I just want to start off by saying holy shit, I just finished possibly the 2 most frustrating demigod games in my life. Erebus maxing out minion upgrades, and sending them to attack towers, and even our citadel, which almost made us lose a game we completely dominated in kills, warscore, and upgrades. If there was more than 1 erebus on the other team using that "strategy", we would have lost. There is no viable counter, as the only way to prevent it is to kill Erebus, and he can sit in his base and send his minions to attack whatever, and they have so much HP that not even the best AOE in the game can take them out (Fire TB). There are 20 minions running around, all with 2000 plus HP, always being healed, that can't be taken out, and they can literally burn the citadel down in a minute... talk about cheese, and something that needs to be addressed immediately. It's game breaking, and I feel lucky to have won the 2 games I participated in where this strategy was used, they were extremely close calls.
Nerf it, reduce the max number of minions erebus can have, that might be the best solution.
Also a lot of the time the effect from activating Ring does not work at all and the creeps stay firmly on the ground, so the bug kinda makes up for it lolol.
Thing I hate most is the fact that erebus ISN'T VERY SQUISHY. Sure he has some give but I've easily tanked a demigod long enough for my minions to eat at him and with over 200+ hps with 7k health and 50% armor he isn't squishy. He may do little damage but the fact that people say he is squishy is false. And trust me I play erebus and oak. They aren't by all means very squishy demigods and the fact that they can send their minions in to harrass you down 1-2k health then charge in by themselves with another minion pack and finish you off is kindof annoying. I've seen oak regenerate all 10 spirits in less than 5 seconds after I finished of the last one. Sure you can target them but with 2 priests each with 2k health healing a 6k health oak 1k every 10 or so seconds it becomes VERY ANNOYING. I just say they are too easy to get and have no reward to killing them.
I'm not for a complete nerf on them but erebus's end game minions need a little bit of an hp reduction. That or endgame AoE needs turned up.
Would it help if the Sedna went for a Yeti build too, with Horn to back them up as well? Wild swings might be good against minion hordes.
Also, it's really interesting to see how everyone used to complain about minions being shit, and now how the game play has evolved to minions being called for a nerf.
Furthermore, I don't agree that general's minions should give XP when killed. This would turn the minions into a liability, which negates the point of having minions as part of the general's abilities. The general has to focus all his skill points into his minions for them to become effective. The player also needs to work a little harder controlling multiple units at the same time. It's all fair trade in my opinion.
Yetis never help, we learned this the hard way.
agreed. I haven't seen a good yeti build.... starting to think its because there isn't one.
Just like to point out a flaw in your argument, erebus can't sit back at his base sending out minions, because he has to be near creeps to get minions. It seems fairly obvious that the enemy erebus was camping a creepline to get the minions to attack you, otherwise killing his first 10 would have ended the attack.
Minions are powerful, and some items are bugged, but to be completely beating an enemy and then be faced with maxed out erebus minions implies that the enemy got to lvl 15, which in turn shows you weren't really completely beating them, you just had a slight advantage in kills and warscore, easily overcome with the proper build and tactics (which minion swarming is a viable tactic). Obviously you were playing with a team unable to counter swarming minions, which is pretty normal, a lot of strategies can't be beat by certain teams (2v2 with 2 sednas on one team is very, very hard to counter without lots of stuns or ice TB for instance).
I was playing a game on cataract and I was regulus with 50% armor vs an oak that was level 18. I myself was level 20 and had ashkandor and around 5k health. Oak sent all his minions maxed out straight at my regulus. Before even 10 seconds were up i was down 2k health. Then oak charges in with shield on and I knew I was dead.
Simply they have too much health. If a regulus with 500+ attack with area and .8 attack speed can't kill a horde fast enough before it takes out half your health something is wrong. The oak had about 10 kills fed from my team and I had about 10 so it was pretty even yet he mauled me without taking damage. I had absolutely no counter to this. Something is wrong. And this was one on one with a somewhat squishy assassin to another somewhat squishy general. He was fighting 2 on 1's as well.
Plus oak doesn't need to even be near battle to endlessly send minions at you. Erebus even if he is there at the creepline doesn't mean anything. He has batswarm and a fairly fast movespeed. He is getting away almost no matter what.
Gloves should be buffed. Nerf Blood of the fallen. Buff Sednas Yetis. Lower Health of Erebus minions. Thats what should be changed with balancing. Also Nerf Acclimation.
QFT
mines mines mines, tb can aoe any minions , rook hammer slam, now if your team did not have an aoe type class that is your fault,
if an erbus is up against torchie and reg he surely won't skill minions, but will switch to full assassin build
same for Oak btw...
Parasite egg people..its what's for dinner...
kill the erebus and DON'T say you cannot cause he sits in his base. he must come out to build up his minion army! don't let him do that. destroy the towers next to his lane to push him further back.
one ub alone could do that with ease!
there is nothing overpowert, neather the minions nor the horn. learn how to conter this. use the right demigods and work together. well, this is a good tip in general. the problem why the one or the other strategy seems sometimes op is that most people do not work together.
edit: i find it really funny how people complain getting ganked by minions and their DG hold back to charge in somewhat later. that's tactics! remember all generals but sedna have to buuild up their minions! prevent this. there are many possibilities to counter such a minion strategie. don't play around with their minions if you can attack the dg or...or...or..
buy the right items to base your tactics on.
*nod* Hammer Slam + Rain of Ice = all minions go buh bye...
Same with mines + rain or hammer ..
ah, or just an ooze ub. well ooze won't kill such hp monster minions fast BUT the minions won't do much damage - up to -40% autoattack speed reduction is damn nice against ALL attacking minions (well more or less, there are still the priests and siege idols that could be out of range ).
the most of the demigods have usefull tools to coutner this. there are nice citadell upgrades and nice items too. of course you have to consider your opponents strategie when buying upgrades and items and your DGs build !
lol
Mines don't hit spirits. Never have. They float. I would have died to that oaks minions.
Explain how as UB I have the HARDEST time when fighting generals. Late game isn't the problem then UB has enough power but early game 8 minions at level 4 all with 1k health attacking a UB means you RUN... LIKE CRAZY. I've seen it happen and I've done it myself. Nothing UB can do to stop minions except stack armor and health WHICH is what he does anyway except minions make it so you have to do it even moreso than before.
I've used parasite egg and it works... decently. Late game is the only use for me. Early game is the issue. And you can't use parasite egg if the enemy general ISN'T EVEN THERE. Plus it takes up an item slot which in MOST TO ALL games I need for capture locks or something else. And when there is only one general on a team of 4 it's usefulness is negated due to the fact that THERE IS ONLY ONE GENERAL TO FIGHT. Now if it was 3 generals i can see that.
Not really. All this makes sure of is that you can't cheese minion swarms and auto attack. You have to actually do cost/benefit analysis when you use them. This would cause people to actually micro and manage their minions a great deal more, actually adding depth to the general class. There is no reason as I see it, that they should do nothing when they die. There should be a reward for killing minions, even if its small.
Why does my hero get expereince for killing minions of your citadel that are weaker than ones you summon yourself? If it defeated the purpose, you wouldn't want to ever upgrade your citadel.
The fundamental problem is that there is a big asymmetry going on here:
Some "Generals" can either be very good assassins or they can be very good generals. Assassin DGs can only be assassins.
Some DGs, like say TB, should be very strong against minion DGs. After all, TB has all kinds of AoE tools to take them out. But if generals like Erebus and Oak see a team that is made up of anti minion DGs, they can simply play an assassin build. And assassin Erebus or Oak owns TB and the like. The flexibility of Erebus and Oak means that you cant really counter them, or at least its MUCH more difficult.
Now there are some exceptions to this. A Rook might be good against both general and assassin builds (not too sure since I dont play Rook), but the point is still there: Erebus and Oak have two very different build types that require completely different counters. This makes their minion builds exceptionally difficult to counter since they can easily switch out of them if you try and strongly counter the minion build with proper DG choices.
Totally agree. Now they shouldn't give MUCH xp but if you land a killing blow on one you should get some. Like 10-20 xp.
Yeah i think this is the main problem. And both builds are very similar and only are maybe 5 or 6 changes to your choice of skill ladder. And since both builds are fairly effective it makes it just the enemy you are playing. I play rook as one of my main 3 characters (TB, Rook, and Erebus) and he does very well vs an oak one on one. But vs erebus it's brutal. 2k health nightwalkers against 8 towers may still mean all the nightwalkers die but it ties up your towers damage for at least 20-30 seconds meanwhile erebus and his nightwalkers are pounding away at rook himself. An assassin build doesn't work well against rook. Minion works very well for erebus and decently as oak. (I edited this last few sentances in so if i repeat myself i couldn't figure out how to take out the part below without losing my point)
I myself can play all the assassins fairly well and all generals except sedna well. I even relize PLAYING as oak and erebus that their minions are too strong. Rook is massacred unless he has all 8 towers up due to the fact that 10 nightwalkers sent in before erebus can practically negate the towers damage for a good 30 seconds+ because of their amazing health. Oak's spirits aren't as swingy vs rook but still do good against it. Spirits are unhittable by mines the MAIN reg build so regulus gets mauled by spirits. UB's ooze just doesn't have the damage to kill nightwalkers fast enough. And since the erebus spawns them almost if not FASTER than UB can kill them then UB is negated there. TB late game even has some trouble. I play a hybrid burst damage build that involves fire nova AND rain of ice and have trouble killing Nightwalkers late game.
Assassins in my mind are screwed over vs. these 2 demigods if they play minions builds. Torchbearer probally being on even terms but the other 3 are pretty much dead. Exceptions are regulus and erebus because mines DO hit his minions, rook and oak is fairly even due to the fact that oak doesnt have 200+ hps like erebus, and if they do a non minion centered build.
Another WALL OF TEXT!!
This is an exaggeration. Are you going to stop?
This is simply not true.
If the Erebus is using Horn of Battle, which many minion builds do, then the nightwalkers can easily survive that many towers for 20 seconds.
Erebus gets up to an 80% chance to convert to nightwalkers by a fairly early level. The Erebus can easily kill 1 creep in the time that a UB kills 1 minion. So Erebus can easily keep up with UB's kill rate with new minion spawns.
Really? I had no idea. Perhaps you could refresh my memory, what does Ooze do?
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