Like Cykur already writed, the main problem r not ilums.

Problem is repulse, and flaks.

And the only counter is Vasari SB. Tec r screwed , always

In my opinion, flaks, should be nerfed, for all 3 races. Its totaly ridiculus  AA frig is main fleet power. Its to strong, got too much armor shield, hp. Make them weeker and rests of problems will be solved.

People will start making HC and carriers for protection.

Also, guardians could get some  nerf, HP wise. Let them have big shield, cause   they use it to reduce dmg made to fleet, but nerf their armor and hp.

Or u can always nerf ilums.........

TEC javs are disposable, and with akkan, trully, long range frigates.

TEC "all purpose units" are kodies ^^

Tec javs are so frikking cheap that you can quicly mass stupid force of them, that dies equaly fast... and maybe kills something in process...

And kodies are cheap enought to rush into and spamm. Pair that with hoshies and you got prety solid army to counter illus.

edit\ wait, illus had an ability?.. oh yeah that illusionary thing that did nothing to actual combat...

It create a new frigates for X time that has exactly the same stats as a normal lum except that it does no damage even if it has an attake animation. The thing is their is no difference to the ilusion or the real thing. And thus you can spend 20 minute slosing ships shooting ont argets that do not exist for those illusions are just as hard to kill as real lums. So effectively it essentialy doubles the HP of the lums in your fleet. Like a 100% Sheild, Armor, Hull point and regeneration rate all in one.

Essentialy base lums 620 hull, 2 armor, 550 sheild become 1240 hull, 4 armor, 1100 sheild. HEY look thats HC stats but even better. Drestras have 775 hull, 4 armor, 825 sheild. So X number of lums with illisionary is better then equal X number of advent HCs.

Very Broken was well chosen.

That need a new expansion won't happen anytime soon and I for will not buy and expansion to a game I can not tolerate to play anymore. So that idea is a no.

So far I thought of 2 ways to trya nd fix this.

Way 1 is to place a damage penalty on lums using Deceptive Illusion of 50%. Cut the damage or the rate of fire by 50% or disable side beams while using Deceptive Illusion.

2nd way is to create an armor class for the illusion ships alone and give all weapons 200%-300% damage VS that armor type.

It's ridiculas that lums can generate a powerfull illision that will be as hard to kill as the real thing and that at no penalty. Assailants abilaty sucks and they get a penalty for using it.

In addition to all the stuff mentioned above, Lums can also be microed to move through an enemy fleet, and because of the sidebeams, actually kill a large amount of enemy ships while his ships are still turning to fire at the Lums. Now that's just OP.

Is it useful to concentrate on the unit stats as the most imbalanced aspect of Illuminators though?

The problem with Advent is that their Repulsion affects the short ranged weapons which are supposed to counter LRM, this leads to LRM spam as the only effective counter to an Advent fleet.  Further, the upgrade for Illuminators makes them very strong defensively.  These two problems are worse than even a considerable advantage on stats alone.

Also, the other factions are affected differently.  Phase missiles are an effective counter, but Intercept is a very poor and expensive tier 6 technology which is damaging to the fleet if left on autocast and very difficult to micro.  It used to allow cruisers an advantage against kited carriers....

There are other approaches to the problem than the dreaded nerf..

- Allow the Akkan, Cielo and Overseer to nullify illusion, as a passive ability.

- Slow all LRMs, also make all LRMs take more supply and LFs less.  Make LRM weapons less effective against capitals, or only as effective as LF.

- As specialist structure assault ships have been created, turrets should outrange LRMs, to help against early rushes.  Make basic defence structures cheaper.

- Restore the Subverter at least somewhat, also have the returning ships free again, though in reduced numbers

- Have Intercept nullify Repulsion, as a passive effect.

- Why not just have a maximum number of mines that can be maintained, rather than have ships pay for their abilities?  How can strikecraft be free and mines cost resources, thats silly?  With a simple maximum on the number of mines in a gravwell, they can be placed to counter a tight formation, which is a skill element, rather than just being a general hazard, which is dull.  Have specialist mines, anti-shield, anti-hull, mines set to home on ships using specific abilities- like Repulsion....   

Illusion actually only increases health by at best 50%, since about half the time, you're firing on real ships, and killing them I believe also kills the illusion (or if not, the illusion will soon fade away). Realistically, in large battles, it's even less than that since they can't all have illusion on all the time. Also, if you designate your targets right when they get into the grav well, you can decide what to attack before any illusions get up, making the ability useless. If you need to change, just look at which ships are real, make some mental notes, then reassign. Honestly, illusion is a pretty crappy ability, so I don't think we need to all freak about how OP it is (the illum itself on the other hand...)

1) In all my games I have never noticed that. So either I always picked real lums or it doesn't show very much.

2) They take no ship slots. I tested it it my self. The illusion ships have their own entity file and they take no slots there to. It's like missile battery for tec and planet bombing platform for Vasari no ship slots.

3) Can't jump.... I never saw an advent fleet using that abilaty leave lums behind as they couldn't jump So eitehr they despawn when they creator ship jumps or they do jump. I'll test this.

4) Experiece for a cap that is about to die since your not killing what's killing your cap. So it's pointless to coolect experience realy.

5) You wont see it early game but youll see it soon enought and it's quite populer.

6) Fromt he game fiel the delay is as long as the ship will last. So will in combat fake lums will represent 50% of the total lums he has.

Making >Assaialnet cheaper only fixed thing for Vasari doesn't do squat for TEC. So if you make assailant cheaper you need to make Javs cheaper.

In Sins Currently TEC and Vasari are prety well balance to each other. It's advent that is standing on top of the pack. So if you make changes to advent you need only to do them to advent. But if you make changed to TEC or vasari you need to make changes to booth of them to maintain their balance.

So it's easier and simply to simply just change advant as it limits the variables.

Hmm....points three and six USED to be true. I remember too many times where my opponent retreated and then left his fakes behind. Point 1 is my main point though. I'll renig point #6. Shame it's not true. Damn.

Microing them still works though.

Best TEC Answer: Scouts & HC's

Advent: Your own Illums, Scouts, HC's, unless he abuses repulse, then u need Illums

Vasari: Flak and/or HC's

Why flog a dead horse? Yeah, they're overpowered. Anyone who says otherwise is either an A.) idiot or a B.) munchkin... which is pretty much the same thing. I swear to god, Advent players don't even really have to stress out about credits too much in most games either; you know why? If people are using too-many damn trade centers (and there always seems to be at least one person that does this,) chances are the sun is going to have a bunch of merchant ships going through it. In multi-star systems this is certain to happen. All they have to do is set a couple of starbases, throw in one or two guardians, a couple of carriers, and a H. Carrier. I know this doesn't work in late game, but it certainly works in mid-game on large, multi-star systems. And it can in late game too... just beef up your fleet. Oh yeah, and if you (god forbid,) use the culture upgrade(s) for just ONE of the starbases you make life very 'interesting' for anyone nearby. And homing mines. And giant rocks from outer-space. And an ability that makes your opponent dead in the water.

You guys are worried about the lums when there are so many other things wrong with the advent, lol.

best counter for ANY lrf. is Missile barrage. If your cap. ship can get it off in time. If you find your marzas consistenty unable to perform, pfizer's VIAGRA© may be for you.

Vanila Sins 1.1

Illuminator Vessel:

• Frontal bank damage reduced from 58.5 to 53.5.
• Side bank damage reduced from 30.3 to 27.25.

Actuly I was sure they nerfed lums more times. But this seems to be it. WOW FEET DRAGING.

To make sure I understand your point with the math. You are pointing out the increases from 1.04 to the current 1.17?