a post up recently asking for opinions on the value of each citadel upgrade; the responses mostly agreed on the same things:
Looking at the citadel upgrades, I can see the developers tried to give us a lot of options, but unfortunately, a number of them are generally considered not worth it. I look at the citadel upgrades and say, heck, if they're going to put all this stuff in, it ought to all be things a good player would consider buying in the course of any game. You should look at the citadel menu, and have a dilemma--"What is the best thing to buy right now? These are all good..."--rather than knowing that some of the upgrades--in fact, the majority of them--just aren't worth your time.
Remember, the citadel upgrades are supposed to be viable alternatives to purchasing equipment. In fact, they'll have to be a bit stronger, because they require an individual to forego strengthening themselves in lieu of strengthening their team, and most players struggle to achieve that level of altruism. If a player is generous enough to spend money on the team instead of himself, he should really feel like he made a difference. This will make it that much easier to convince newer players, who tend to neglect the citadel, that working with your team can be rewarding.
Therefore, I propose we start looking at simple ways we could change the citadel upgrade menu, so that more of its upgrades offer high value to the player. Simply put, if most of the options on the citadel aren't worth buying, they shouldn't be options. If the objective of the citadel menu is to offer a diversity of options to invest your hard-earned money in, all options should be of roughly equal value, the difference between them determined only by personal preference or situation-specific stratagem. It doesn't make sense to have some upgrades be "usually a bad idea"; in terms of diversity, being offered ten options, seven of which you would never consider, is just as bad as being offered only three. Auxiliary to this is the fact that there are several upgrade tracks in which only the first upgrade is agreed to be viable--if this is the case, why bother with a track? It ought to be worth the heavy investment to max out a track on the citadel, for every track.
I'll start with some simple brainstorming, to show you what I'm thinking of:
As for some new upgrades:
In any case, these are just for brainstorming purposes. Any thoughts, comments, ideas, etc. you care to contribute will be much appreciated. Thanks!
Those are all very good ideeas.
As long as we are talking about new upgrades, how about one called "The Eye of God" (as opposed to the finger of god). This upgrade will completely remove the fog of war. I would sure love to spend my gold on one of those.
Also, I think an interesting citadel upgrade would be a single button that rebuilds the last tower that was destroyed. Each time a player clicks on it, it becomes more expensive, so that a team cannot constantly rebuild their towers. Eventually it would be so expensive that no one could afford it.
Angels are a problem, because they mostly suck. But following your ideea of upgrading individual reinforcements, maybe the angels can do with a bit of extra movement speed and attack damage. I always seem to think that they are in slow motion or something. They are about as lethal as a mosquito.....and as annoying as one.
And about that Death Penalty upgrade. Well, I have to disagree here. Yes, usually, it's just a waste of hard earned cash. However it does have it's purposes in some occasions. I was once in a game where we were getting beaten by the opposing team. I had lots of money at my disposal since I was trying to kill as many giants before they got to our base, and managed to kill a few DGs in the process. I went to the citadel, i got catas and giants, and all the graveyard upgrades, plus the final reinforcement attack and armor upgrade. At one point, we spent so little time dead that we were pushing back the enemy DG's that had a 5+ level lead on us, actually reaching their base and taking out a few of their towers. Sadly, we still got beaten, but the game lasted an hour. Had I not gotten those graveyard upgrades, I think we would have lost after 40 minutes.
very nice compilation... particularly like the ideas for new upgrades. in fact i also did a bit of thinking a while back for something like this to expand the grunt upgrades a bit. check it out (if u haven't seen it already)
Increase Game Depth: Citadel Minion Expansion (with pics)
Some cool ideas.
In another thread someone suggested that the "Death Penalty" reduction upgrade also decreases the amount of gold the enemy gets when killing one of your team, which I thought is a great idea, right now it's really useless (unless someone changes the custom setting to draconic ^^)
Tower upgrades should really cost less, if each upgrade would cost the same as the first one it would actually be worth getting them. Same with the currency upgrade, they should be 1800 each and give+4gold each, right now first ugprade costs 1800 and gives+4 and second one costs almost twice as much and gives only half the gold, which is stupid.
Trebuchet upgrade cost should change depending on the map, on cataract there is only 1 fortress, which means trebuchets are not worth it on the map for 3200, while you get 5 of them for the same price on other maps.
Finger of God cooldown should be decreased, right now it feels like it only fires once every 60 seconds or something.
A good read, Alien--I especially liked the idea of moving reinforcement upgrades to their own tab--they're still usually the most important upgrade.
In regards to wraid's humorous anecdote about death penalty, I now stand corrected in death penalty being useless; however, I still can't honestly say I can support an upgrade that is only useful when your base is overrun and you're so many levels behind the enemy that feeding them doesn't even matter any more. It would be more useful to have an upgrade that reduced how much gold/xp your opponents got per kill, and that would still be lame.
the idea for reduced gold/EXP gained by enemy who kill u is in this thread:
New Favor Item: Death's Mirror
All good commentary, and I totally forgot that little quirk of the trebuchet upgrade.
And yes, the FoG only fires once every sixty seconds--it's basically duct-taping a Heaven's Wrath to your citadel. Or, alternatively, Heaven's Wrath is a portable Finger of God...
However, when you consider that it pretty much screws a single wave of reinforcements every time it fires, you might have trouble if it fired any faster. If it fired 20 seconds faster, it would coincide with minion respawns, which basically means your opponent permanently gets 1 less group of reinforcements per wave, which is totally uncool.
It's not only usefull when your base is overrun. That is just when I realised that the death penalty wasn't a waste of money. Think about it. Less time being dead = more time being alive = more creep farming = more kills = more gold income = more "holding the line". That would be something critical in the early game, I think, since dieing early on can be a bit punishing. If you can quickly get back to the fighting after you are killed, then you can start your farming sooner, and not be so heavily punished for making a few stupid mistakes.
On the downside...if a player truly sucks, then a decreased death time means that he will be feeding the enemy more often. And that sucks more than having the computer AI take over a damn rage quitter.
Of course, I am not suggesting that DP is a critical upgrade. Hey, if you can get currency, get it, if you can get reinforcement upgrades, get them. Just keep in mind, that sometimes...sitting on your ass waiting for an annoyingly long respawn time can be better spent creep farming or tower bashing.
I suppose I can concede that it can be useful if you're already losing, but the fact is, if you're playing as well as you can, your goal should be to never die at all, not be hurt as little as possible when you do. Money spent mitigating the damage caused by dying could be better spent making you less likely to die--this pushes your time alive to its absolute maximum, while also prevents the enemy from gaining money or experience. The best way to reduce the sting of death is not in treating the symptoms, but in preventing it.
Remember, Sun Tzu say, "The true champion is not one who weathers his foe's assault, and seeks victory through bravery and valor... the true champion is one who puts himself beyond the possibility of defeat, then awaits the opportunity to claim victory."
True that. Well I guess you were right. It only is usefull when you are being overrun .
I AGREE. With everything you said.
Trebs need a big buff, like really big. They should be an upgarde the defenive team can get to keep the eney dg's off, and turn the tide around. Also they should only target DG's unless they have big aoe ofc.
an idea for Trebs is for the cost to be dependent on the actual map, say a base 1800 gold and an extra 500 gold for every fortress standing at the time of purchase. either that or make the trebs a seperate building which apears (like in brothers) beside the Citadel and not on top of the fortresses (the price would be fixed then)
changing topic to the Finger of God an idea would be an upgrade to the original purchase to decrease the cool down on it by say 15 secs. originaly purchase is 6000 gold so an upgraded 15 sec reduction would probaly be around 3600 gold.
I would make the 15 second reduction just cost another 6k gold as it would be like having a second finger of god.
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