There's been a thread about the desirability of the common state in 4X games where once a faction gets big enough, no one can stand against them since they can simply field too large an army for anyone to survive against, in addition to other benefits like massive research fund advantage and so on.
Personally, the "steamroller effect", where once a player gets big enough the game is practically won (typically in the middle phases of a game) even though a boring grind to take the rest of the map remains, though sometimes it manifests as an AI opponent achieving such a dominant position and swamping the player under waves upon waves of armies, frequently aided by a higher unit-for-unit power level. I'm not sure what the developers' stance on the steamroller effect is, but assuming they want to combat it to some degree, I've decided to write up a list of game mechanics designed to at least weaken its hold over the game.
1. Have armies in enemy territory move slower (can't take full advantage of the infrastructure for logistical support), which helps the defenders in organising a defence in time. Somewhat relatedly, impose a larger upkeep cost on armies not in friendly cities and more so even in hostile territory, simulating the difficulty of long supply lines into enemy lands. Both of these methods would allow military adventurism just fine, but would make them less of a no-brainer.
2. Give armies defending their cities (a.k.a. homes) some bonuses to reflect the fact that they're fighting for something with personal importance to them. Again, wouldn't stop a determinate attacker but would help to give smaller defenders a chance against larger aggressors.
3. Somewhat connected to the first one, and possibly laborious to implement and, if handled badly, boring to play with: create a supply line from armies in hostile territory to home territory and allow that supply line to be raided (and defended!) just like trade lanes. Certainly a fairly involved option but might make for either interesting strategic choices if done right or boring micro-management if done wrong.
4. Have research efficiency depend on resource expenditure percentage rather than absolute terms. That way, barring bonuses to research, a large kingdom with 40% income spent in research and a small kingdom with 40% income spent in research would be on an even footing. Or maybe have some sort of compromise, where the capital gets a massive percentage bonus to any research there but the rest of the cities owned contribute normally, which would still give a large kingdom an edge but not as large a one as in a traditional linear model. These sort of mechanics would help combat the research side of the steamroller issue.
5. Stress the difficulty of holding a city conquered by force. The possibilities for this include culture difference penalties to revolt chance, hero units better able to either stave off revolt or convert culture, creation of partisan units around a conquered city and so on. This wouldn't prevent steamrolling, but would slow it down and make it less of a steady onrushing wave and more a matter of series of expansion waves, giving the defender time to react.
6. Reasonable diplomatic AI. When an AI player is clearly losing a war, they should be intelligent enough to cave in to demands of tribute in exchange of peace rather than the all-too-common state where they just get more and more determined to war as their lands are steadily taken away. This would also combat the tendency of 4X games to devolve into an eternal war starting from mid-game. Maybe provide this as an option at game start if a more traditional political AI is popular enough.
7. Related to number five, have special governor units (or hero units with a governor ability) that are better able to help hold down conquered populace. This could go a number of ways, depending on how the governor units are produced: if they're like in the Total War series where they're the offspring of a player's governor-generals, their rate of "production" would be fairly static, or they could be relatively expensive special units. They would simulate the difficulty in finding reliable and loyal people to give command of entire cities to, and would make it harder to conquer a great many cities quickly.
8. Merely giving a high economical weight to commerce might also help somewhat; if the price of warfare is losing a not-insignificant percentage of one's income as trade with the neighbour shuts down, it also makes war a less automatically best choice and more a matter of a strategic posture.
9. War weariness mechanics, where a long time of war starts to produce unhappiness in one's lands, though wars of aggression and wars of defence should certainly be distinguished from one another in this consideration, with the latter having far less effect.
10. Attacks having a (small) chance to create low-level hero units for the defender's side as a call-out to the common story element where a person flees from hostiles only to swear revenge and becomes a determined enemy of the attackers who killed his family/friends/village/etc.
Now, I realise I'm not in charge of the development process and don't know what kind of playstyle the devs want to promote, but I'd dearly like to see at least some of these mechanics (or their ilk) in the finished game. I admit, it's partly because I like to play a builder style so while some warfare is nice to have, I don't like it when it becomes both endless and the self-evidently optimal way to play. I'm also willing to discuss others' opinions on these of course as well as to see others' suggestions. I admit that having all of them in the game might produce a game that's too hostile towards an aggressive playstyle, of course, but I wanted to write up a fairly comprehensive set of possibilities.
Wow psychoravin,
You show up and start saying StarDock would be "ignorant" if they ended the game when the channeler dies, now anyone that does not want their channeler to be UNIVERSALLY HATED by all ai players from day one is a carebear, and anyone who dares disagree with you is "Unintelligent and uninformed" unless of course, they have played the greatest example of AI in a game ever, Spartan 1.13 - I guess if they have played it and still disagree with you they are just crybaby hacks who can't take a real man's game.
Wow, I am almost in fear of challenging the assertions of such an obvious real man, I fear even responding to your manliness, the mere whiff of your testosterone might destroy me. But I am feeling particularly brave to day, so I am going to make an attempt.
What you are saying may hold true for a straight WAR simulation. That isn't what I understand EWOM to be - it's a magic CIVILIZATION simulation. It is not all about strategy and warfare, there is economics and diplomacy and who knows what else. Obviously I haven't seen the game but everything I have read so far leads me to believe that. So maybe it is ignorant, unintelligent and uninformed of you to show up and start swinging your mighty e-peen around about what would make this a great game and anyone that disagrees is an idiot or a pussy. In other words, your opinion is welcome, your slander of anyone that disagrees with you is not. Of course this is the internets, and you are free to act like as big of a horse's ass as you want. Just don't expect for your opinion to be listened to or respected if you can't have a civil discussion and refrain from ridicule, name calling, and overall being a jerk.
My simple response is to have all the remaining AIs (and send an invite to the human if the dominate player is an AI) to form an alliance to rid the scourge of the lands.
This post is amazing. I've read it three times and it's never failed to make me laugh!
This is the crux of the problem. Elemental is not a wargame, nor was it ever intended to be a war game. It is planned to be a civilization builder (including all that goes along with that in a fantasy setting - warfare, economy, magic, diplomacy) with a not-so-small RPG element. The thought of automatically and irrevocably being at war with everyone and always being ganged up on by everyone totally kills the diplomacy and RPG aspects. And quite frankly, if the AI in this game is as good as the AI in GC2, the game would be more or less impossible. Most people enjoy having a decent shot at success. This is a game, not a professional war games simulator, and thus its purpose is to provide entertainment, not an insurmountable challenge.
All psychoravin has to do is Piss off all his neighbors...
Based on his posts so far, that shouldn't be difficult....
Oh, you meant in the game... Not a bad idea, actually a great idea. He can achieve what he wants by being a complete ass whenever the diplomacy window pops up, I realize that might be a stretch for him, but I think he can do it!
Well, Psychoravin is used to facing all other factions at once, be it humans or AI....yes, he pisses everybody off that much! So, he justifies the alliances against him as some sort of proof that he is the ultimate gamer.
Now, he wants everybody else to experience how it feels to face hopeless odds.....a kind of 'you hurt me, now I want you to feel my pain as well'.
Hehe, Psychoravin, don't take this post to much to heart. I am really just joking around with you.
That's exactly what I meant. If he doesn't want allies he doesn't have to have any.
I can vaguely remember at least one TBS game where I could choose a 'tone' in the diplo messaging interface.
If Elemental only manages to add one major improvement to GC2 diplo functions, I'd like it to be a strategically meaningful 'tone' function of some sort. And by "strategically meaningful," I mean I want to need to learn something about another channeler's faction before I can decide whether or not to be manipulative when I make a basic choice like Groveling, Humble, Neutral, Proud, or Aggressive. Unless I know something about the other channler, my real choice about any tone options should be whether I want to be honest or not. I'd love to see the AIs remember and respond to a history of exchanges with 'tone' and include that in their math for how much to trust other players.
Great point!
Really? Go play Spartan on hardest or impossible and tell me how well you beat several ai's. You try to qualify your agenda with ignorant statements about playing other humans which is totally unintelligent of you and comparing apples to oranges once again (Can anyone stay on my subject matter? guess not that is typical of carebears).
AI's do win if the game is BUILT AROUND THEM. There are several good ai's out there (not many just several). Most of them suk though and are toned down for carebear players like you all. Also don't try to change the subject to playing other humans or multiplayer IF you can READ Brad is making a primarily SOLO SINGLE PLAYER GAME and not cutting any corners for multiplayer. Thus that means the AI MUST BE EXCEPTIONAL in this game beyond all those other wannabe games like AOW series and HOMM and that gawd awful Diciples of craptoria. So, my points are adamant toward how the ai in THIS game should be. How the game as a whole should be built.
Thing is after thinking about it I really don't have to soap box so much since I'm sure Brad already knows this and won't put in stilly stupid ignorant types of programming that turns the game into a carebear one. If he makes the game in the light and simular to GalCiv2 and the ai just as good I'm sure I'm not going to have any worries, but, you carebears are.
....Psychoravin, what are you so confrontational about? So, you want tough, effective AI opponents? Well, this may shock you, but the rest of us want that too!
No no no, I want my AI to send care bears after me. All this repetative mentioning of them has me feeling ursicidal.
Take your karma like the bitch you are, straight boy.
Hah! Eat me, you homo! The number hasn't increased yet.
Wow, I keep thinking psychoravin has hit bottom, but then he just keeps on digging. He's gonna fall off the other side of Earth soon.
He is like some kind of Messiah who'll bring all of humanity together in harmony...in order to better smite him!
Oh, c'mon guys. You should've figured out by now that's he's just another attention-seeking douchefag of a troll.
I'm a masochist with 30+ guns lying around, so that's not exactly worrying.
Luckmann gets karma +1 for threatning Psychoak with the most devestating weapon known to man!
Hey, psychoravin, I think I've seen you in the movies... Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring. You played the really big monster that stabs Frodo in Moria, am I right?
In the movie, Psychoravin/Troll stabs Frodo. BUT, if you watch the Director's edition, you'll see Psychoravin/Troll then start talking smack to Frodo about how Real Halflings play Spartan 1.13 and how the Fellowship are a bunch of carebears who can't even fight their way out the Mines of Moria.
HAHAHAHA..
I guess psychoravin is just a raving psycho?
LOLNOOB
Carebear - Term applied by PvP (player vs. player) participants in an online role-playing game to those players are disinterested in PvP conflict. Usually derogatory.
Since you're disinterested in PvP conflict and prefer PvE vs AI, you're a carebear by definition. OMGWTFPWNED NOOB
He keeps bringing Brad. I'm looking forward to when Brad shoves a ban stick up his ass.
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