Just a quick question... are there any girls here? I see girly icons but I'm still unsure. D:
*Tries to get back on topic*
Sooo who's female then?? Edit the first post and insert all the womens nicknames so we know
I've discarded nesrie as a campaigning feminist. Or you got the same issue as me. You save up anger and unleash it all at once. REALLY bad habit I tell ya
Nesrie, I am one of the people you mentioned who "seem to think it's not okay for women to identify themselves as women while playing games or even on boards," however, you have misinterpreted my meaning. I am not a woman and therefore have no perception of how annoying or outraging it might be to be referred to by the incorrect pronoun, but I don't believe that the act of insisting on accuracy, in itself, is what is objectionable. What is objectionable is more of a broad attitude, something you say you encounter rarely but based on my experience is more common than you believe.
The central aspect of the objectionable attitude is the expectation special treatment, specifically on the basis of their gender. Typically girls with this attitude manage to forge large circles in which they are the absolute center of attention. The males go out of their way to impress her, agree with her, make exceptions for her, etc, all for the ultimiate goal of securing her favor and trying to "make something happen." This is irrational behavior on the male's part, but downright reprehensible on the female's part. In 99% of cases the girl has no intention of letting anything like that happen, and is just using her gender to procure this special treatment. This can take the form of getting teammates to overlook blatant gameplay errors during a a team performance analysis (for the sake of not hurting her feelings), or getting herself onto teams she doesn't deserve to be on based on merit alone.
Now not all girls are this way, and the ones that aren't are fine. During my entire time playing Guild Wars PvP (3+ years), the best monk parnter I ever had was female (there are typically 2 monks on an 8-person team, monk teamwork and synergy is very important). She made no secret of her gender but did not try to use it to secure special treatment, in fact she insisted on not being treated differently, and held the exact same disdain for the aforementioned objectionable attitude that I do. In fact, I think its fairly accurate to say that I was introduced to and convinced of the views I hold now, by her. We ended up playing together for about a year, and we were fucking awesome.
All that I expect is that no person get special treatment because of some trait that is completely irrelvent to what they are supposed to be graded on. For example, I know of many teams in Guild Wars which took in female members solely because some of their members had become infatuated by them, and subsequently the team began to stink because the female players were bad, but the male members made excuses for them. No male member would receive such treatment, he would be promptly cut like he deserved to be. I am NOT saying that all girls are bad (see my example in the last paragraph), what I am saying is that girls = people, and should be treated as such.
I hope this clears things up.
Yep, I got a better picture though I must say, when I was younger, and some 40 old pervert tried to get dirty with me on Neverwinter Nights, this is not the Bioware game but the one that was free for AOL members back when you paid by the hour for internet, I guess I could have decided then that all guys who play games are perverts and therefore demand no one ever tell me their age or their sex. You know just blanket the entire opposite sex as a group for me to dismiss. Or maybe during Gemstone III, that was an early text based MMORPG for the kids on this board, and decided that 30 year old men should be carefully weeded out too. Everquest, I saw guilds bring in members because the were girlfriends AND boyfriends and sisters AND brothers, husbands AND wives, equal opportunity unfair advantages there. Sounds like you want to blame the woman more instead of the dumbass horny guys who invited her in in the first place. I would apply blame equally to both parties in that one but then again, it's easier to blame the woman and treat the guys as victims.
As for campaigning feminist, I don't think it's asking too much to be able to check out gaming forums and not see bunch men and their female enablers bashing women on the daily basis, not weekly, not semi-weekly, not monthly... DAILY. If that makes me a feminist, so be it. In that case, I'll be happy to take the title.
I for one do not see why you shoudln't be happy to be a feminist. In my opinion, the world needs more feminists. A lot more. I also agree with SoFFacet that these "guilt-trip" women are as annoying as the guys who enable them, including Campeighner (who is generally much..... less unreasonable than this).
The world needs exactly 0 feminists. Exactly the same amount than needed chauvinistics (I think thats the proper word, sorry if it isn't, just think the opposite of feminism). Where is equalitarism when you need it?
Well, since there are a ton of cheuvenists (that we can't really do anything about- it's not like you can just kill them), you would need a ton of feminists to cancel them out.
Wrong. What you need to do is to reduce the number of chauvinists. No need to kill them, they will die when they are old enough. Just make sure that the new generations aren't like them.
And, how exactly would you intend to do that? People usually inherit their parents' ethics.
False, Ethics are society driven idioms.
Gender falacies or fanatism ensue.
Meaning that if the monkey is trained to draw up an identity from two simple choices, it will. Insert intelligence & reasoning in the process, you get extremism & emotional reactions to contrast by again, multiple choices.
Decent enough long-range goal, but we might need a much larger number of feminists than are currently fighting the good fight to thoroughly stamp out male chauvinism (the misogynist form is just a subset of that fancy name for bigotry). Especially if you're thinking globally, and not just about females in the US, EU, and British Commonwealth.
I don't know what sort of definition you are using for feminism, but you might want to find another one. Feminism is basically discourse with the intention of providing equal rights and legal protection for women. Who here thinks women should NOT have equal rights or legal protection? Feminism is not the half baked ESRB allowing large amounts of violence in games but freaking out if there is any sexuality at all. It's not making trying to make selling mature and adult games to minors a felony either. I mean it must be nice to go through life just throwing around labels, incorrectly, to conveniently dismiss someone's point of view and ignore said content. Being harrassed in games, sneaking around trying to hide your gender, being unable to go to some gaming boards without be assaulted by the open degradation of women and girls, being unable to participate in a contest based on sex... these things happen because the gaming community, my fellow gamers, allow it too and sanction that kind of behavior.
Hell, I am not asking for censorship here, I am just appauled that this community gathers around and applauds behavior that is degrading to women as not only acceptable but something to be encouraged.
If wanting to go to a gaming community to enjoy information, discourse, ideas, strategy, previews, reviews, and sharing my passion for gaming in general all while hoping to run into minimal sexism makes me an extremist, so be it.
You have to admit though that they (whoever did) chose the wrong word for it. If feminists advocate equal rights then why not just call them equalists or something
You are probably talking to the wrong people here. Most gamers (or anyone for that matter) that is willing to discuss this topic are all for equal rights. The men that actually DO degrade women you won't find posting here. They are in bars harrassing women
Nowadays, (or at least in my experience) every self-professed feminist I've met or seen or heard of has been an extremist, women-are-always-right, there's-no-mental-difference-betweeen-male-and-female, we're-always-the-victim type. And frankly, I just find that to be a less than realistic view.
Then they don't deserve to be called feminists. Those people would best be described as "victemists", although I called them "self-anomalizers" somewhere above.
How about this. When I am no longer expected to be one of the people that die so that women and children can escape from a sinking ship or burning building, then I'll go ahead and say that things are starting to equalize. Until that point, anyone going around telling me that because I'm a man I'm part of some secret plot to use society-established gender roles to further some agenda of fascist oppression can go set themselves on fire.
Equality comes from giving rights and privileges AND taking them away. Something to keep in mind.
Society decides roles, not individuals.
(don flak jacket+9)
They don't save people depending on gender/age anymore. I'm waiting.....
I'm not talking about people being saved based on it, i'm talking about the expectation. It's there, strong and thriving. A man will always be expected to give his life for a women when the choice is between the two.
And a man would not be expected to give his life for another man?
You're evading the point, but I'll bite.
More factors come into play here... i'll put it like this.
Characteristic of "Child" - trumps all
Characteristic of "Woman" - trumps man
(note that here it becomes infinitely more complex, i'm just putting a few examples)
Characteristic of "Young" - trumps old
Characteristic of "Healthy" - trumps near-death
Characteristic of "Easy" - trumps difficult
Characteristic of "Numbers" - Dependent on variables, often trumps lesser number when without variables.
Again, these are for expectations and do not necessarily reflect actual decisions made in given true-life examples, as situations are rarely so simple and humans remain unpredictable. These expectations, however, still permeate basic human understanding and mindsets and, in my opinion, are often what goes through a given person's head in a similar situation.
I have certainly run into my fair share of extreme feminists that really defy rational arguments, but they are no different than any other extreme group like people extreme about religion, or politics or any other ideal. I would not group all feminists into one category just because some of the more verbal and overbearing individuals who claim that label left a sour taste in my mouth anymore than I would throw any other group into one neat category to dismiss. Also, I am not old enough to been a part of the burn your bra generation, but I am not so young that I take what they did for granted. I've got opportunities that my grandmother never had, and it took extreme actions to get this far. According to some, I guess I am a feminist since I dared open my mouth on this forum, and there isn't anything I can do to change their mind. They want a reason to overlook what I say, they'll find one.
As for the women and children first bit, that's instinct. There are no laws that said women and children have to be saved first, that's what happens because as a species, that's our initial gut reaction. I am certain my dad would have laid down his life to save me and my sisters and my mother if he had to. I am certain my mother would have died to save us children too. It's just part of what we are, but I promise you, if we ever wind up in a lifeboat in the middle of the ocean and it tips over and there is one life jacket, feel free to have mine. I hope that makes you feel better. If i am ever in a similar situation, I hope I have the courage to give a child a chance in my stead, but I can't promise that. I am only human, and words are very different from the moment action is required.
Sees walls of text and people argueing...wasnt this post meant for Blue to find out if other girls were here?
Nesrie that was a fair post, save for one, tiny part that I bet you didn't even think about when you wrote it.
"I hope that makes you feel better".
I love how unnecessary this little sentence is, since your argument without this statement is quite reasonable.
With this single sentence you prove me right and everything you say as hypocritical and based on a false perception of yourself.
I WIN TEH INTERNETZ!!
Also, the reason we got off-topic was obviously because the question "are there any girls here?" was not typed in all caps and filled with spelling errors.
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