ok now lately we all know lrm rushing has come back to the forefront of early game warfare. however thanks to amish... people now scout rush. now originally this was fine. it was a bold new tactic to add in a little mix however players have begun to abuse it obsessively and in all honesty since when are wars won with scouts and not frigates?
discuss
Just about anything can destroy Scouts othet than LRMs (Which still can in good numbers). Really, a simple counter is just building some LFs and drive off any Scouts until Carriers can be built.
Balance, people, BALANCE!
If you spam LRF's, you can easily get owned by a fleet w/ scouts.
If you spam scouts, you can get owned by anything other than LRM's
If you spam Carriers, LRF's will kill you
Spam HC's, Carriers will kill you
Just balance your fleets and stop spamming, it's that simple.
Koda0 (^)
The only thing scouts can kill are LRMS.. Stop making only lums. Crap advent have to start making units other then lums.
A few disciples work wonders against scout spammers. If you really don't want to abandon your illum spam then build them on a 2:1 basis (illums:disciples). Countering the counter and all that.
Indeed all I see from advent are lums and lums and lums and 10 flak. Goes to point lums are OPed it'S all advent needs it seems.
...and repulse
im not saying ilum spam is good but wht im trying to get across is that everyone seems to just scout spam now. now as advent i dont spam ilums but i find it annoying this counter.. especially since scouts are ment to SCOUT and not compose the bulk of a fleet..
If enemy fleet mostly has LUMs, and making your own lrms will suck against it, whats wrong with making scouts the bulk of your fleet?
because its now used as spam? ive lost a cap to mass scouts ok? that is just plain wrong.
That simply means IC has to reinstate carriers in the role of anti lrf counter. Witch it'S currently working againt TEC and Vasari but doesn't work againts Advent because their lums are just so damned powerfull.
tbh all advent ships should follow this role.. HEAVY SHIELDING lower hull pts and armor.
the solution to advent is this.. nerf the ilums hull pts down by... 150? 200? and lower its armor .5. ilums essentially become the advents HC which is simply out of place. they have 3 beams. 2 times the shielding a vas lrm 3 times the shielding of a tec lrm MORE shielding than a TEC HC and VAS HC which to me just sounds out of place..
My Solution... bring its hull points down 120 to balance it along with every other ship it has.. and bring its armor down half a point. what do you all think?
Well its true, since carriers aren't working that well against lrf anymore, scouts are the way to go. I like it cuz its not a "whoever has more lrm" in the beginning of the game anymore. Now more balance is required early game bringing in scouts and lf to battle, to a degree I haven't seen in a long, long time. Now its who has the better composition. Scouts to take down lrms, lfs to take out scouts and lrms ot take out lfs. Amish seems to have brought scouts as weapon against lrms to light and now everyone has something that can stop those pesky lrm spammers. I for one enjoy these new scout strategies.
Did any of you read this?
You can't bring down hull hp down to much because of vasari phase missiles. You need to bring down both slowly.
To me their are 2 things that make them lum overpowered when combined. Their extraordinary sturdines and their side beams that allow the lum to hit targets almost 360. Individualy neither is OPed but combine they make and OP unit.
see i wouldnt mind that but at the start its so annoying to see an enemy who just oh whoops.. 30 scout frigates.. like wtf? hes not even trying to use a feint to throw me off trying to build the counter. hes just RUSHING AT ME with 30+ frigates.. shit man i played proletari and he got up to 67 scouts. unfortunately for him he still lost but i mean really...... im all about balance but just straight up spam is garbage.
well if we cant bring down its hp that much bring it to say... 550? same as its base shielding and increase its shields to 600?
Scout rush is basically all TEC can do now. TEC lose to every rush atm.
I wouldn't advertise that post of yours, carriers definitely don't lose against LRFs, I can only assume that you meant light frigates. Aside of that: scouts might not be the counter of everyone's choice, but I agree that it's good to at least have a counter against illum spam. Especially since illums+flak are a really tough combo early on, because flak take fighters out of the picture, and getting LFs against them is close to impossible due to illums. And unless you're by any chance copying King of Kings sound gameplay you don't have HC yet
Okay, let me re-phrase my carrier sentiment: Carriers will get killed by LRF's+ alot of Flak.
Also, true, but I'm referring to mid/late game combat overall, so don't be confused by the graph if it doesn't make sense.
No you dont need alot of Flak. Just 10 flak will shut down carrier quite rapidly. Carriers have not been sufficiently unerfed.
Personally I think scout rushing is BS. I have mentioned this in other threads and finally now it is getting some attention. Scouts should not make up the bulk of anyone's fleet. Now let me break this to you yet again....... scouts are to scout! I know this may be a shocker to some of you who build 100+ to make up the backbone of your fleet nowadays but try to control yourselves. Scout rushing can be countered although it can be a huge pain in the ass especially with TEC(ever try chasing a group of 30 TEC scouts around your wells that have time bombs?). Primarily it has you building your own scout armada if you can. Flak can somewhat counter scouts attacking a fleet although I am not convinced of the effectiveness. Fighters do pretty good if you can get enough of them out before the huge fleet of scouts come barreling through. Scout spam is the worst spam that you can get because it requires little effort, research, or thought. Just making units ad nauseum to throw against your opponent who must scramble to defend against it being hampered by labs and research costs that the normal players do that make one get behind in the scout spamming business. Its pathetic. This really needs to be addressed by the developers.
[_]-Greyfox
Ok I do get ur point, scouts are annoying and if u think of a reall life situation, you wouldent send an army of scouting tanks to Nkorea and expect them to win a battle.
Scouts shouldent be used to attack lrms, due to the fact that it is unrealiestic to do so, as they are scouts and should jsut be used to scout.
However since the boffins! at stardock decided to nerf the carriers to a point where most fleets do not contain carriers due to flak being so op, it is stupied to use them to counter lrms .
I have tested a number of ways to counter scouts, this is what I eblvie to be the msot effective:
1. Flak - Strong, meat sheild and can take out scouts easliy
2. Light - dont really like using them due to the fact that they get raped too easily if the guy had lrms to.
3. carriers - good agiesnt socuts - but nerfed to the shit and once the other guy has flak, theres no point.
4. Colony Ship Spam - Effective in colonising. - jokes
Advent OP
As an Advent Player, yes illums and repulse are very OP. and no one ever builds HCs so why not make HC's higher in the research, or take it away all together, belive me I have only seen 1 fleet out of 50 this month which contained destras, seriously.
Repulse - Repulse SHOULD BE BRPOUGHT INDIVIDUALY FOR EACH GUARDIANS - AND NOT BE CONTAINED IN ALL OF THEM. such as resecrhing impulse will be the same, but to add them to a gudians will cost an extra 500 creds.
Illums - should have antimatter to be able to use side beams - jsut a thought. Once antimatters goes - sidebeams power will be decreased.
To stop the scout spam you'll need to reinstate carriers in their role. That means you'll ahve to un nerf the carriers and re nerf to some extent the carriers. I am playign game rigth now were the fighters from 10 carriers are completly wiped out in lest then 2 minutes by 10 flak. Meaning the the LRFs are free to reing supreme. Scouts is the onyl counter to LRFs that doesnt involve mroe LRFs, that is available early on but sadly scouts ahve ligth armor meaning flak will kill them. Just need to get more flak and keep next to your lrfs and your set.
Going back to 1.01 seems like the best solutoion rigth now. In those days the only spams you would see where carrier spams. But that wasnt a problem since you could rape them with LFs.
This thread is funny. Everything can kill scouts but lrms. Let the devs actually focus in something thats op like repulse
Everything including LRMs can kill scouts. This is about what can do so quickly and efficiently enough not to be overwhelmed by scout spam. This is about the idea that scouts shouldn't be the primary component of any fleet like has been the case increasingly lately. I have seen people build NOTHING BUT SCOUTS in several games recently. Scouts are scouts. They shouldn't be taking on a fleet at all. They are meant to SCOUT. They are supposed to run around and see what your enemy is doing. They shouldn't be engaging in much combat if any.
Why are they not "meant" to be used to attack? Because they are named scouts? Actually, only the TEC one is even called a scout! Just because you can't think of an inventive way to use them in battle doesn't mean that they don't have their place. If it works, it works! I don't see it being any different that using zerglings. Anything kills zerglings 1v1, and single ones make great scouts, but you mass a shitload of them and they can take out anything on the ground. To make another starcraft reference, one of the protoss ships was called a scout, but it was so late in the tech tree that it's clearly a battle unit, and was great for countering carriers.
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