There's been a thread about the desirability of the common state in 4X games where once a faction gets big enough, no one can stand against them since they can simply field too large an army for anyone to survive against, in addition to other benefits like massive research fund advantage and so on.
Personally, the "steamroller effect", where once a player gets big enough the game is practically won (typically in the middle phases of a game) even though a boring grind to take the rest of the map remains, though sometimes it manifests as an AI opponent achieving such a dominant position and swamping the player under waves upon waves of armies, frequently aided by a higher unit-for-unit power level. I'm not sure what the developers' stance on the steamroller effect is, but assuming they want to combat it to some degree, I've decided to write up a list of game mechanics designed to at least weaken its hold over the game.
1. Have armies in enemy territory move slower (can't take full advantage of the infrastructure for logistical support), which helps the defenders in organising a defence in time. Somewhat relatedly, impose a larger upkeep cost on armies not in friendly cities and more so even in hostile territory, simulating the difficulty of long supply lines into enemy lands. Both of these methods would allow military adventurism just fine, but would make them less of a no-brainer.
2. Give armies defending their cities (a.k.a. homes) some bonuses to reflect the fact that they're fighting for something with personal importance to them. Again, wouldn't stop a determinate attacker but would help to give smaller defenders a chance against larger aggressors.
3. Somewhat connected to the first one, and possibly laborious to implement and, if handled badly, boring to play with: create a supply line from armies in hostile territory to home territory and allow that supply line to be raided (and defended!) just like trade lanes. Certainly a fairly involved option but might make for either interesting strategic choices if done right or boring micro-management if done wrong.
4. Have research efficiency depend on resource expenditure percentage rather than absolute terms. That way, barring bonuses to research, a large kingdom with 40% income spent in research and a small kingdom with 40% income spent in research would be on an even footing. Or maybe have some sort of compromise, where the capital gets a massive percentage bonus to any research there but the rest of the cities owned contribute normally, which would still give a large kingdom an edge but not as large a one as in a traditional linear model. These sort of mechanics would help combat the research side of the steamroller issue.
5. Stress the difficulty of holding a city conquered by force. The possibilities for this include culture difference penalties to revolt chance, hero units better able to either stave off revolt or convert culture, creation of partisan units around a conquered city and so on. This wouldn't prevent steamrolling, but would slow it down and make it less of a steady onrushing wave and more a matter of series of expansion waves, giving the defender time to react.
6. Reasonable diplomatic AI. When an AI player is clearly losing a war, they should be intelligent enough to cave in to demands of tribute in exchange of peace rather than the all-too-common state where they just get more and more determined to war as their lands are steadily taken away. This would also combat the tendency of 4X games to devolve into an eternal war starting from mid-game. Maybe provide this as an option at game start if a more traditional political AI is popular enough.
7. Related to number five, have special governor units (or hero units with a governor ability) that are better able to help hold down conquered populace. This could go a number of ways, depending on how the governor units are produced: if they're like in the Total War series where they're the offspring of a player's governor-generals, their rate of "production" would be fairly static, or they could be relatively expensive special units. They would simulate the difficulty in finding reliable and loyal people to give command of entire cities to, and would make it harder to conquer a great many cities quickly.
8. Merely giving a high economical weight to commerce might also help somewhat; if the price of warfare is losing a not-insignificant percentage of one's income as trade with the neighbour shuts down, it also makes war a less automatically best choice and more a matter of a strategic posture.
9. War weariness mechanics, where a long time of war starts to produce unhappiness in one's lands, though wars of aggression and wars of defence should certainly be distinguished from one another in this consideration, with the latter having far less effect.
10. Attacks having a (small) chance to create low-level hero units for the defender's side as a call-out to the common story element where a person flees from hostiles only to swear revenge and becomes a determined enemy of the attackers who killed his family/friends/village/etc.
Now, I realise I'm not in charge of the development process and don't know what kind of playstyle the devs want to promote, but I'd dearly like to see at least some of these mechanics (or their ilk) in the finished game. I admit, it's partly because I like to play a builder style so while some warfare is nice to have, I don't like it when it becomes both endless and the self-evidently optimal way to play. I'm also willing to discuss others' opinions on these of course as well as to see others' suggestions. I admit that having all of them in the game might produce a game that's too hostile towards an aggressive playstyle, of course, but I wanted to write up a fairly comprehensive set of possibilities.
Lol! Ellestar just put Psychoravin in his place!
It's been a pleasure unmasking all you wonderful carebears for what and who you really are. Just testing the character and personality base of those that Brad might think about asking to join the alpha. Thanks for the info I'm sure Brad will be very interested in it.
If he wants a douchebag like you, I will wait for beta.
Well, I am all for varied outlooks for a well rounded alpha team.....but psychoravin!?!?! He'll just say that if Elemental isn't exactly the same as Spartan 1.13, it'll be a failure.
And here I am, not even knowing what Spartan 1.13 is.
I'm the same - I want a variety of outlooks in order that we have a game that is widely popular.
I do not want to alpha test with an abrasive jerk who's primary method of discussion is putting anyone that disagrees with him down, name calling, acting like he has an "inside track" with the devs, and basically has a very narrow view of how the game HAS TO BE OR IT WILL SUCK OMFG!
Seriously, if alpha is going to be limited to ~100 people, and this guy makes that cut, I will wait the extra month for beta. I would rather they let a guy who did not have a computer into the alpha before psychoravin. Why they would want such an opinionated ass giving feedback at any stage is beyond me.
I'm not grandstanding either. I seriously would prefer not to be involved in alpha if psychoravin represents ANY target audience that SD cares about.
You have some ideas. Some I can find interesting. Some surpass my knowledge so I cannot have a true opinion. THe rest, I'm against them. And here you have a forum full of people eager to listen any idea that you have to say and discuss them to the end of time if needed (as long as there is something to discuss). And what do you do? Be a fucking jerk. Period. Idiots this, ignorants that... Oh, and let's not forget that you beta tested for SSI. Wow! We should all die in shame because no one here can compare to that! So why bother discussing in a civil way with people here trying to offer some good ideas for Stardock to consider? You are so full of universal truths that no one else in this forum is needed. Well, maybe more wargamers like you but carebears like the rest of people that don't see the things like you do? No way! They can go to hell! And die. Because they are idiots and ignorants. And carebears. Let's not forget carebears.
Your social life must suck royally if you treat everybody like you treated us here. And if you don't, then you are nothing but an hypocrit and/or a coward. In any case, sucks to be you.
You started this but you don't have what is needed to assume your guilt in all this. Too inmature for it. You just got what you were looking for with your attitude. Now be a man and apologize to everyone you insulted. Now be a man and stop acting like a spoiled kid. Now be a real man and show everyone here that you can actually be a positive presence in this forum and that you can really do something positive for the game. I dare you.
This has nothing to do with a "variety of outlooks", and everything to do with him being a pompous jackass that doesn't really discuss anything. He comes in, insults everybody, and thats about it. Does he even have an outlook other then "lol ur all carebears"?
I'd actually prefer that the game be a good financial success for Stardock and not necessarily that widely popular, at least if you're talking about sales on the order of Starcraft or Spore. I'm a small-d democrat when it comes to real politics, but for 'culture' stuff, I'm some sort of elitist, if you can count a fan of the Trailer Park Boys as an elitist. (How does Julian manage to live his entire life without putting down his cocktail? Why is threadjacking so much fun when you do it and so annoying when it happens to you?)
I don't know what the hell is going on but this thread has me disturbed on several different fronts.
No idea. I'm still trying to decide whether he's serious or trolling. Supposedly I'm a pessimist, but it never seems to work out that way when I aim for less than rock bottom.
I think you're just depressed that we found a bigger jackass than you, psychoak
Though at least you're capable of rational thought and your most-often used word isn't carebear.
.....what is psychoak's most-oftne used word?
I
This is relevant to the conversation.
Psychoak's Top ten most used words Link
Hmm. To get back on topic, I would like to suggest that one of the things I liked about MoM is the er.. snowvball effects. Simply put I am not against the snowball effect as long as it does not happen too early.
However, some effects like building up an unstoppable hero or obtaining the armageddon spell did have a snowball-ish effect.
As I recall with sufficient time you could equip a high level hero with artefacts and enchantments enabling them to have a move of 9 and to defeat any non-hero army including a squad of 9 Great Drakes.
Likewise the Armageddon spell caused several volcanoes to erupt each turn everywhere outside your territory. And each volcano gave the caster +1 mana.
There were a couple of others mostly involving powerful either high level spells or concentrations of enchantments. The same holds true in Dominions 3 (Eternal Darkness Spell) and for that matter Fall From Heaven II makes snowballing a design * goal *, e.g. Werewolves.
To further this discussion I have started an alternative thread.
I refuse to accept any such thing, stupidity makes a jackass not. One's offensiveness must be taken in context with their ability to understand rational behavior. Besides, I prefer asshole.
Only because we're in agreement. The minute you disagree with me, I'm an irrational idiot!
Lies! There is no I in TEAM!. Oh, right. Never mind.
If you include the ones coursing through my thoughts, it's probably morons. I watch too much news for my own good.
Considering we seem to agree with each other almost completely on the direction we want for Elemental and disagree about most things regarding the rest of the world, that means you're capable of rational, intelligent thought the only place it matters. The world is going to hell anyways, one more irrational idiot isn't going to make things worse, but we don't need to take down Elemental with it!
Damn Pigeonpigeon, can I quote that last part to my friends?
Not if you're still lucid. It's the progressives that are taking us there.
Of course
My but that sounds really g...racious, I didn't mean to start typing that, did I?
Seriously folks, please don't be too nice too often to psychoak. It could drive him away, and he's useful. Maybe useful like an abattoir or a compost heap, but useful.
Don't worry, I have a strong stomach.
without getting too long a response, I'd just add that I think effortd should be taken to prevent sitting back and doing nothing from being the winning strategy. I think games where being active and attacking is the best or at least a viable strategy end of being more fun. I think the updates done to supcom reflcted this in some ways. I guess I'm saying that turtling is boring to me.. I know some people like it. I'm just saying, some of the suggestions to prevent steamrolling would lead to turtling beating actively playing, which is a balance I'm sure needs to be watched carefully.
Victory conditions should not be set on conquer. They should be set on a goals like HOMM quest map except extend it to he who discovers the burial site of the item first WINS! and/or casting the spell of mastery after finding the map quest scroll that would allow it. Goals like these help prevent turtling as characters will have to get out there and find these things. Turtling is lame and a chickens strategy.
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