I have yet to see all that much of a purpose to LF's... They were intended to be used as a frontline unit, but they lack the ability to counter support cruisers like they were supposed to... They are of course weak to LRF's and just get slaughtered... I would like to know what people think of this concept and if someone has any ideas for how you could use them in an actual strategy... They only purposes I see for them would be cannon fodder and taking out carrier assault teams which are not escorted...
Alas, i spend more time on macro level strategy than on micro.
What abilities do the vasari have that can really be microed? Obviosly Jam weapons, reactive nanite armor, nano disassembler, disintegration, and the subverter disabling ability are easy to use, but what else is there?
Good question... I micro everything constantly... I probably turn a total of three abilities onto autocast... Everything else is manual, so I couldn't single anything out... All I know is that for constant microing, Vasari seem to rise above the rest.
I was just wondering; I ususally play Advent and occasionally TEC. It just doesnt seem like the vasari have any abilities that could change the tide of a losing battle, while the advent have the holy trinity, strikecraft dominance, and a whole lot of damage.
35 dps form a fully upgraded destra with the amplify energy aura ability at level 3; 38 if you have the kinetic intensifier artifact, and 41 if you have them fighting in a planet that was hit by a culture cannon shot. I usually have 25-30 in a fleet, that's 875dps, using the 35 damage per destra and 25 destras. 950dps using 38dps per destra, and 1025dps using 41 dps per destra. Even a group of caps can't match that damge output.
Advent caps at higher levels do above 100 dps for a single weapon.
The TEC can counter this by just sending huge waves of ships close together
The vasari require extra micro- nothing wrong with that, it adds depth to the game. But i think if lfs were given mid-high tier researchable abilities, they could, in effect, become another support cruiser and alleviate some of the vasari ship to ship disadvantages by interupting abilities and allowing a longer time to hit the enemy while they are retreating.
The problem i see with changing lf dps, armor, hull, or shields is that the lf is the easiest ship to spam, so if they are made more combat capable the game will be decided in five minutes. And this would screw the advent because there is nothing that can be done to the disciple to make it a strong combat ship, and illums are harder to get than other long range frigates.
Abilities seem like the best answer, and some very good ideas have been posted for what those abilites could be.
Here my idea of a boost for the LF in late game (mentioned above). Might have some issues left but for a start its ok: http://www.filefront.com/14134019/HitRunLF.zip
although i agree the LF is an underachiever compared to almost all other units aside from support and carriers. i think the devs arent going to make any significant changes simply because most people arent realizing the usefulness of the LF in other areas of the fighting.
1.) LFs are extremely useful in the beginning. defeating the AI to open up new resources. as well holding off the Pirates.
2.) Defense Defense Defense. while bombers, fighters and gauss cannons might hold their own. a small contigenant of LFs may hold the key to holding back an attack long enough to get your real fleet into the fight.
3.) as codan said. their inexpensive. and are easy to create. as well you can use them as a inexpensive meatshield to hold the enemy at bay while your real fleet catches up to thrash the retreating enemy.
I know alot of peoples arguments is that the LF was meant to be a frontline unit. but when it comes to real warfare. the same thing happens. a particular unit is put into action to counter a certian enemy unit and its found to be ineffective when the enemy changes tactics. so this unit now needs to find a new job.
and from what i can tell from playing SINS there is no true frontline. While your fleet may be off engaging the other players fleet. the pirates (if not destroyed yet) might be trying to dance all over your HW. Now your very own HW is the frontline is it not? ontop of that. are you seriously going to waste your fleet on sweeping up the small pockets of ships in the grav wells of planets and roids your looking to take for your own? or are you going to use a small "task force" to do it?
learn to use the LF in a different means just as youve learned to use every other unit in the game in a different way then originally expected.
In my opinion, Light Frigates *should* be the bulk of a non-heavy fleet. Sci-fi convention tells us that there are two kinds of ships in "navy"-based lores - ships of the line (LFs), and ship killers (Ion cannon frigates in Homeworld, for example). If you bring all ships of the line, expect it to be a slugout. If you bring a mix, the better balanced fleet should win.
In the spirit of this, I'd like to see themed "defense" powers on each light frigate that would encourage players to keep a 2-to-1 or perhaps even 3-to-1 ratio of frigates to other ships. You could theme them.. for example, TEC could have a passive called "Jamming" that decreased enemy accuracy against light and medium vessels in their immediate vicinity (does SoaSE even use accuracy?). Advent could get something like "Union" that passively splits damage, and Vasari could have some phase field that gave a unit a chance to phase out when hit, giving it a second or two where projectiles would pass through it.
The idea is that in a fleet balanced around medium vessels, you have to deal with the ships of the line before you can take out the specialists - so long as the fleet is micromanaged correctly, of course. It would also encourage tighter formations, which opens up a niche for AoE vessels.
This is a pretty radical gameplay shift, I understand. My overall answer to the question is yes, Light Frigates need a much more central role in the game's balance, until late game where they could shift off to a raider role (maybe give them better returns on the jump speed techs?), or their support powers.
ED: While I like original ideas that make sense, the fact is a radical change isn't going to be made to the game.
To answer your question, yes, accuracy does apply in this game. Almost everything has a 100% hit percentage. The exceptions are:
1. In asteroid Fields accuracy is lowered by 20%
2. The Akkan raises the hit percentage of ships around it with it's third ability.
3. The Rapture (Support Advent Capital) has an ability called vertigo. With each level, it will lower the enemy accuracy by 10%.
4. Flak have a lower than 100% hit rate on strikecraft by default. It starts at 65% or 70% if memory serves me correctly.
The problem is that lfs CAN NOT hold off ANY enemy attack. You would just end up giving you enemy's capital ship free experience. They are useful for 10 min in the beginning of the game to help your first cap ship clear out nearby planets, and that is it.
in my experience. they might not hold off an attack indefinitely. but they do give your fleet some amount of time to reengage or jump into the fight. it might not be much. and it might not be enough sometimes. but the fact that you want a unit. that is the first unit you can purchase without upgrades or alot of resources to be a more vital part of the fleet is ridiculious. its nothing more then a quick start unit. yes the devs gave it the ability to fight. but once you start researching the other units. the LF quickly becomes inadequate which makes since when you look at it from a standpoint that its initial purpose is to give you offensive and defensive abilities out the gate. i agree its alittle underpowered even for its initial use. and there should be some kindof change to its abilities. but not significant enough to become a powerhouse in the fight.
After the initial 10 minutes of the game. the LF should take a bigger role in buffering the enemy from sweeping your planets. hopefully in the future the devs equal out the LF so it can take its rightful place in the fleet. but until then use the cheap LFs as speed bumps in the enemies way when they try to run for the border or come hunting you down.
I used to try and use LFs like that, now I just use HCs to guard important choke points, and if the enemy attacks one of my worlds, I go and tear up his economy from the inside. If they continue to attack, while, thats why you have the big red button. My friends still haven't figured out not to get to close. Or they haven't figured out that I'm batshit crazy
Then give the LF some upgrade that requires its anti-AM ability as a prerequisite that buffs it and gives it a purpose later on. I just don't like seeing a unit without a single use after 10 min. As was aforementioned, create a new ability for them that synergizes on a large scale which gives players motivation to use more LF's. Be it a damage spreader for the Advent (would work great with SR btw), a Vas auto-phaser, or a TEC hull regen buff, I don't care. I just want something so that those ships don't just become a waste of slots.
Oddly enough, the most useful lf later in the game is the weakest: The disciple. For about 30 seconds at the start of a battle they steal antimatter and act as very good batteries. Then they die.
@mja5000: big red button?
If anybody is using lfs as a late game detterent then they are either playing against an easy AI or a person with brain damage. They are too fragile to hold up against all but the lightest of enemy raids. Put a starbase there and it will do the job better.
As i have said, lfs are near perfect with their direct combat abilities. Anything called a "Light" frigate shouldnt be a late game damage dealer. A damage buff is not what they need; better abilities are. SOMETHING.... ANYTHING.... Would be an improvement
Let me start off by saying that I'm an advent player, and that I usualy play against a group of hard/unfair AIs. Personaly, I use LFs all the way up to late games. My fleets generaly contain upwards of ten or so LFs going into batte, and once all the fightings done, I've lost about three. I tend to use the LF's speed to put it into a figure eight motion that keeeps it from the enemy's firing arcs as much as possible. Generaly, they'll strike out from one flank, and circle around to the back where they steal AM and shoot some stuff. Usualy the enemy AI turns s few ahips around to deal with them, then my deciple vessels retreat to the saftey of my Gaurdians and Domina Subjugators. Then it's a quick heal before doing it again. In general, i like to keep them to the rear of both fleets. I'm not sure how well this would work in MP though, but it's effective (for me at least) in SP. I love CaptainAndersons ideas for the passive abilities.
Here is an idea, make the lf like the so called superlings of starcraft. Early game, they make a good rusher but are still fragile. Then late game give them several upgrades and they are very very deadly in large numbers. Whether it is abilities or better upgrades for armor and weapons just something that makes a tad bit more useful.
Right now I mainly use them almost all game like I use midgame zerglings, something to distract the enemy for a short while (2 secs), while the long range more powerful units hit them.
Yep, i think thats how they were ment to be used: as a tool of harrasment and distraction, something that they are already decent at doing. I'm not too keen, as some other have mentioned, of the LF becoming a strong fighting ship. However, they could use a bit more in the way of ability dissruption.
If there was a combat buff to the lf, suddenly everyone would be complaining about how OP lfs are, rather than how dominant lrfs are. If it was done, it would have to be done very carefully and be a very small amount. Otherwise, the game would not last past 20 min.
Which is why i suggested abilities for them, abilities can be powerful, but do not make the ship unstoppable. (Guardians/repulse not included)
I bolded the important, and unbelievably correct information. This is how lfs are supposed to be used, they are fast, so why waste that speed by having them sit on the line and shoot? The steal animatter ability of disciples makes them the most useful lf late game, even though they are the weakest in direct combat. Abilities, not combat prowress. Apply this example to every ship and you see that ship combat strength is almost always secondary.
Ex: The marza is an ok ship, but nobody would bother if it didnt have raze planet and MB.
The Advent are strong, but take away the synergies and they are no more powerful than any other race.
In a game where there are "Heavy cruisers" and "Capital battleships" something called a "light frigate" shouldn't be the End All Be All of ship to ship combat. It should be a decent screen for your first cap in the early game and a support ship late game.
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