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Ahhh I had another brainstorm. I think trying to balance the factions on ship by ship basis is not a good idea.  We can run the same "tests" on scouts and light frigates and fighter and we'll probably find out same disparities.  Now let me ask you, has any of these disparities made it impossible to win with a certain faction before? Of course not.

It's funny how for 2 years we been hearing same cry all over these forums quite often: "WHEW The factions are the same WHEW. All that's different is names of ships WHEW." Apparently this is pretty far from the truth. So why would it be bad to try to make all factions very much equal? Let me make an example which takes into account one of these scenarios used for testing.

Player A has 25 Enforcers, Player B has 30 Destras.  Player B and player A get it on and start fighting the dumbest of all engagement, which you must agree would have to be HC vs HC.  One of these fine gents should have realized 10 or 15 HC ago that the opponent was spamming same exact unit... but anyway they get it on!  And it looks like the Destras are slaughtering the Enforcers... But wait there is something else moving into the gigantic battle ball. Something which could be a moon but it is not... WTF? It's a Vasari Starbase oh noes!  Well where it was probably an easy win for the Destras before, all of a sudden they are fucked!

As you see because of the faction differences, the game is not so easily balanced just by giving all units same damage hull or shields.  Also the test in question is rather not very representative of real game balance. 

I once had a WTF moment playing Vasari vs another Vasari. We got it on with the same amount of Assailants on each side, about 25. I focus fired of course, so did he. What was the outcome? He frikin owned me and had 50% of his assailants left. How could this be? It's the same unit! Right? I looked at the replay. He has 20% Phase Missiles to my only 5%.  Doesn't seem that big a difference right? But it is due to the amount of ships involved.  This slight difference in damage created a snowball effect because our respective fleets were so big!  So when you do these tests, the outcome may appear like a HUGE disparity, but it could be result of small difference in damage and a large snowball effect because the fleets are so big.

Also to note, in a smaller engagement, you can micro enforcers to be really really devastating.  When you fight something like 5 vs 6, instead of 25 vs 30, I'm more than certain Enforcers with repair ability would win.  You can micro them away while taking damage much easier because they have more HP. They can jump away and repair.  Or even if you stay and fight and use the repair ability, they will simply soak up so much more damage than the Destras, Destras will lose. Now would you then call for a Nerf on Enforcers because they win 5 vs 6 even though it's the same amount of fleet supply? I would say no.

Just something to keep in mind. We don't want to panic here.

True.  This is basically what I said a couple pages back, but I was ignored...

I prefer Vasari (I like the egg and Kortul especially) but I don't PWN everyone else just because I do.  I am also good with Advent and TEC, and neither of them are all that overpowered.  Sure, the Advent have illuminators and guardians, but still..  The point does remain that they CAN be countered.  It may take a large fleet to do so, but this isn't like AOE III where you can type in "tuck tuck tuck" and get something that kills everything by its presence...  Illuminators and Guardian spams do require some skill to use.  By default, repulse is not on autocast which means that any guardian produced will automatically go into battle without using it (and get kill btw...).  It has to be microed.  The same applies to illums.  A newbie will just send in illums if he uses them at all.  They will go to their maximum range and thus only use their forward gun.  This means that their other weapons are unused and they waste half of their potential damage.  

The point is, if someone is spamming, you can defeat them.  It is annoying to do so, but it isn't impossible.  The illums are not so OP that twenty can take on an entire fleet.  Complaining about this is somewhat important, but not to the point of convincing everyone to nerf something so badly that it becomes useless.  The same goes for destras.  Yes, they are the most powerful in direct combat.  So what?!?!  The point is, almost every advent ship becomes a beast at the end of the game.  That is the only time you will ever see destras roll out in mass production.

Direct Combat: Destra

Damage Soakability: Kodiak

Practicality: Enforcer

End of story.

I have made 2 nerf lum thread

1st one was to show that shield mitagation is broken. Lum with about only 8 dps beats an assilant that is suppose to be doing 13.  Even upgraded still loses and thats with a dps of 16 with phase missles.  People said its not realistic. 1 v 1 fights. So I made a 2nd thread

2nd was to show that mass lums vs mass lrm (tec or vas).   Advent lums are so op. Everyone agrees.  Arguing that I play only vas is BS. Yes I play a lots of vas.  I do play the other race.  Greyfox on the other hand ONLY plays advent.  All the games I play with him hes advent.

Theres a reason why advent players do the same thing. Its a dominate strategy. Get lums get repulse. Cover lums and repulse from air.  Sure Vas can get neutrals.  If we make it so Vas are the only race that can get them. That it would be fine.

I can compare Scouts, Flak, and carriers to show who has the strongest.  Basically I can tell you now that advent will win if you compare supply or cost

Repulse isn't imbalanced.  Annoying yes, uncounterable no.  No more annoying that having hoshi's repair caps and such incessantly or having 2 or 3 subverters neutralize your whole fleet.  LRF for vasari and tec outrange push and vasari get phase missles on their LRF and strike craft to skip through to the thin guardian hull.  The illums have to be forward a little bit to even hit anything because their range is shorter than push so enemy illums can still hit something.  Strikecraft of course outrange push but can be negated somewhat with halcyon or flak.  If you go against it with HC then you deserve to die of course.  There are issues with caps not being able to turn or move well with repulse which should be addressed because it is unfair to caps to not be able to even turn away from the push to run.  As far as enforcer upgrades being 4, 5, and 7 then I agree that is too high. 

 And yes, I do only play advent.  I will be the first to admit I may be biased about it.  It wasn't just illums you have mentioned though, JJ.  That doesn't change the fact that vasari and TEC can still beat advent on a regular basis and people still play vasari and TEC.  I am just presenting the other side(or playing devil's advocate whichever you prefer).  I will accept whatever the devs decide to do and continue having fun.  Its not like its the end of the world even if you convince them to nerf everything advent.

[_]-Greyfox

grey you dont realize.. SUBS CANT GET IN RANGE OF REPULSE therefore... SUBS CANNOT COUNTER THE GUARDIAN. the only reason we even have a chance is because distortion field is area of effect. because of this WE BARELY GET THE GUARDIAN.

you can say im biased and what not. but ive played ALL 3 races. i still play ALL 3 races. advent by far is the easiest to abuse and requires the least skill in my HONEST OPINION. spam lums. spam guardians. spam flak. gg to everything you can bring to the table.

you can say OH THESE NERF ADVENT TOPICS ARE BIASED OH THEY DONT KNOW WHAT THEYRE TALKING ABOUT OH EVERYTHING IS COUNTERABLE blah blah blah. the point is not that its counterable but the point that THE ADVENT FLEET IS SO FAR OUT OF LEAGUE OF ANY REASONABLE ECONOMY THAT FOR THE FLEET WE MATCH IN COMPARABLE CREDITS WE LOSE. WHILE YOU CAN PAY 500+ TOTAL RESOURCES FOR THE BULK OF YOUR FLEET WE MIX OURS.

Vasari pay 800+ FOR HCS ALONE for 2 HCS you get 3 LUMS that adds up. bigtime. advent is op. no one said it wasnt counterable. we just said its op.

And you can stop writing in caps.  The caps lock is there for titles, not text.

At any rate, I don't really think it was Greyfox being personal...  

I have a few things here:

1. Guardians are not OP.  These ships are some of the most unique in the game.  I like them.

2. Illuminators are not OP.  Possibly my favorite frigate due to aesthetic reasons.  By itself, it can be spammed, but has limited effectiveness

3. Illuminators+Repulse is OP, but counterable.  They are too good, but not unstoppable.  Something must be done to prevent this combo without nerfing either of the ships involved

4. Enforcers need a little love.  Not something big, just a little something.  Maybe you could increase the DPS by 1.5 or reintegration's regen rate.

5. The wave cannon upgrade needs to be moved down one tier.  This would give enforcer a more easily upgraded weapon.  The wave cannon is also on EVERY Vasari captital ship, thus giving a blanket buff to Vas fleets

6. I want artillery cruisers for ALL races.  As Darvin said, artillery are not the same as the assault ones that already exist.  If anything, it decreases the difference between the Vasari and the others... Its like a fraction.  24/25 is larger than 23/24.  The more ships you add, the more roles you gain and thus the smaller each gap is compared to the whole.

I am flat out tired of threads like this, but I do think that a problem exists and needs to be fixed.  I have been here because I intend to fix said problem.  If you want to bicker amongst yourselves, go do it somewhere else.

Ways to counter the Guardian:

1. Unless I am mistaken, charged missiles outrange repulse.*  Guardians have some of the least hull in the game.  When you combine the two, It ought not to be too hard

2. Distract the enemy.  Force them to micro somewhere else.  The guardian is worthless without being microed.  The same goes for the illum.  Without microing, the illum is the weakest LRF due to its short range and use of only half of its power.

I said that by themselves they are not.  Sure I like the Guardian, but without the combo with illums, they aren't all that bad...

Illums are one of my favorites due to AESTHETIC reasons.  I personally don't like the concept of one superpowerful LRF, but I still like the looks of it.

Illums without guardians can be beaten.  They do have counters.

Also, why did you quote the same line twice.

More importantly, why did you not read 3?  I said that by themselves (sorry if this was not clear), they are not OP.  They can be beaten.  When you combine them, good luck winning.  I think something should be done to nerf this combo, but I don't really think that the individual ships are all that bad.  Individual ships can be beaten, Advent Synergies are unstoppable.  I see two ways to fix said problem:

1. Nerf the Illuminators and Guardians independantly

2. Nerf the combination of the two, but leave the two ships relatively untouched.  Destroy their synergy.

Something else here, we are off topic.  Once again, I do not wish to bicker.  I came here to help, not get someone screaming down my throat.  I have nothing wrong with a disagreement, but when anger arises, I recommend taking a moment to calm down.  I came here to make fixes, not enemies.

*If I have this wrong, please correct me.

Hmm.. Very well...  

I do understand that they are good at what they do, but if we (a much larger group than they) could come up with something plausible, this could be resolved.

At any rate, the problem addressed in this thread is the enforcers.  The following are ALL possibilities I have seen that could resolve the problem with Enforcers:

1. Decrease Price

2. Decrease Fleet Supply

3. Decrease Tier level for the prototype

4. Decrease Tier of the wave cannon upgrade

5. Increase hull/shields

6. Increase DPS

7. Increase Effectiveness of Reintegration

8. <Insert Something I didn't think of here...>

Unfortunately, there is a problem.  What is the actual problem?  This must be addressed.  In order to fix the problem, you must understand it.  Otherwise, you cut the throat to cure the nose bleed.

However, I am not what I appear.  I have indeed been around for a pretty much the same time as you (in fact we have had quite peaceful conversations before), but the only time of the year I have time to be on here is during the summer...  How you express yourself does concern me as I prefer it to be peaceful.  I wish not to argue with someone who cannot express their opinions as such.  That said, I am not bashing you.  If I was bashing you, I would be poking you with a very sharp stick.  I simply dislike being yelled at with caps lock.

If you read my posts, you would understand that I actually play as Vasari most...

Due to connection issues, I do not play multiplayer often, and thus, my posts have been going by logic.  This obviously cannot account for everything and gaps have been found.

The reason I was giving suggestions was because I understand that in theory it can be countered, but in practice it is almost impossible.  Thus is the reason.  Each individual ship has a weakness, the key is to exploit each in sequence though.  I never explained the entire thing, as I figured it could be completed in one's mind, but seeing how it apparently cannot

1.  Use assailants to kill guardians while mass producing scouts to keep the illums busy.

2.  Bring in scouts/HC's to kill the illums

3.  Use LF's to kill the flak.

This system works in theory, but I know how difficult it would be to enact.

I apoligize for jumping around a lot though... Its late...

Now could we please get back on topic...

ascension has basically said what i was trying to. You can not kill gardians effectively with assilents or lrms. they do poor dmg to them. their illums will be able to tear apart your assilents befoer you kill them all because usually a good advent player will have around 10 gaurdians preventing you from killing them off.

*slaps himself harder than volt slapped himself*

Very well.  Guardian and Illum combinations can only be beaten in theory.

(Also, in my above post, I was referencing Astax.  I was not referencing Fox...  This may have been part of what started the debate.)

So, now..  What are the ways that you guys see as the actual problem here?  This I believe is the problem.  We have not diagnosed exactly what the problem is.  Is the problem with the Enforcer its abilities?  Its DPS?  Its health?  Before creating a proper solution, we must figure out which is causing the problem?

*slaps self harder than vasari for stating theory*

Ok...