Who do you think wins in the HC department?
enforcers take up 12 supply vs 10 for the other 2
so 25 vs 30 should be fair right?
Replay
(updated 6/26/09)
Using Entrenchment 1.03
Build time Damage Slow/Normal/Fast Costdestra 19.0 58 / 53 / 48 sec. $525 100m 90ckodiak 18.0 60 / 55 / 50 sec. $500 100m 70cEnforcer 20.0 72 / 65 / 60 sec. $625 150m 110c
300 supply calculations Damage total build time on fast Costdestra(30) 570 1440 sec. $15750 3000m 2700ckodiak(30) 540 1500 sec. $15000 3000m 2100cEnforcer(25) 500 1500 sec. $15625 3750m 2750c
V = VasariA = AdventT = Tec
lvl 3 = All upgrades up to lvl 3 (damage, shields, armor, hp, combat abilities)full ups = All combat upgrades possible (tec speed and vas slow ability not used)
Ships survivedV v A no ups 10 AV v A lvl 3 15 A <-- This is just wrongV v A full ups 16 A <-- So is this
V v T no ups 8 TV v T lvl 3 17 T <-- Very broken (due to early upgrades)V v T full ups 9 T
A v T no ups 4 T A v T lvl 3 8 TA v T full ups 12 A <-- Drastic Change
Basically Vas HC suck. They dont win any battles. 25 Enforcers cost the same as 30 HCfor the other 2 races yet they lose badly to their counter part. with equal upgradesthey lose more.
With no or little upgrades Tec HC rules
Advent HC will dominate if fully upgraded. Advent has the only cap ability to increase damage
Devs please rebalance.
Vas HC is tied with tec in terms as total build time. Cost wise they are 3875 more then advent HC and 8625 more then TEC HC If you do the standard 500 creds per 100 metal/crystal. So the test should be 22.4 VS 30 against advent and 18.6 vs 30 against TEc if you want to do cost vs cost for vas. For tec vs advent it would 30 vs 27.5. I cant imagine how skewed and screwed the test would be. Also Vas hc has the least amount of total damage.
So using again the standard 500 creds per metal/crystal HC cost
Vas: 1925
Advent: 1475
Tec: 1350
Vas Hc take up 20% fleet supply, cost 30.5% more then advent and 42.6% then TEC HC.
Perhaps giving it to a cap then? The egg and Kortul already have it, but I don't think the volkuras has it...
Vulkoras could certainly use a damage buff, and an additional wave cannon attack would help it out, but it wouldn't change my opinion of the wave cannon upgrade. You never have enough capital ships to merit actually sinking money into those upgrades solely for their sake.
True... But I suppose it would at least add some incentive... As far as the rest of the ships go, I have no idea who to give it to...
perhaps each race could be given a new class of heavy cruiser? might mix things up a little bit
Well, I was thinking about a LRC (long range cruiser) but that would be so overpowered, that it wouldn't even be funny... I am thinking though that a second heavy cruiser might be good... Perhaps you could call it an "assault cruiser." You could give it planet bombing as well as good anti-ship weapons. So, here's some general stuff...
Lote Assault Cruiser [TEC] {requires tier VI research}
Credits: 1500
Metal: 380
Crystal: 120
Fleet Supply: 14
Hull: 1650
Shields: 800
Planet Bombing Damage: 38 DPS
Laser Damage: 16 DPS
Abilities:
Marked for Demolition: Increases damage done to planet by all ships by 10%/20%/30% for 20/30/40 seconds and costs 60 AM.
Jam Remotes: Prevents usage of HoT abilities for all enemy ships within a radius of 2000/3000/4000 10/20/30 seconds. Costs 70 AM. {requires tier VII research}
I guess that was a bad example as it doesn't really deal with the unused wave cannons, but by adapting it to the Vasari and giving it a wave cannon... This way, you could at least give some bonus to wave cannons...
replays added
If the tests were conducted with L4 and L5 upgrades as well they might be more complete. Also the slow/speed upgrades have some effect, though if they're intended as counters to Repulsion that's very dodgy.
With 'full upgrades' shouldn't you have more Enforcers due to the supply upgrade- though wasn't this nerfed from the full 20%?
If Enforcers need a buff then I'd opt for the hull points rather than damage, as their edge on the Kodiaks seems small compared to the Assailants edge on the LRMs, especially when Assailants are L1 units and LRFs L2, while both the heavies are L5.
However, even if Enforcers are weak, isn't the problem more that other advantages have been nerfed? The returning fleets should never cost money and resources, nor the mines once you have a minelayer, but the outstanding issue is that the Subverters were too heavily hit when the Guardians were left untouched- why nerf one and not the other? Subverters have been left much too fragile.
I vote for a slight increase in Enforcers hull hp but also a reversion of most of the Subverter nerf, to make the cruisers effective.
The DPS could use a boost.
I think the big thing is to move the wave damage bonuses down some tiers. Why are these level 4,5, and 7 respectively? This makes no sense at all. Level 7 upgrades are ungodly expensive, and at best would be used on a 100 enforcer composed fleet. You ever had that? Neither have I.
Upgrade seriously needs to move down to 2, 4, 5, respectively like the others.
Frankly, I think if a new unit type is to be added it should be an "area-of-effect" attack cruiser. Extremely poor damage against single targets, but against many tightly packed enemies extremely effective. It would have longer range than repulse, and would provide the first real hard counter to that ability. Its effectiveness against tight clusters of ships would also make it very hard for flaks and LRF to cover each other flawlessly and give more opportunities for LF to attack flaks and fighters to attack LRF's. The light frigate would be the counter to the area of effect cruiser.
In the current build of the game, I really can't disagree. There's no reason for the enforcer to have such high level attack upgrades (although if its base damage was high enough, then it might be merited). If it shared its attack upgrade with another awesome unit, then we might have something to discuss, but right now wave attacks are a huge exception to the rule for attack upgrades and there doesn't appear to be a good reason for it.
That could be done... Perhaps have it carry light weapons but have an ability that is a long range version of Rad Bomb. Very little direct damage, but by having a range of 7000, you could still hit a guardian. It would deal about 2 DPS and would stack. If you fired multiple at once, you could have 30 DPS dealt to each enemy within a radius of 1000 or so... This would work well...
What about name? Demolition Cruiserr? Then you could add a second ability that is anti-structure... I don't know... Just an idea...
Yes, you could make its area of effect attack a special ability and then give it a base attack. However, the problem with a base attack is that then chances are a player has to keep them in a separate control group and on "hold ground" behavior so they don't go running into a melee to use said attack!
How about artillery cruiser? For Advent and TEC, it shouldn't fill an anti-structure role (Ogrov and Adjudicator have that distinction), but it could fulfill that role for Vasari since they currently don't have one.
True... Artillery would work. And it does fit the bill... LRM's are snipers, Artillery Cruisers are.. well.. artillery...
But you are correct.. Unless their light attack has a comparable range, it would make a big difference. I guess if their main attack was very small (say 5-6) it would work. After all, it wouldn't need any more high damage as it would already deal massive DoT damage inside its AoE...
Just a few ideas:
TEC Torwick Artillery Cruiser (tech level 4)
Incendiary Grenade: fires a single explosive round which deals large amounts of damage over the target area of effect. Has long range, but also has a minimum range. The projectile takes time to reach its target destination, and therefore is less effective against moving enemies. This special ability has a minimum range as well as a maximum range.
Shock Grenade (researched, military tech level 5): similar to the incendiary grenade, except instead of dealing damage the shock grenade temporarily shuts down all units (friendly and enemy) caught in the area of effect. Starbases and capital ships are not affected.
Advent Malsura Inquisitor (tech level 5)
Judgment [channeled ability]: all units caught in the area of effect take damage over time while this ability is being used. Shield mitigation falls at an increased rate while under the effect of judgment. Multiple inquisitors using judgment stack for damage, but not for the shield mitigation reduction effect.
Castigate (researched, military tech level 7) [channeled ability]: all units caught in the target area of effect have their attacks and special abiities disabled. They must leave the area of effect in order to have their abilities restored. The synergy with repulsion is extremely powerful (push them back into castigate's area of effet...), which is why this ability is so high level.
Vasari Jakosul Annihilator (tech level 3)
The Jakosul has a specialized attack; it can target any number of enemies simultaneously with its basic attack (wave attack type, of course), but they must be within its firing arc and between its minimum and maximum range. Consider it like a cone version of missile barrage (with correspondingly reduced damage and a minimum range). It doesn't begin with a special ability, unlike the other artillery cruisers, but appears earlier in the tech tree. It should have a researchable ability, but I'm not sure what that should be.
dont add...fix first
Admittedly a unit like this would be a great fix to the guardian, and it would also make it more difficult to focus fire en-mass without being vulnerable to one of those things, which would be an indirect buff to reintigration. That's more something for an expansion for a patch at any rate, and we did go off topic anyways.
Not much more to be said on the main topic at hand. Enforcers don't need a fundamental overhaul, just better overall performance. Higher damage, lower cost, better health, a little of each, doesn't really matter, they just need a generic buff.
@Darvin:
Oh how I wish the emoticons were working now... There is no way I can express how awesome those are!!!
@JJ:
Uh... the whole point of these was to create a purpose for the wave cannon. By creating a purpose, people will buy it which will in turn improve the Enforcer...
Back to Darvin:
In case I didn't make myself clear earlier, I love those ships...
I also have an idea for the Jakosul's ability...
Nanite Efficiency {Tier VI}:
Range: 500/1000
Duration: Passive
Effect: Increases the effect of all accelerated regeneration abilities within the radius by 50%/100%
(Affects: Repair Cloud, Nanite Plating, Reintegration, etc)
It may have to be nerfed, but it would buff reintegration to the max. Between the main gun with the wave cannon and this extreme buff to reint, I think this would more than level the playing field. With any luck, this would make ships take far less damage and would allow an enforcer to take 90 DPS without even losing health. I think this might just make the difference...
I've actually been playing around with the concept of these units for about two weeks now, and have been considering posting them for the past few days. I quite like them, too.
As for your suggestion over the Jakosul's ability, the problem I see is that the enforcer and skirmisher are both very short range front-line units while the Jakosul is a very long-range back-line unit. Not exactly the most natural of synergies. In any case, I believe the Jakosul already is indirectly helping reintigration. Any units focus firing a single enforcer are likely clustered together as a result; this is the perfect target for a Jakosul. This means the Jakosul effectively makes it harder to focus fire, which is a big help to big units (like HC's and capital ships) everywhere. It adds a lot of strategy to maneuvering your fleet, which I think is a good thing.
True... Perhaps it could be castable instead?
I don't know... It does need something...
Frankly and add is not needed in this deparment. A fix will largely surfice.
An ad of a subcapital ship as invision by Volt is something that is missing. Not to mention that add opens the door to fix the CAPs lacks in power in certain sections by making their abilaties work as they should and creating CAP only reasearch that will improve only capital ships. That's somehting I'll message you about Volt, but implimentation will need to wait until the destroyers and lancer are more along.
True...
Yeah reintegration AI is pretty flaky. I think it should kick in at 99% hull if your shield mitigation are maxed out. If your Shield mitigation is not at max, it should not kick in till 50% hull. That way it will react to being focus fired better.
Also if slight buff is needed I propose maybe allow wepaons or engines to function while reintegrating.
ADVENT AND TEC NEED NO ARTILLERY CRUISER
1) THEY HAVE STRUCTURE DESTROYERS
2) TEC CAN ALREADY REACH THE GUARDIAN WHILE ITS REPULSING
3) ADVENT CAN JUST REPULSE THE OTHER SO IT NULLIFIES NOT TO MENTION THEY HAVE AM BOMB JUST LIKE TEC
VASARI HAVE NONE OF THESE. VASARI SHOULD GET THE ARTILLERY CRUISER. NO ONE ELSE
The artillery is not anti-structure... It is anti-ship. Sure, it could go after a building, but it isn't intended to...
oh and NO NEED FOR CAPS LOCK.
Anyways, and how do they do that?
True, but that is like fighting an illum spam with another one. You fight rock with rock rather than going for paper... Artillery is paper...
I sort of agree with you there... As they have no demo cruiser, they should get a super one, but I don't think the other two races should be left out... (Although, so long as I can use the Jakosul, I'm perfectly fine...)
you do realize that the artillery cruisers of other races will be adapted the same way the HC's are therefore giving the vasari another are weakend. if we are getting anti ship cruisers vasari should be the only one.
You do have a point as the Adjucator and Orgov are already there... Honestly, I just want to see a wall of wave cannon shots smashing anything in their path. The others are not necessary, but I would like them to be there. If not, I just the Jakosul.
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