Say it's not so!
I have no problem with you 'knowing' KFC. You may 'know,' but you can't prove God's existence, anymore than I can disprove God's existence, which is my point (which you know anyway, pun intended).
It is if you want your god's rules to apply to everybody, or for special rules to apply because of your belief.
Actually, it is an observation. Besides, even if no truth is absolute, then there is no absolute truth, eh?
You too?! Well then there's our proof!
I can see it now...Jesus saying, "God...why are you hiding?" God says, "Just look at my creations, would you want to be found by them!?"
A God playing peek-a-boo, lol.
I don't know --> Agnostic, without knowledge. You do realize KFC, that for all purposes, you're an atheist and agnostic?
These sort of things really do make your head spin sometimes don't they?
Darn straight, very well said.
~Alderic/hope4iran
daiwa posts# 60
lula posts:
kfc posts:
Absolutely true.
Very good question and one that Naysayers avoid.
As to belief by faith,
First, Faith is not necessary to arrive at the conclusion that God exists...faith, though, is necessary for the full acceptance of His Revelation.
In religion, Faith is a supernatural (Divine) virtue and a great gift of God. It's not an antithesis to reason, rather it teaches us things which are above reason for the revealed truths known only to God must be above ordinary human thought. But while faith teaches some truths which are so profound as to be above human reason, it never teaches any single doctrine which is opposed to sound and rational principles. If you can prove any Catholic doctrine to violate correct principles of reason, I shall cease to believe it at once!
I've said that by both Divine and human faith in science we believe things. Certainly you understand that. Now people don't believe with their feelings and emotions...we believe with our minds, therefore belief is a mental conviction.
If a Marine officer tells a woman that her son has been killed, her faith in his knowledge and veracity will make her believe the truth that he's been killed. From this knowledge, emotion may follow as an effect. But an effect is not the cause just as perception is not the same as or cause of reality.
Faith then is not an emotion, nor is it of the senses. Faith is an intellectual admission that a certain thing is true becasue although we have not seen the reality ourselves we reasonably admit that the one who told us must be reliably informed and will not deceive us. Nor is Faith involuntary. If I see an accident I know that it has occurred, and it's useless to tell myself it didn't occur. But if you tell me of an accident, and I didn't see it occur, then I have no direct evidence and I can choose to believe you or not. I can put my faith in what you tell me or refuse.
Furthermore as to believing by Divine Faith, we prove that God has said a thing and believe because He has said it. Doubt would be possible only if God could deceive or be deceived. But He could not. He knows all things and is Truth Himself. And He also has given abundant external signs to confirm His revelation of Himself to us.
Who's to say that such things are the work of God? If you choose to believe the bible (written by falliable men), then I guess that would be it. It still make me wonder though" What if you're the ones that are blind? Can you prove otherwise? No. You have only your faith, and assertions. Can I prove otherwise? No.
To each their own, just so long as it goes no further than the tip of their nose.
Pfft, don't tempt me!
~Alderic
Daiwa posts:
At least you are truthful in acknowledging that you (nor anyone else for that matter) is able to disprove God's existence.
But that Almighty God exists is beyond a question of reasonable doubt. The purer the heart of the person, the clearer his mental vision of Him. When KFC says, "Sure, we can't see God but we can see evidence of him everywhere", she speaks truth. Truth is in possession. People do not have to persuade themselves there is a God...rather, they have to persuade themselves there is no God. And yet, no one who has attained such a temporary persuasion has been able to find a valid reason for it. We don't grow into the idea of a God; we endeavor to grow out of it.
First...when I say that Almighty God exists I'm talking about the Lord God Who is the One, True and Supreme Being, an Infinitely Perfect Spirit, the Creator and Lord of Heaven and earth. God possesses all perfections without measure or number. God Almighty, Eternal, Infinite in intellect; All knowing, everywhere present, All Holy, Just, Merciful, Good, True, Faithful and Unchangeable. God is the Beginning and End of all things and can be certainly known by the light of natural reason.
Romans 11:20 "for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made." That means our idea of God is acquired from the dawn of reason that comes to us via natural law.
Wisdom 13 assures the mind of man naturally rises from nature's Origin and Source, from things caused by a Necessary First Cause that always was, is and always will be, on which all things depend. The many proofs for the existence of ALmighty God comes from the fact that we humans instinctively know that we are limited in thought and activity, and feel deep in our heart that only a Supreme Being can satisfy the aspirations and longings of our soul. In short, natural law written in our heart reveals God to us, as the First Cause, the Necessary Being, the Prime Mover, and the Designer and Orderer of the universe, the Origin of Life, the Supreme Lawgiver and the Ultimate Good.
Some think that evidence must be seen or touched, but not necessarily so. We all have reason and intelligence and can appreciate intellectual evidence. Even apart from the Holy Bible, reason can detect sufficient evidence to guarantee the existence of God.
Now it would take alot of space to fully develop this and I'll only argue from causality as put forward by St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica. Aquinas' first proof is from causality. The universe limited in all its details could not be its own cause. It couldn't come together with all its regulationg laws anymore than the San Francisco bridge could just happen or a clock could assemble itslef and keep perfect time witout a clock-maker.
Now it would take alot of space to fully develop this and I'll only argue from causality as put forward by St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica. Aquinas'
The end of a thing is the purpose for which it was made. The end of a clock is to keep time and the end of a pen is to write. For what purpose was man made and if we discover that we'll know his end. Look around, everything has a purpose or an end. The soil is made for plants to grow for animals and us to eat and from this we can easily see that everything in the world was made to serve something else.
Was mankind made for something in the world? The answer is no.
We see all classes or beings were created for something higher than themselves. Plants are higher than soil because they have life and soil doesn't. Animals are higher than plants becasue they have life and can feel and plants cannot. Man is higher than animals becasue he has reason and intelligence and can understand while animals cannot.
There must be something higher than man himself but there is nothing higher than him in the world so we must look beyond to find that for which he was made. And looking beyond and considering all things, we find man was made for Almighty God..to know, love and serve Him both in this world and in everlasting life in Heaven.
On this same principle that the bridge and the clock need a maker, if there were no God, there would be no you to dispute or question His existence.
Then what is higher than god? If there has to be something higher than anything then there has to be something higher than god. If you accept that the chain can end with god it could just as easily end with humans.
Plants feel, plants communicate, plants live.
First, This would be true and applicable only if each one of us were an island...but we are part of the whole human race and no man is an island...and for good reason. Do you know what that reason is?
Second,
Assuming I understand your point correctly, I'll rewrite what you said.
To each their own, just so long as (their faith and assertions) go no further than the tip of their nose.
In other words, according to this, I'm supposed to keep my faith and my assertion of my faith to myself? Where does this "rule of behavior" come from? By this, aren't you attempting to deny me, a person of devout Christian faith, my inalienable freedom of speech, conscience and association in the public arenas?
Isn't this the goal of practical Atheists......to shut up those who believe in God?
Isn't this the goal of the radical homsexual movement.....to silence Christians who publically stand against their sexual behavior and the negative ramifications of legitimizing the practice of homosexuality in law?
Isn't this the goal of the radical pro-abortion movement...to silence Christians who publically stand for the dignity of life in all its stages from conception to natural death?
And anyway, even if we accept that there has to be a creator where is the evidence that it is YOUR creator?
Why not the flying spaggetti monster?
Why not Odin?
Why not zeus?
They all have routes by which a god created the universe.
This reminds me of one of my sons whom I will keep nameless. I could always tell what he did and where he was going by seeing the evidence of him everywhere even if I was miles away at the time. I'd come home and see his trail.......I could see he made pudding by the crumbs and drops of milk on the counter. I could tell he had canned ravioli for dinner because of the can left next to the microwave and the drawer wide open where he found the can opener. I could tell he took a shower (left shower curtain open) and went to work by the dirty clothes he left on the floor and the fact that his work shirt wasn't on the floor.
I can tell it's a windy day by seeing the trees move. I can't really see the wind. I can only see the evidence of it. I know the diff between wind and air is power. I look around at our world and just like I can see my son's fingerprints left behind I can also see the Creator's and it's very powerful evidence. I also believe this is because God has given me eyes to see. Not everyone can see what I see or what Lula sees. But you can't tell us, we're not seeing when we can see quite clearly.
I'm telling you that you are blinded by the darkness and you can't see. Only when this darkness is taken from you will you be able to see what we are seeing. I can't take that blindness away. I wish I could because I would. Only God can make the blind see. So if you truly wish to see this evidence that you're asking (mostly in jest), you need to go to him and ask for spiritual sight. He will provide that evidence that you're asking for. He says this:
"This is what the Lord says, he who made the earth, the Lord who formed it and established it-the Lord is his name. Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know."
You know Dawia there are traditionally 4 basic arguements used to prove God's existence. They are called the cosmological, teleological, axiological and ontological arguments. Are you familiar with these?
Something is keeping us in existence right now so we don't just disappear. The best argument for the existence of God in my book is creation (cosmos). Because the argument from Creation proves not only that God exists but that He has power. Only a God with incredible power could create and sustain the whole universe. Even Sagan admitted that the design of the universe is beyond anything that man could devise. We also see great intelligence in the design
God's rules do apply to everyone. There's one God. One universe. One earth. He sent his son to the whole world with a message. So either you believe him or you don't. There was no one else to send that knew God the Father like he does. So if you don't believe Him, you're not going to believe me.
Ignorance of the law doesn't help you in the physical world. Neither will ignorance of God's laws help you in the hereafter.
Nothing is higher than ALmighty God. Or the problem goes on forever, the whole endless chain of dependent beings as one being higher than the next is not rational.
The universe, including time, space and all matter that is in it, is obviously created and that which is created supposes a Creator. The Creator God is Uncreated, therefore there is no something higher than God. It is rational to argue to an uncreated Maker as Aquinas does. It is not rational to ask "Who created this uncreated Maker?"
In order to explain simply..look at God as I hold Him to be...the First Cause. The first is first, is it not? If there were such an impossible thing as the cause of the First Cause, it would not be the First Cause. Almighty God was not created. If He were, He would be a creature and would have a creator. God always existed. He never began and will never cease to be....He is Eternal...He is the Maker of the made.
I didn't.
Only if you believe it is beyond a question of reasonable doubt.
None of that proves YOUR god exists, nor that his rules are the correct ones.
It is true, and something that more should live by. Granted, no one is an island in this world and most people push into other people's lives, unfortunately. However, I doubt proselytizing helps the average man when he says no. Point being, you claim that it is your calling to recruit, but yet it seems that you fail to grasp the pluralism in our society in that that not everyone wants to hear you. There will be those who intentionally turn a deaf ear and blind eye - free will sets the likelyhood that there will be, in your words, sinners who wind up in hell. If so, then so be it.
Their faith, their greed, anything lula. While currently you and I are on the topic of faith, it extends (in my eyes) to anyone and everything. The world doesn't need people shoving things onto others (naively, ignorantly, intentionally, or any other way). If someone says I don't want to hear two jehovah witness' preaching at my door - they have the will and right to keep the door closed. Likewise, if you don't want to deal with the claimed "gay agenda," then you can shut off the television, or close your door. Everyone comes with the ability to filter (and unfortunately, complain as well...). You just have to use it once in a while. You also have to realize, and understand - if not accept - the diversity in the world.
On the contrary, lula. Despite your view that I'm trying to usurp your right - I'm in fact supporting it, as well as others rights to exercise theirs. This so called Gay agenda, or Atheistic crusade...they're also expressing their right to free speech, as well as their free will. Go ahead, try and a convert, but do so in a mindful way. That is, mindful of those doors that will slam on you and those ears who will not listen; because we live in such an interwoven society, you have to keep in mind that your actions will affect others.
Isn't it the goal of radical fundamentalist christians to quell those who desire to make their own decisions on what to do with their bodies, their lives, and so on? It's a two way street, or a multiplayer game - it goes both ways. Your misconceptions also blind you lula.
You may not like homosexuality, or atheism, or abortion - but they're a way of life. They are people, and why not instead of crusading against it - be compassionate? Why reach out to strike, when you can just as easily reach out to hug? You folks (an others, not just the religious...) seem to think that it is...your duty, to make things as they "should" be. You fail to see the world as it is, imo.
The end result of all this "This is right, that is wrong," or "I'm right, you're wrong," etc....Chaos, disorder, etc. The solution? Be mindful, and to each their own - respect their rights, respect their choices/decisions and individuality.
Think about it, when you go out and do the things you do to fight homosexuality - you're not going after a thing, but a person, any person that is homosexual. Likewise, when someone comes after christianity...don't you feel they're attacking you? You, are a Christian/catholic, that's who you are - it's a part of you. Many homosexuals feel that way; they want to live their lives as they see fit. (Some, oddly enough are christians, et al.)
Point in case lula: What you see, when you speak of the "gay agenda," is not the entire gay populace.
Or the very idea that there is a 'higher' to anything is not rational.
What darkness KFC? What blindness? I see the evils of the world, and I cannot stand them. I do not abide evil or it's lesser minions. Does that mean I am in darkness? Or, that I am evil? I beg to differ.
*bites tongue*
KFC, that's according to you and your belief set. Likewise, ignorance of the world and what it is, and what encompasses it and makes it - is also not wise. I believe a wise man once said, "To know the world and all it is and has become; to know all its pieces and wonders, seems prudent. Only then can you value and cherish His work."
Addendum:
Lula, we were talking about existance and all recently on another thread. I wanted to add a quote to the discussion, because I find it very apt.
"We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.”
The man is right. Setting aside, for a moment, where we were - Your thoughts, what your mind (and heart) says about life, and son on...do they not make the world, or at least...your world? That's what I'm talking about when it comes to others beliefs. While there is the world as a whole...our existance, our world...is largely based of of our thoughts/beliefs, of which their are countless varieties.
On the contrary. When it comes to creation...just as you claim that there is none higher than God, that your God is the alpha and omega and created the world. What if, say, that your belief in spontaneous creation...was without a God? It's logical.
Precisely
Yes, KFC, this is so very, very important. To any and all who truly want to know God, they need only to reach out and call Him. Say a simple prayer. And not if, but when He responds, for them be open...in other words, don't harden your heart.
are you serious Lucas? You think JW's coming to your door is the same as the homosexuals invaded everything? Not even close.
When was the last JW parade marching down your street? When was the last time you saw JW's appealing to the Supreme Court to force us to do anything? When was the last time you saw textbooks in school change to say that the JW agenda was as normal and cohesive as mainstream religion.....and you have to believe it to be true? When was the last JW programming you saw on tv in comparison to all the homosexual stuff in our face now? When was the last time you heard of any hate crime bills encacted for the benefit of the JW's?
Yesterday a friend who is a nurse at a very large hospital found out that there was a problem with a co-worker. She has worked with this gay guy for over five years and they always got along. My friend is a strong Christian but she never was unkind to him and they were considered friendly. Then one day this guy who we'll call Will went off on her because of something she didn't do right like change the bed properly or make sure a room was clean. So Will went to the big boss and complained about her. When pressed by the big boss, who thought this was all quite strange, Will made a comment about her harrassment of him being gay. When pressed even more Will said that when he first came to work there (5 years ago) my friend asked his sexual preference. So the big boss asked Will if he would like to press charges. After much discussion Will decided he really didn't want to.
My friend went ballistic when she heard this. It was not true, none of it. Her boss believed her. She was actually crying. The big boss told her that she was going to have to apologize anyway and say that she was sorry if she offended him, which she did when they got together the next day. But she never did offend. She had no choice but to apologize for something she never did. The big boss said to her privately you don't mess with gays and you don't mess with blacks.
That's where we're going right now. And that's not even close to comparing with the JW's.
You make it sound like there's some war going on.
Your point? Apparently you don't like homosexuals practicing their freedom of speech. You can't have it bothe ways KFC, either you support their right to do such, or you don't.
Actually, none of the textbooks I had in high school (minus, science, math, etc.) talked about homosexuality, none. (I should know, I still have them all - heck, I even went through them to double check) They did; however, talk about religion, and in a very positive light. Hmm, must just be a case of my school being the way it is.
Unfortunately, what you get is a small sampling. None of my teachers ever told me I had to believe a certain way, what they did was teach us the basics: math, reading, writing, critical thinking, etc. You're either speaking absurdly, or using a small sample - a case here or there - to justify your points.
And? You still have a choice KFC.
A. Gay's expressing their freedom of speech/assembly? -- Close the blinds or walk away.
B. Textbooks in your highschool not sitting with you right? -- Talk to the school or enroll your child in a private school. Also, it can be done, it just depends on your priorities, on what is important to you.
C. Something on TV you don't like? -- Change the channel, I do whenever I (rarely) watch TV
D. Don't think there is a hate crime bill for religious folks? Setting aside the fact that a very large portion of the world is religious - so it would be like saying that we need a bill for the color red, to protect it from...red. Not saying it's silly, but the likely hood of any christian attacking a christian or such...is kinda nill. It's comparing apples to oranges. Sorry, but constitution already deals with that KFC.
This world is not your world to make to your liking or rules - it is a world where we all have to learn to live together, like it or not. That's the way the world is.
As for your friend:
I'm sorry that she (as you claim) didn't do it. I admit, it seems suspicious that the man waited so long, and the Boss' bias is also in question. (I mean, if you're managing something...you really shouldn't be biased...when you walk in the door, it is time to put your managers hat on - period.)
Still, if she did do what he claimed...then she did it. I don't know her, so I can't say much beyond that.
Also: What business is it of your friend to know someone's orientation? Why is it wrong to be offended by someone's comments (if it happened)?
Face it KFC, it goes both ways...example. You have the religoius who get offended by gays, and vice versa.
Also, KFC, would you mind addressing the rest of my comments; I've addressed all of yours. Thanks.
Oh, and something I found intersting...
"The current hate crime law does protect people of different races, national origins and religions. But it does not protect people on the basis of four other criteria: gender, sexual orientation, sexual identity and disability."
Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_LGBT-related_hate_crime_law_in_the_United_States.svg
There it shows that a decent gap between sexual orientation/identity, and hate crime legislation. That being said, I will agree that the legislation they're trying to get through should be carefully worded.
Sorry, Lucas but all I see you doing here is pushing buttons. I'm not interested. Good debates and thoughtful responses, great. But that's not what I'm getting from you lately.
You're so blind and subjective I don't even know where to start. It's so obvious how you're going to answer it's not even worth my time to speak with you honestly. You don't have one objective bone in your body. Do you know that?
No matter what I say you will always take the contrary approach. For instance I just told you an honest story and yet you reply with this?
you automatically go for the gay guy's side? Automatically. I just got done telling you she never said anything about his orientation yet you ask "what business is it of your friend to know someone's orientation???????
*shakes head*.....I'd rather talk to a brick wall Lucas.
I honestly don't think you're taking any time to digest what is being written and what you're saying. You're way too quick on the draw to write something, you're not even paying attention to what you're saying. It's getting more and more obvious.
Of course I am, and like I said:
Just because I don't agree with you head to foot doesn't mean I'm not taking any time.
KFC, my mo is that if i don't know anything about someone, then i can't say much about them save my observations. Even then, I willingly admit that I could be wrong.
Again, I will state it...I don't know the person, and it does seem suspicious. That being said, due to my nature, I am just not going to take someone's side in a dispute from someone's comments on it.
As for the questions, it was to open up discussion. My bad, when I'm curious I ask questions.
Normally that's because you and I believe differently...
Buahahahahahaha!
Pfft, look who's talking KFC; Pot meet Kettle. Granted, I will admit that I am skeptical and not objective when it comes to some things.; however, I would have to say...when it comes to most things...I'm much more than you are.
So really...meet the kettle.
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