Edit: Ok everone, it looks like the Great Shink Crisis is over. I would like to thank The Undying for his help. Now the rest of you can get back to the debate here. And if anyone sees Shink point me his way; the hunt is not yet over! Send out the Cylon armies to help find Shink!
Will since things at my Halo vs Star Wars thread have come to a stop for at least now, I thought this would be interesting.
Now some ground rules I hope will keep this a bit civil: Everything for both sides MUST be canon. No insulting either side( jokes from modified quots from games, books and TV episodes are ok). No wanking, no Q will snap his fingers and destroy the Covenant and Halo rings, I don't watch much Trek but I know enough: Q and his people will be the first to grab the mega size bag of popcorn for the show. No Borg wanking, if the Borg are so powerful than why can't they conquer about 150 planets? And no wanking the Master Chief, Flood, Forerunner tech and anything I forgot. I want this to be as fair and civil as possible.
Now lets go with a timeline of mid-TNG for ST and the end of the First Battle of Reach in Halo. Should that be a good timeline?
I suggest that if you do not know much about either side to read up on them.
Now! Let the battle begin!
no frieken idea... i have to assume that ultimately the physical form of the borg would win....the nanites spread endlessly throughout biomass(except for 8472...haxx0rz) but it ultimately comes down to a contest of the wills between the queen and the gravemind. my money's on the queen.
no frieken idea... i have to assume that ultimately the physical form of the borg would win....the nanites spread endlessly throughout biomass(except for 8472...haxx0rz) but it ultimately comes down to a contest of the wills between the queen and the gravemind. my money's on the queen. I would't put my money on it, the Forerunner had nearly 300 years of time to study the Flood and the Flood just shruged off whatever the Forerunner hit them with until the Array fired. GS did day the Forerunner used up ever other option they had before firing the Array. Here are the things the Forerunner did to stop the Flood we know of besides the Array off the top of my head. 1. Destroy the surface of worlds to take out all Flood on world. 2. Blow up the local star with a Uncontroled-Slipspace-Rupture to make it go Nova or Super Nova. 3. Send a super AI against the Gravemind that the Gravemind turned against the Forerunner which truly turned the tide against the Forerunner. That's all I can remember at the moment. But it said in one of the H3 terminals that the Flood had taken at least a million worlds, if I remember correctly. But it would be one of the more epic fights of all time for sure.
I would't put my money on it, the Forerunner had nearly 300 years of time to study the Flood and the Flood just shruged off whatever the Forerunner hit them with until the Array fired. GS did day the Forerunner used up ever other option they had before firing the Array.
Here are the things the Forerunner did to stop the Flood we know of besides the Array off the top of my head.
1. Destroy the surface of worlds to take out all Flood on world.
2. Blow up the local star with a Uncontroled-Slipspace-Rupture to make it go Nova or Super Nova.
3. Send a super AI against the Gravemind that the Gravemind turned against the Forerunner which truly turned the tide against the Forerunner.
That's all I can remember at the moment. But it said in one of the H3 terminals that the Flood had taken at least a million worlds, if I remember correctly. But it would be one of the more epic fights of all time for sure.
i got the answer to this. St does /god in console and wins...f*ck!ng seriously...... all this bullshit they make up in halo....
No God-like races such as Q; they are off limits because they are an unfair advanage for ST, that is why I said no Q in the OP. And what do you mean BS in Halo? Do you mean the Forerunner losing to the Flood? The Flood wiped out a planet of 200 BILLION in less then 24 hours, only 2.6 million escaped if I remember correctly. Since we never fought the Flood on a galactic scale and only a small infection at that, I would say we do good in game seeing as the Flood nearly wiped out a race that builds thing that make Death Stars look like fire crackers.
Sova, you're eternally retarded, accept it and move on. The longer you continue spouting nonsense about Star Trek, the more I want to retroactively abort you. I'm more than enough of an "angry white man" already, it's bad for civilization to continue depressing me.
Star Trek version of the Forerunners.
T'kon Empire
Well, one of them anyway, I'd hate to upset you with the knowledge that there's another godlike race in Star Trek that can manipulate the galaxy at will.
Watch the shows or shut the hell up. Please.
Non-sense about ST? I do my best to make sure my facts are correct, but when we look at the bombing of the Founder world we do not in the limited amount of viewing time see 30 percent of the entire crust go poof. Maybe the Sensor Officer meant 30 percent in that area was gone, who knows. I am just saying we do not see that and early on a computer said that the crust would be stripped away in one hour. I am only disputing the 30 of of entire planet/crust gone in one volley part, not the entire thing.
And I have seen the epsiode with the T'kon Empire, all I said was outside of a few races like them the Dyson Sphere builders, and then wasn't there a race with city ships in VOY? You did not upset me with this. And read my post more carefully next time, I'm not trying to insult you, just saying that outside a few non-Q-races not much could go toe-to-toe with the Forerunner and have a chance. I would say the T'kon Empire and the Dyson Sphere builders could fight and have a chance at winning, at worse it would be a tie for them.
but halo doesnt get forerunner's...they're extinct
I was just showing how will the Flood did against the Forerunner was all.
And, what BS-besides most of the UNSC ground weapons, were you talking about?
I wish they had made the UNSC more like GDI from C&C3. Now that would have been better.
yeah seems like the fighters at the end of the first halo 2 mission were carpet bombing with nukes, given the size of the hole they made in the carrier.
The first nukes used in WWII were carried by bombers to their targets, and Longswords are the size of 747s. I don't see anything wrong there.
Halo wins. Hands down. Covie #s+UNSC SMACs+Master Chief&Spartan-IIs/-IIIs+Flood= unbeatable force of DHUUM!!!
Let us agree on these things.
A weapon cannot hit something that is beyond its range.
A projectile cannot hit a target that is faster than it.
A weapon that is slower, and is less maneouvrable than its target cannot hit its target.
These are independent of how powerful the weapon *actually* is. Doesn't matter how powerful your weapon is, if you can't hit your target, then therefore your weapon cannot deal any damage.
Are halo ships faster than Star Trek ships?
Do Halo weapons outrange Star Trek weapons?
Do Halo weapons and ships have higher accelerations than Star Trek weapons and ships?
As far as I see it,
Speed:
Sublight:Beats me. How fast is the fastest ship in Halo? If it's not faster than 0.5c, or 150 000 km/s, or 540 000 000 km/h, then there shouldn't be any arguments that Halo universe ships are faster than Star Trek ships (at least in sublight). Supralight: The fastest ST ship would be Warp 9.9, or 21 000 times speed of light according to the new curve, or 970 times according to the old curve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive#Warp_velocities) Do Halo universe ships go faster? 970c = 2.65 ly/d, and 21000 = 57 ly/d.
Range:The longest ranged halo weapon, the plasma weapon (range ~3 million km), cannot outrange a photon torpedo (range 8 million km). The most powerful weapons, the super MAC and the energy projectors, have ranges below 100 000 km. Comparable Trek weapons are the phaser, rated at 300 000km. Therefore, Star Trek weapons outrange the comparable relevant Halo weapons.
Acceleration:Inertial dampers essentially means that Star Trek ships have infinite maneouvrability (ie, they can reverse course at impulse 180 degrees almost instantaneously). That works out to millions of g's of acceleration. Do Halo ships have this kind of acceleration?
Destructive power of the weapons themselves are highly debatable. But from the preliminary analysis, Halo ships are slower and shorter ranged; a recipe for disaster in almost every military case. The only real thing to debate here is whether or not halo ships can actually resist the damage that Trek ships can dish out. The straight up tactical disadvantage is already really bad news, even if you are more heavily armed and better protected (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Carrhae).
well, the thing is, can a Photon Torpedo be ACCURATELY fired overa distance of 8 million km?
Range on its own can make things SOUND different, but what is the comparative YIELD (destructive power) and ACCURACY (chance to hit a target and do damage) that these weapons have. If Plasma Weapons are more accurate and can give a greater yield percentage over the Photon Torpedo, then it is the more effective weapon, despite the fact that it is shorter ranged.
Likewise, the velocity of the projectiles in question is important. Why? Well, there's the chance that the projectiles could be INTERCEPTED and DESTROYED by Fighter cover or by shielding/active intercept defenses (such as UNSC 50mm AAA cannons).
Then there's the fact that, while UNSC ships have no shields, they carry MAC guns, and SMACs are orbital stations. Granted, they turn very slowly, but at a fairly good distance, and with plenty of room, could a Trek ship evade a SMAC round?
There's also the fact that Slipspace, which is used for FTL travel by the Halo ships, could be used OFFENSIVELY to quickly close to a favorable range. The destructive power of a weapon is important, its accuracy is important, but so is its range. If Photon Torpedoes have a 50-60% chance to hit their target and produce a yield on the order of a couple of gigajoules, and Plasma Weapons have a 70-90% hit chance and produce a yield of only 2 million MJ, then the Plasma Weapons are actually at an advantage. While on that note, there's also the recycle rate of a weapon. A Plasma Weapon that can fire 2 times/second and puts out 2 million MJ of damage/shot willl inflict 240,000,000 MJ of damage to a target over the course of 60 seconds.
In contrast, if a Photon Torpedo can fire only 1 time every 5 seconds, and fires for 60 seconds, then it will inflict 60 EDIT: 30 GJ of damage. That's quite a bit more than a Plasma Weapon, but factoring in ammunition, that's 30 Photon Torpedoes that have been fired, while a Covenant ship armed with numerous Plasma Weapons can likely charge them off of a reactor system. Ergo, the Covies can have essentially unlimited ammunition supplies, while Photon Torpedoes I suspect have a limited capacity.
EDIT: I forgot to add this part- the above yields, recycle rates, and accuracy statistics are pure speculation on my part.
Of course accuracy is important. But so long as you can deal SOME damage, then that tactical advantage of superior range and higher speed can be overwhelming. As the Romans found out in the battle of Carrhae, it doesn't matter if you're nearly impervious to arrow fire and only 1 out of 20 arrows deal any damage. The fact that they couldn't close with the Parthian horse archers meant that they suffered death by a thousand pricks. It didn't really matter that their armour was better, or that their swords could have killed any of the horse archers in one shot. It didn't matter that they would have beaten them if the battle was hand to hand. It didn't even matter that the Romans had the Parthians outnumbered 3 to 1. They couldn't stop the archers from pelting them with arrows because they couldn't catch them, and so the Romans died.
Slipstream, good for the covenant. They slipstream closer... and the Star Trek ships warp out further, to hold the range open. The question then is... are Halo universe ships *faster*, and do they have higher accelerations than trek ships? If not, then they can *never* close the range, short of using better tactics... and we could also say that the Trek ships use good tactics to avoid closing the range... and... nothing comes of talking about tactics, since both sides can use it.
Light speed point defense makes sense, like lasers. Because they travel so much faster, and require much less energy, they can actually mount a respectable point defence. But point defence in the form of fancy gatlings/machine guns spitting hundreds and thousands of metal slugs into the air/space? It'll work on missiles now, but against relativistic, accelerating bodies such as ST torpedoes and HALO plasma weapons, they're just a waste of time. I can go through the math that shows why, but think of it this way; a 0.5c weapon will close the range so fast, it is like trying to see and swat down a bullet with your hands.
Well, I've done that; I am THE ONE. There is also the fact of amunition capacities, and a weapons yield. For all we know, Phasers are pinpricks to UNSC warships, Photon Torpedoes are solid smacks to the face, while a SMAC will annihilate the USS Enterprise and Covie Energy Projectors kill Borg Cubes.
For all we know, a Covenant energy projector will do squat to ST ships and a photon torpedo will punch out a Covenant battlecruiser in one shot. You can't do a meaningful comparison that way.
Covie energy projectors *will* kill a borg cube... and only one borg cube. After that, they adapt.
PS: That stuff on point defense applies to ships too. You can't hit a ship that's faster and more maneouvrable than what you're trying to hit it with, except at VERY short ranges. A SMAC projectile travels both slower than ships in ST and is totally non-maneouvrable; thus it has no chance of hitting a target at any respectable range that has the slightest randomness in acceleration, or is trying to avoid it.
PPS: Some numbers to think about: The energy required to accelerate a single SMAC projectile to 0.4c is equivalent to buring 137 000 kg of antimatter at 100% efficiency, with 100% energy capture, and 100% energy conversion into accelerating the projectile. Or converting 39 million kg of hydrogen to helium through fusion. I find it hard to believe that a planet could supply those energy requirements. Of course, if it *is* true, then a single SMAC projectile could smash a ST ship to bits... if only it could hit one.
[Quote] For all we know, a Covenant energy projector will do squat to ST ships and a photon torpedo will punch out a Covenant battlecruiser in one shot. You can't do a meaningful comparison that way. [Unquote]
Will I well do some math here on Covenant plasma torpedos at full power (aka, no Forerunner relics etc. forcing them to hold back) at Jericho VII.
Glassing of Jericho VII, Prologue of Halo: The Fall of Reach, P. 8.
What we know about the scene:
The Master Cheif "watched the planet for an hour" from the UNSC Resolute's bridge. During that time: "Three dozen Covenant ships--big ones, destroyers and cruisers--winked into view in the system. They were sleek, looking more like sharks than star craft. Their lateral lines brightened with plasma--then discharged and rained fire down upon Jericho VII."
"The planet's lakes, rivers, and oceans vaporized."
"Fields and forests were glassy smooth and glowing red-hot in patches."
We also know that "By tomorrow, the atmosphere would boil away, too." But we don't know the exact timeframe other then being around 12 hours given what we know from the other pages before this one.
Calc: We know the water in the oceans were vapourised in an hour by three dozen ships to ferive a firepower output value for these ships.
General assumptions: Jericho is similar to Earth (likely given that it is refer to as a "paradise") and so has around the same mass of oceans as Earth: 1.35 x 10^21kg. Average ocean temperature is 20 degrees celcius.
Low end assumptions: we well only take into account the effects of the attack on the oceans. Any effect on the lakes, rivers, fields, and forest mentioned are not included (so the actual value should be higher than this). The glassing took the full hour (so we ignore the time taken for the Covenant ships to reach the planet).
Data: latent heat vaporisation of water: 2260 J g^-1 =2260000 J kg^-1
Specific heat capacity of water: 4.1813 J g^-1 K^-1 = 4181.3 J kg ^-1
Calculations: total energy required to elevate 1kg of water from 20 degrees C to 100 degrees C, and then vapourise: 2260000 + 4181.3 * 80 = 2.5945 x 10^6 J kg^-1
Total mass of water in the oceans is 1.35 x 10^21kg
Total energy expended to vapourise oceans: 1.35 x 10^21 * 2.5945 x 10^6 = 3.50 x 10^27 J per hour per 36 ships. So power output = 2.70 x 10^22 W per ship.
This is equal to 6.45 x 10^12 tons of TNT per second, or 6,45 Teratons of TNT per second, LOW END, for large Covenant ships.
If a Covenant cruiser has 5 Plasma turrets and it takes a minute to charge that should be around 77 Teratons per torp. Yeah, I don't think the Feds have anything on the Covenant high end.
[Quote] Covie energy projectors *will* kill a borg cube... and only one borg cube. After that, they adapt.[Unquote]
They may be able to withstand several more shots after adapting but their still not going to last long.
[Quote] PS: That stuff on point defense applies to ships too. You can't hit a ship that's faster and more maneouvrable than what you're trying to hit it with, except at VERY short ranges. A SMAC projectile travels both slower than ships in ST and is totally non-maneouvrable; thus it has no chance of hitting a target at any respectable range that has the slightest randomness in acceleration, or is trying to avoid it.[Unquote]Agreed on the SMAC, still going to be a major problem though when you have dozens of the things attacking. [Quote] PPS: Some numbers to think about: The energy required to accelerate a single SMAC projectile to 0.4c is equivalent to buring 137 000 kg of antimatter at 100% efficiency, with 100% energy capture, and 100% energy conversion into accelerating the projectile. Or converting 39 million kg of hydrogen to helium through fusion. I find it hard to believe that a planet could supply those energy requirements. Of course, if it *is* true, then a single SMAC projectile could smash a ST ship to bits... if only it could hit one.[Unquote]
Yeah, I know, but then you see dozens of other Sci-fi universe that are also mismatched for the amount of power.
And some new data on the UNSC NOVA bomb that just brought the boom level up to...good bye everything.
A 2km moon, and the bomb is only 5000 km away for this low end calc.
Apply the inverse squared law: Source Enrgy / (4 * Pi * R^2) where the radius is the distance from the source to the range we want to look at,
x/ (4 * 3.14195... * 5,000^2) = 4 MT (or 0.000004 TT) per square kilometer to fragment said 2km moon which needs 8 MT to be fragmented.
x = 1,256 TT... still in teh Petaton range.
High end assumptions have it at half the distance to our moon from the planet and at 1 Exaton which is roughly enough to fragment a 2.5km moon. It is most likely still more than this. A LOT MORE.
Covenant Plasma Torpedos also have a 9+ light second range at a velocity of half of c.
Do I sense another Atomic Rocket site traverser in GrandAdmiralSova117?
There's also the fact that, how fast do ST ships move in normal space (w/o warp drive)?
What is the reaction efficiency of their antimatter warhead Photon Torpedoes?
The main problem with AM as a weapon is getting as much of it to react as possible. 2 Bricks of AM& Matter (1 each) slammed into each other will NOT completely annihilate each other.
Dropping said brick onto a planet will completely annihilate the brick and anything it happens to hit.
The yield of the MAC gun- K=0.5*M*V/\2, where K=energy (Joules) M=mass (kg), and V=velocity (m/s). So-
K=0.5*600,000 kg*(30,000 m/s /\2) K= 2.7x10e14 Joules, or around several Kilotons.
Now for the SMAC- the SMAC requires a different, as it is hurling a projectile at relativistic (greater than 0.14c, 14% light speed)- K=((1/sqrt(1-(P/\2)))-1)*M*C/\2, where- K=energy (Joules), M=Mass (kg), P=% of lightspeed, and C=lightspeed.
So, K=((1/sqrt(1-(0.4/\2)))-1)*3,000,000kg*9e16, K=2.4x10e22, or NEARLY SIX TERATONS. 1 Teraton=1000 Gigatons.
The results for the SMAC MIGHT be incorrect, and even the one for the MAC gun. The equations were performed assuming that the masses given for the projectiles were presented as metric tons, so these are likely highly optimistic (but still valid for comparison I think).
[Quote] Do I sense another Atomic Rocket site traverser in GrandAdmiralSova117?[Unquote]
Yep.
[Quote] There's also the fact that, how fast do ST ships move in normal space (w/o warp drive)?[Unquote]
If I remember corretly it is around 80,000 km per second. [Quote]The yield of the MAC gun- K=0.5*M*V/\2, where K=energy (Joules) M=mass (kg), and V=velocity (m/s). So-K=0.5*600,000 kg*(30,000 m/s /\2) K= 2.7x10e14 Joules, or around several Kilotons.[Unquote]
Will I would prefer to throw that 30 kps quote out since it doesn't fit with the rest of the Halo-verse canon.
So let us look at the other distances and speeds from the novels:
“three thousand kilometers off the Commonwealth’s prow”
“Distance three hundred thousand kilometers,”
“one hundred thousand kilometers away.”
“Distance to enemy ship six thousand kilometers”
“Covenant cruiser is only two hundred thousand kilometers away”
“Get us closer to that moon-sized chuck of stone, twenty thousand kilometers to port”
“Traveling at one hundred million kilometers an hour”
“Beta Gabriel,” she said. “Fourteen million kilometers. Practically next door.”
And not to mention you have a UNSC destroyer round a planet in a short timeframe, in combat.
So, we know from the books the ranges and speeds Halo ships fight at. Now we have three issues with the 30 kps figure:
1. It would be mathematically impossible for a projectile moving at 30 kps to hit a Covenant ship, just moving in a straight line, at a hundred million kilometers per hour, (or moving any of the distances listed above within short timeframes in which they occur in the novels), unless the Covenant Ship Masters are so retard as to be heading directly towards the UNSC ship. However, we know that this is not the case from basically every canon space battle, and MAC round hit most of the time they are mentioned.
2. MAC rounds do not seem to do more damage even when the ship firing it is moving at high speed. If the 30kps figure is correct, the MAC round should do one million times more damage at something around “one hundred million kilometers an hour’ as compared to being relatively stationary.This is never seen, and MAC rounds do around the same amount of damage whether the ship is moving backwards, forwards, or relatively stationary. Thus, the speed of the MAC round must be quite a bit greater than these movement speeds.
3. With the acceleration necessary to take a ship regularly to combat speeds seen in Halo space battles, and the ranges commonly used in said space battles, how can Covenant ships be hit by projectiles that take several minutes to reach them, according to the 30kps figure? Covenant ships can clearly detect and dodge MAC rounds given enough time (which is implied to be, incidentally, not in the multiple-minutes-range) as shown in the battle with the Commonwealth (will it tried to dodge the Commonwealth’s round) and over Reach against an SMAC volley (also possible said ship may have had an AI given we see one on a ship of the same size in FS).
Yep, we really see MAC rounds doing a million times more damage because the ship is moving forwards, and we really see MAC rounds taking five minutes to hit Covenant ships, while said ships can’t even accelerate at 0.0011 G to dodge said rounds, and we really see retarded Covenant Ship Masters deliberately heading straight for UNSC ships at high velocity so that the MAC rounds can hit them and do damage by act of plot because otherwise it would be a mathematical impossibility.
So, to logically accept one, single dubious 30 kps figure mentioned once, we would have to throw away the entire weight of evidence from every single second of space battles in the Halo novels, in favor of one outlier.
One last thing on the 30 kps figure is that from what I have heard Halo Wars retconned ship MAC rounds to true "fractions of c". Don't know though since I don't have, just what I've heard.
Ok, if I understand this topic correctly we are to use lore/tech from Star Trek or Halo and "battle" them.
Well....Star Trek TNG has Q, and I do see you said "no Q", but common he IS a part of Star Trek. So Star Trek wins with a little snap of the fingers.....lol sorry. Halo just can't do shit against a god who can do absolutly anything from time travel to turing Master Cheif into a frog....
So this "battle" is over IMO. You can't just leave out something because it will without a doubt win.
But if we had to leave out Q, we all know The Borg would destroy the Halo universe. But again, you want us to leave them out. So it just sounds to me you are perfectly aware that Star Trek would win in the senario.
Besides, even if we did leave out Q, The Borg, etc. Star Trek has come across so many gods, and destructiv powers the soldiers of Halo would wet themselvs. Hell, the enity from "Encounter at Farpoint" would do just fine and win the whole thing.
Star Trek has Decades of history behind it. Star Trek Wins.....period.
I would like to be a monitor, activate all halo's and pown you all.
Furthermore, in halo, things are cool. The pillar of Autumn looks sweet, de elites have split chins and have a code of behaviour wich extends further than just being violent. (I prefer elites above clingons or brutes any time) A federation starship just looks so lame. I mean, it's a flat disc with engines attached to it for crying out loud. Dont get me wrong, I like star trek (its universe is very well made, big and detailed), but it lacks the style halo has imo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02LgdXVkXgM
GrandAdmiralSova117-
Well, the site I got the 30 kips figure was the Halopedia site.
Though I do have to say that when you note what you did (which is news to me), 30 kips is a bit stretched. However, what do you think of my SMAC calculations?
[Quote] GrandAdmiralSova117-Well, the site I got the 30 kips figure was the Halopedia site.[Unquote]
Halopedia some managed to get something from the books right?? Will the 30 kps quote is from TFoR but the entire book plus the others are completely against it. I don't really like to use TFoR to much since it was rushed from Nylund's head in about six weeks. [Quote] Though I do have to say that when you note what you did (which is news to me), 30 kips is a bit stretched. However, what do you think of my SMAC calculations?[Unquote]
They look spot on to me. Though I must say it scares me that someone at Halopedia, (aka the site of 12 year olds from hell) managed to get the math right. Halopedia doing the math right for is a sure sign that the world will indeed end in 2012.
On the issue of the Q: let us just assume this is one of their test for the Federation allies etc.etc so they will stay out. And the Borg are allowed, though lets just leave aside the *snap fingers and poof* beings etc.etc that are just overpowered. This is overall just a battle between the normal races of the ST galaxy and the Covenant.
Though I wonder what the Forerunner would do in the ST galaxy? Considering the Keyship is really just a heavily armed transport you have to wonder what a real Forerunner battleship is.
The Keyship, operating on just a small fraction of the power from its engines was able to swat aside entire Pre-Covenant Elite fleets without breaking a sweet. Considering Covenant tech hasn't really improved over thousands of years and the Keyship just laughed off enemy fleets with a fraction of its true power is just scary.
Well I'm going to start thinking up a battle plan for the Covenant.
cool.
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