The citadel upgrades are meant to be viable alternative to demigod development. However, as of right now they are way too weak because they either do not scale properly, or are too expensive for what they accomplish. Here are my suggestions for improvement, along with a few new ideas.
Overall Change: For each rank invested in buildings, the reward the enemy demigods get by destroying it goes up by 40g. For instance, if you have fortified structure rank 2, enchanted towers rank 1, and building firepower rank 1, a total of 4 ranks makes that 40%, and the bonus goes up from 300g per building to 460g per building. This means that the stronger the building is, the more rewarding it is to destroy it.
Fortified Structure:
Rank 1: +10% health, +10hp per second - 800g
Rank 2: +25% health, +25hp per second - 1600g
Rank 3: +40% health, +40hp per second - 2400g
Rank 4: +55% health, +55hp per second - 3200g
Reasoning: The current hp/sec values are 10, 15, 20, 25 which definitely are not good enough. Also make the price cheaper to make the upgrades more attractive.
Building Firepower:
Rank 1: Buildings gain 15% damage and 2 range - 1000g
Rank 2: Buildings gain 35% damage and 3 range - 2000g
Rank 3: Builduings gain 60% damage and 4 range - 3000g
Rank 4: Buildings gain 90% damage and 5 range - 4000g
Reasoning: removed the splash damage component because it's not really useful, and replaced it with range which should help with the area of control that towers/forts provide.
Enchanted Towers: *NEW*
Rank 1: Building attacks slow the enemy movement and attack speed by 5% for 3 seconds - 1500g
Rank 2: Building attacks slow the enemy movement and attack speed by 11% for 3.5 seconds - 2300g
Rank 3: Building attacks slow the enemy movement and attack speed by 18% for 4 seconds - 3200g
Rank 4: Building attacks slow the enemy movement and attack speed by 25% for 5 seconds - 4300g
Reasoning: Add more utility to towers and make them harder to destroy. Combined with the previous two upgrades, the buildings should scale with demigods if they are invested in.
Currency:
Rank 1: Increases gold income of the team by 4 gold per second - 1800g (2.5 minutes)
Rank 2: Increases the gold income of the team by 9 gold per second - 2700g (3 minutes)
Rank 3: Increases the gold income of the team by 15 gold per second - 3600g (3.3 minutes)
Reasoning: Made rank 2 and rank 3 more effective because otherwise they are not really worth the gold investment, since the income bonus is not additive. The minutes in parantheses indicate the number of time it takes for the upgrade to pay for itself for a team of 3. Formula: (cost / additional gold income) / number of teammates
Blacksmith:
Rank 1: Reinforcements gain 20% damage, 15% health, and 20% armor - 1500g
Rank 2: Reinforcements gain 40% damage, 30% health, and 40% armor - 2400g
Rank 3: Reinforcements gain 60% damage, 45% health, and 60% armor - 3400g
Rank 4: Reinforcements gain 80% damage, 60% health, and 80% armor - 4500g
Rank 5: Reinforcements gain 100% damage, 80% health, and 100% armor - 5600g
Reasoning: Combined Blacksmith and Armory categories into one category, since they seem to have the same purpose (making creeps stronger). The upgrade is sufficiently powerful now so that people don't have to wait until giants to buy it.
Experience: renamed to "Introspection"
Rank 1: Experience earned by demigods increased by 10%, and gold earned by demigods when killing creeps is increased by 4% - 1200g
Rank 2: Experience earned by demigods increased by 20%, and gold earned by demigods when killing creeps is increased by 8% - 2000g
Rank 3: Experience earned by demigods increased by 30%, and gold earned by demigods when killing creeps is increased by 12% - 3000g
Rank 4: Removed.
Reasoning: Made it a little bit cheaper. Removed rank 4 since by the time you might want to buy it, you're probably already close to level 20. Added the gold element so that it pays for itself over time, albeit not completely.
Graveyard: changed
Rank 1: Death penalty reduced by 10%, gold and experience received by enemies upon killing you is reduced by 5% - 1200g
Rank 2: Death penalty reduced by 20%, gold and experience received by enemies upon killing you is reduced by 12% - 2000g
Rank 3: Death penalty reduced by 30%, gold and experience received by enemies upon killing you is reduced by 20% - 3000g
Rank 4: Death penalty reduced by 40%, gold and experience received by enemies upon killing you is reduced by 29% - 4200g
Reasoning: Might be a viable upgrade if your team is dying a lot, or if you have a bad player and you don't want him to feed the enemy too much.
Fort Upgrade: changed
Rank 1: Forts are upgraded with Trebuchets - 2500g (reduce war rank requirement to level 5)
Rank 2: *NEW* Forts gain 25% additional hp and they increase the armor of nearby allies by 15% in a radius of 15 yards. Trebuchets fire 20% faster. - 3500g (War rank 6)
Rank 3: *NEW* Forts gain 50% additional hp, and are upgraded with moats which decrease the movement speed of nearby enemies by 15% in a radius of 15 yards. Trebuchets fire 40% faster. - 4500g (War rank 8)
Reasoning: Right now forts are just a beefed up version of arrow towers. Ranks 2 and 3 would make them more of a strategic asset and add some interesting gameplay elements, especially in Fortress games.
Finger of God: changed
Rank 1: Does damage equal to 20% of the target's hitpoints - 4000g
Reasoning: Changed it to % from static damage so that it scales properly. 20% dmg is not that great, but it may kill a running demigod or change the tide of a battle. So war rank 10 and 4000g are fair I think.
Final notes:
My opinion is that, if a team invests in citadel upgrades, then buildings should become a significant threat to the enemy. I do not believe that the current situation, where towers are important only at the beginning, is undesirable because it leads to one-dimensional (i.e. demigod vs. demigod) gameplay. Fortresses, and to a lesser extent, towers, should be something that the enemy actually fears throughout the whole game, and creeps should be more than exp/gold fodder.
I think the only thing that needs a little improvement are the tower upgrades, everything else is fine as it is now.
Is that why no one bothers with, for example, Currency Rank 2 and 3?
This would definately make the upgrades worth buying, I'm all for it. Me and my friends play high strength towers every game now because normal strength are taken down way to easily, so anything that boosts them is good in my book, but this would be a much better system than the current one we have where only a few upgrades are worth getting.
Excellent suggestions; they all sound reasonable and desirable!
I just wanted to point out this. I don't think it's entirely accurate - I don't think your supposed to neglect your Demigod while upgrading your Citadel, your supposed to work together as a team and spread the cost around while working up your Demigod. Concentrating on Citadel upgrades isn't supposed to replace actually playing the game, otherwise it would be boring.
Having said that, I like the idea of Towers slowing their opponents - I'd have to see it in practice to judge if it's a good change or not, however it would certainly make chasing Demigods into their base a much more dangerous prospect.
I like almost all of these. Right now creeps are too powerful for the defenses when fully upgraded. And it's more worthwile to get creeps since they are a PERMANENT feature. You don't run out of them. Towers get destroyed so in my mind they should actually be quiet powerful compared to creeps.
I'd say make it so the splash on towers isn't removed but reduced damage. So instead of 400 damage to everything it's 400 damage to main target with 150-200 splash. Makes minions a little more viable. This isn't a starting thing it would be the first upgrade and each upgrade after makes the splash more and more effective. This is so it gets scaled with minions late game.
I'd say you'd have to increase the range on catapulatasauri because the main reason their range was so large was to OUTRANGE the towers. I'd like to see them still outrange them.
Well yeah. Since your towers are stationary, most citadel upgrades are defensive in nature. However, it should be a viable option to decimate your opponents with super-strong creeps. I mean, people already do that right now with giants anyway. With the improvements I suggest, lesser creeps will also become formidable.
I like some of your ideas, and dislike others.i agree whooleheartedly that forts need a big buff. Quite a bit more damage and more health.I like you building hp upgrade ideas.
The other ideas, espeically the much advanced gold idea seem not as good.
Honestly I'd be fine if they kept the Currency Rank 1 and eliminated the other ranks.
I don't think that's quite the purpose of the creep upgrades; they're not supposed to replace a Demigod, they're supposed to compliment them. Giving the players the ability to Turtle by having incredibly strong towers and creeps and then just sit beside said towers and farm the enemy until they can then stack artifacts doesn't really sound like an attractive alternative to me.
i have to side with Zehon here. your ideas in general seem to aim towards a) allowing more of a turtle game and b ) making cash much easier accessable. towers slowing enemies makes retreating an almost guaranteed option, because you cant chase your opponent anymore.
you also need to consider the consequences on balance. some classes will have a very hard time taking structures down then. a nightcrawler erebus or a ghost oak will still have the same means to kill towers, while most other classes simply get outranged.
and for your currency upgrades...it is possible that they are not used that much in 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3, but the game also supports 5 vs 5. the upgrades also have to be balanced for 5 vs 5 and i dont think all your cash generation is. if you want to stuff yourself with artifacts, you always can adjust the gold generation rate via options. its not necessary to force every game that way.
Well, I see one "little" problem with Fortressess. They are just too stupid (too easy to fool). It's just so simple to go to them with bunch of minions or put 1 single tower from rock, and Fortress will attack it forever. IMO, to make it more fun and more challenging, Fortressess should attack all targets in their range (they dont do so much dmg anyway, around 50 every second). That will prevent just 1 minion swarm to kill Fortress. I don't know if you guys played Fortress game in Pantheon. Right now, when you got minion Vampire / QoT / Oak / Sedna, they just kills Fortress alone in 1 minute (especially Vampire) and not get ANY dmg back !! They just have too many minions and Fortress right now can attack just 1 single target. Like you said, Fortressess now are exactely like archer towers (but with more hp). So what's the point of them ? They should be really hard to conquest, especially there are just few (1-3 ?) Fortressess on each map. IMO they need to be much more challenging, because they are the last defence of the base !!
Arroganace leads people to believe them to be worthless as "it'll never last long enough to pay off" and by the time the game does last long enough to pay off... its past time it shoulda been bought..
hidnsigh is 20-20
Agreed. If you're able to predict a long game, the benefits are there for the currency upgrades and the more players in your game, the better the payoff is. As it stands though, a general rule I follow is rank one currency ASAP, and if I see we're fairly evenly matched on the field and thus going to have a longer game, save for rank 2. I've yet to play a game where Rank 3 would have given us the edge - however due to my connection I am unable to play 4v4 or 5v5, where those upgrades really are quite useful.
I think the upgrades are too sstrong in this idea. Maybe downgrade them and create another full post.
Re: Turtling.
That's not the point at all. The point is that towers, fortresses, and creeps should scale with demigods if they are invested in. They will never be an alternative to demigods however, due to the fact that they are controlled by AI and thus are inherently stupid. I don't think having strong buildings will lead to turtling - it would still be very possible for two or more demigods to come together and take down a building, especially if they have minions and/or support. It would also be very possible for them to follow someone into their base and then port out after getting the kill.
I just don't like the fact that people start out avoiding towers, and slowly start ignoring them as their DGs become more powerful. I also don't like the fact that the majority of citadel upgrades are worthless, or worthwhile only in extreme edge scenarios where it's a 4v4 or 5v5 game that takes an hour or more. That kind of thing just does not happen often enough to warrant keeping things the way they are.
Touche' I completely agree with you. Towers aren't a permanent upgrade. They stay until destroyed while creeps are permenant. Having towers that can hold back up to angel waves would be nice. Expecially if towers was invested in instead of creeps. But i'm afraid then people would say forget upgrading creeps towers are better. If towers were strong i'm afraid people wouldn't get creeps because they'd just die against them.
That's why I also recommended much stronger creep upgrades...
Again Touche' I didn't see the creep upgrades. My bad
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