There is no doubt that after playing both characters (I only play assassins), I can safetly say that using UB with the spit is too damn easy while playing a Melee Rook with the Hammer Slam is pointless.
First and foremost, spit always hits, Hammer barely does even with the boulder roll. This automatically gives spit a huge advantage since it's a guranateed full damage while missing with the hammer slam results in something you might as well auto attack. The only advantage the rook has with the Hammer slam is slightly cheaper mana cost.
What makes the spit even more scary is it actually deals more damage then the TB fireball and has the same cool down, although obviously less range (but let's be honest, late game UB has no problem chewing someone's face off at melee range).
Considering one of UB's weakenesses is supposed to be "range", it makes no sense to make his only ranged attack to be one of the strongest in the game. It also doesn't make a bit of sense to put the hammer slam to have such horrible damage based on the long cast time and low "accuracy". Unless Stardock wants all Rook sot use towers to become useful, this should be changed.
Err, I dunno how people have trouble with hammer slam. Looking at boulder roll, the stun time is 1.5 seconds at level 1. Rook's slam takes 1.5 seconds to cast at all levels. Thus, slam becomes easier and easier to line up as time goes on. When you then consider that Slam is capable of hitting multiple DG's and their minions, it becomes amazing.
Well I reread the original post and I agree with him to an extent. He said
The problem is that towers are fantastic and going with a tower build still lets you max out boulder roll, hammer slam, god strength, and independent weapons... so people who are insisting on skipping towers are doing so just to pick up either stats or structural transfer, which to me means they're gimping themselves on purpose to be different and there's no real reason to support that play.
There is such an item sadly it costs 250 Oh noes! Doom!
This is assuming everyone hits level 20. Which almost never happens.
By sacrificing towers, you can keep your boulder roll, hammer slam, god's strength, and archers in top shape for your level all at once.
learn to play better maybe?
if u hate spit so much, theres this favor item u can get and its called "symbol of purity" if i remember correctly. that will make max lvl spit only do TB's lvl 1 fireball dmg. May save you quite a lot of hassle.
But hammer slam isnt a self stacking dot. most people play cataract and you start with a -15% cd flag, thats like 5 second spits or so. if ub was against rook, spit walk away come back spit again since it so happens to stack on itself and your hella screwed at level 1 thats 900 damage, then AA's on top of that and/or a teamate, or you can just keep spitting and itll die, staff of renewal on top of that or poisoned dagger and your just dead.
Spit even has a shorter cooldown, at least bring hammerslam to the damage it used to have or give it a 1.2-1.0 second cast
If someone hammerslams im pretty sure people just say "lol" and walk behind him, even if you boulder roll its not really viable until level like 10 where you get a longer stun, so you need 2 cooldowns to hit with your main skill, thats pretty cool. Imo, hammerslam needs a buff or make the snare like 25% at all times, not having to wait until level 15, granted you even get that far for the 50% snare
I use Hammer Slam at all levels. Working with the Hammer without any stun abilities from yourself or your enemies just requires a good situation-evaluation and prediction. Luck and stupid enemies help too of course
Well right now i'm trying Rock, and I have to admit, this char is wonderfull !! I have no idea why can't you hit target with boulder roll + hammer slam. I have like 90% successfull hits (just where I wanted). As soon as you get boulder roll lvl 2, I really don't know how can u EVER miss the target.
To fight versus beast there is great tactic. Set up 4 towers in a line (if you like hammer slam build, 4 towers won't destroy this build anyway), and always stay behind those towers. If you see beast is trying to split you, just move back. When beast is right on towers, stun him with boulder roll and instantly move in his direction (you will probably not reach him, but your archers/tower of light/trebuchet should do the job - if not kill him, make him run to crystal, so you won that little battle). As soon as you master this technique, you will see even when beast reach and splits you, he will obviously lose MUCH more hp that you. Oh, and if the beast if smart enought, to not go into your towers, just push tower line forward step by step. Yeah, I know it takes a lot of mana, that's why i use 2 mana helmets in my rock build so i don't really have big mana problems when I fight like this. It's effective against any char, not only beast. Chars, that CAN make you some problems are Regulus (good Regulus is the pain in the ass), TB (ice build is the worst nightmare for rock) and Vampire/QoT/Oak/Sedna (ONLY FULL minions build, but you don't see those builds often). From all that chars build, you will see only well played Regulus often, so not many true counter-chars to deal with
Because anything with an interrupt is going to toss your salad, foul grasp, pentinance, pounce, TB's freeze thingy. not counting if they run or run behind you, itll actually hit half of the demigods, let alone be effective if they run through you. thats why level 2 roll is where the money is at
Hammerslam is perfectly viable at all levels, you just need a little practice with it. Things to practice:
theres nothing wrong with the current skills.
the only thing i would suggest in how to nerf spit would be to give it a .5 sec cast time. this would regulate:
- spitting then running- spitting and grasping, because really there's not much of a delay after spitting, allowing u to catch up to ur opponent quickly to melee the rest of his life out simultaneously as spit is degening him out. This also depends on the UB build at the time.
all i can say about hammer slam is ... TIMING
The opponents should be under the effects of roll at level 5+, meaning your slam's a free hit. At lower levels, your passives are so sweet that if you wait for the opponent to blow their interrupt before you slam, either you get a free slam off, or they end up losing health way too fast to stay in the fight. Remember that you're a tank, you've got time to spare.
Please don't fiddle with spit. The ability is fine as it is.
When people ask for Hammer Slam to be buffed, I think they forget that it deals 1700 damage at max level, more than a TB fireball or a sedna pounce. They forget, too, that UB's spit takes 10 seconds for its full effect to be unleashed, and is quite easily countered with priests/sedna/items when they ask that Spit be nerfed.
Personally I agree that Spit needs some kind of nerf, & gkrit's suggestion is so mild yet would do so much in that regard. Either that, or lower the dmg a bit to something reasonable relative to the fact that UB kicks ass in melee. Such huge ranged dmg (early game) on an already powerful melee DG just seems kinda out of place to me. Plus, there's literally no way to dodge it as far as I can tell, even with speed boots & running in opposite direction before spit leaves UB's mouth. I don't think .5 cast is unreasonable.
Venom Spit
= Same total damage as Hammer Slam at all levels+ Short cast time (difficult to interrupt/avoid/miss)+ Ranged+ Shorter cooldown than Hammer Slam- Most damage is dealt over time as debuff- Higher mana cost than Hammer Slam- No area effect damage (single target only)
Hammer Slam
= Same total damage as Venom Spit at all levels- Very long cast time (easy to interrupt/avoid/miss)- Short range- Longer cooldown than Venom Spit+ All damage is dealt immediately+ Lower mana cost than Venom Spit+ Area effect damage (both for low-damage radius and full damage)
Spit does get a static damage-over-time area effect at level 15 of course, but that's when Slam gets its slow debuff.
There're also other comparisons & contrasts between them that can't be quantified as well. For example:-Both are excellent tools for scaring people away.-Spit is better used for harassment while Slam is a bread-and-butter nuke.-Spit's much better in the early game before people get their health regen up, and Slam better later when you can stun people with Roll II and III (in fact at that point you'll be doing more damage than Spit with the combo and practically ensuring it will land, at cost of more mana).-Spit's great for wearing down buildings without taking damage, and Slam is great against creeps.
This is true. I find Roll II to mainly be better because there's virtually no chance of missing though whereas with Roll I you must be perfect. Also, if you have the timing perfect for Roll I, you can do when still a couple steps away with Roll II.
not to mention, you can hammerslam the aoe on yourself meaning if people move into you to dodge it, they get owned real quick
I've seen Rooks kill 2 DGs at the same time with a hammerslam. You just need to figure out the correct timing and predict where you opponent is going. Also like many others have said it's really dumb to compare just skills, you have to look at the entire DG skill set and stats to see if something is balanced or not. I can't count the times a Rook saved my ass with a boulder roll or how many times we absolutely destroyed a guy with a boulder roll + pounce/snipe/whatever + hammer slam combo.
Finally a lot of DGs can counter spit using a shield or whatever. The damage from the hammer slam on the other hand is instant and it will kill minions easily so harder to counter (especially after getting stunned).
i cant believe this thread is still going.
conclusion: leave both, they are fine.
I find problems dealing with a rook with any melee type. Usually I play EB with all the health/armour/regen bonuses as well as skills for regen, bite and minions. Any non-noob rook cleans me up easy unless I am many levels above them.
I end up getting hit with boulder then hammer slammed, then they've been using speed boots/divine and just run me down. If they don't use that, they just spam towers. So a two on two on the tournament ladder, usually results in me and teammate losing. I've not found a demigod that is a suitable counter. I've used UB and while it can cause them some nasty damage, they either potion it off or port to base. Torch bearer doesn't do sufficient damage at lower levels and apart from fireball they other skills require getting to close, and been low hp, basically any hit with hammer a few levels in will leave you all but dead.
Regulus is a fairly effective counter to rook, and tower rooks are quite soundly defeated by any minion build for a general. Fight the good fight!
You realize that they will have to change its name from Spit to Throw Up!
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