Something I've realized (we all know oak is already strong) is that when oak uses his shield. That target no longer gets HIT. It may say absorb or something but when using the heart of life it doesnt' interrupt it. I just had a game where i played against an oak who did this and with 6 seconds of shield some killer armor and me as torchbearer (low health) he was pretty much invincible. Either he could continue fighting even at 500 hp becuase shield then heart of life or he could run away in some of the most annoying circumstances. Through the entire game he died once. Killed over 5 people. (I got disconnected)
In my opinion here are the problems:
1) I doubt this was meant to happen.2) How do you kill someone who does this.3) Regardless of what you do it's impossible to prevent since shield is a nigh instant spell.4) Way too easy to get at 4k to set up.
Problems I had while fighting him:
1) As torchbearer all my damage was burst or close to it with AoE. Yet he leveled faster because he never had to run.2) As torchbearer my damage was all burst and when i came at him i easily took out 3/4 of his health with my spells yet he always regened back. And with cooldowns I had 10 seconds before I could damage him again but as oak he just kept pouring the steam on3) It happens WAY TOO EARLY all he needed was 4k and starting with 1k it isn't that hard. Almost instant invincibility. And didn't help one of my allies fed him a kill. He got on a few assists too and it wasn't too hard to get that money.4) 2 People couldn't even take him down he had wand of speed and boots of speed and ran behind towers.5) Later in the game when the money started getting high all he needed was armor and he had a ton of it. SO that 2000 hp he gets over 6 seconds turns into 6000 effective. It just became way too hard to stop him.5) Our towers couldn't stop him at all he just ran by then and killed us because at 800 health he still could survive the towers.
Now I know i'll get criticism saying "He sacrifices damage" or "He's more vulnerable early game" But the truth of the matter is all it took was 3 skill points so even if you followed the regular build it wouldn't be that hard to do this. And selling items you'd only need 5k worth of them so you wouldn't suffer anyway. Other criticism saying "have you tested this?" Well i haven't but it's a viable strategy that caused me to lose a game quite spectacularly. And one more thing "big deal he can only use it ever 45 seconds" yes but when you have a 35 second death counter he's only got 10 seconds outside of that. And even if you manage to kill him afterward he still comes back with his last stand and if you aren't already dead you will be then. Plus with 15% cooldown flag and 10% cooldown favor item that 45 goes down to around 33 and thats a lot stronger than before.
A thread is a group conversation and conversation evolves. It just doesn't stick purely on the one topic, it starts on one then progresses to another and another and in a long one it may appear like the original topic and what is currently being talked about aren't related but it originated from it. Look at your own comment, it has pretty much nothing to do with what xavior originally said but it was spurred from what SoFFact said. When me and SoFFacet wrote out posts, I don't think we didn't damaged the conversation or prevented anyone from talking about what Oak and HoL so I think, if anything, the thread gained from our contribution.
I think what SoFFacet mean't was that Xavior thought my reply was to do with his original post and questioned why i said it but it was directed at SoFFacet. SoFFacet could of been nicer.
I don't have much experience with 4vs4 and 5vs5 as Sedna, I mainly play 3vs3 but maybe focus on more HP and play more conservatively when outnumbered. Just by sticking near towers you are preventing them from pushing further and if they keep using their abilities on you and you can stay above a dangerous level it is there mana they are wasting.
You seem to be only thinking of end game level 20. Yes then it is insignificant but it gives a major boost mid game where 1800 is half your life. And yes healing happens a ton around the battlefield.
MY POINT ISNT THE AMOUNT OF HEALING IT'S WHEN YOU GET IT AND HOW YOU DON'T SACRIFICE ANYTHING TO GET THE HEALING.
I feel as if you just keep moving away from the main topic. Straying from OAK+HOL to Healing to comparing him to sedna to finally having a conversation mid post about sedna options to starting to insult me about how this post isn't mine.
So i know the post isn't mine. On the internet you cant own anything but you can at least be considerate and keep on topic. I've almost given up on this post just because you can't stay on main topic. I'm not talking about priests. I'm not talking about comparing oak to anything. I'm talking about one thing and one thing only. The combination of HOL+SHIELD. I'm not dissagreeing that there isn't other things that are overpowered. But the things that are are given to a wide variety.
Priests can be stacked with this ability. And you of all people should know every little bit helps. Well this is a lot of a bit and it is insanely helpful mid game. Even if it is usless endgame you can sell it off for 80% of the value and get something more armor based.
I know 600 hp can be a lot. I play torchbearer and begining of the game i struggle staying above 1500 most of the time even using potions and the such. My entire strategy revolves around HOL and healing. Your accusing me of not knowing anything about healing
The main point i am trying to make is the fact that Oak's shield and hol can only be prevented by 2 tactics and that it is insanely helpful midgame which in my mind is most important.. Erebus's level 15 stun which increases cooldown and a full fledged ice torchbearer. Now this seems pretty specific for a strategy and it since torchbearer early game has barely any health Oak has no trouble there and end game HoL shield isn't as useful which is the point in the game where torchbearer really shines. And i don't see erebus dishing out the damage for which oak even needs to activate shield. Either oak is already dead or ererbus will be. Plus tahts level 15 and thats were oak doens't need HoL as much.
I play mostly TB (fire) lately and I regularly have more hp than other DG from start to endgame. If you're investing in anything else but HP/Armor with TB you're no playing it right.
HoL is cheap on any DG, period. Oak is no special case there. I just love running into multiple towers mid-game with TB and dealing 6+k damage to all of them in less than 20s. Only to be full hp and mana seconds later.
Ok, but HoL is not insanely useful for oak midgame compared to other demigods with HoL. They can get 3000 hp/mana by running away for 10 seconds and oak could get 1800 hp/mana without the running away requirement. I would argue it's making yourself much weaker to get a HoL at that point, but we may having differing ideas of what is midgame.
So, what do you regard as midgame exactly? Because you need a number of deaths for people to even start to being able to afford HoL "midgame". Roughly levels 7-11 perhaps? People buying up their 1.5k items? War rank 4-7? That's my idea of midgame; I don't know who shares that with me. But, I do know that HoL only becomes feasible after you have your 5 item slots filled. There are also the skillpoints to get shield 3, which would be crazy to get at level 7. Those extra points in shield come after level 10 if you get your aoe at all, which you would 95% of the time.
And 1800 is NOT half oak's life midgame. Not unless instead of buying armor items he got HoL instead, which seems to be the situation you are describing because there is no way of affording it otherwise without getting multiple kills. And that completely gimps oak. It's stupid to run around with 3-3.5k hp and a HoL as him midgame unless you are using some really speciailised strategy against a special opponent.
So, that's basically my argument. There is no way an oak can use shield+HoL midgame unless he doesn't buy items and sacrifices skill points. Doing those two things makes him much weaker than if he had hp stacked and used consumables. The only way HoL+shield midgame is viable is if the oak is being fed.
Oh, and regarding the priests, that's not endgame. Priests outheal HoL before level 10. A level 10 oak has 4.5k hp with banded+nimoth+boots, nevermind that you might throw in BotF, more items or a health flag, easily reaching 5k or 6k.
I'm done with this topic. I'm sorry you continue to go back to priests and all these variables and everything. You're talking very specific scenarios and until i see that you look at the general picture then i'm through. You say NORMALLY oak this yet then you go on and talk about adapting to the situation. Isn't getting shield at level 7 adapting isn't getting HoL very early adapting.
You will see no further response from me.
Yes, you do sacrifice a lot.
And this is why Lieu- can be fairly confident in his assertion.
You aren't listening to someone who is clearly much more experienced at this game than you are.
I was talking about the general picture. The general picture is that Oak buying a HoL midgame is significantly worse than spending the gold on other things. That is why it is not "insanely powerful", because it's downright bad. That strategy might catch some bad players off guard but all it takes is two seconds to recognise that (in general I might add - this isn't a specific situation):
- He can't last 5 seconds toe-to-toe without his shield on. His stats are like an early game regulus. What do you do to fix this? Buy some 1.5k armor items but now you don't have a HoL.
- His speed is terrible because he can't afford wand of speed and boots. Couple this with his 5 seconds of survivability and what do you get? Uselessness.
- His damage is bad because you lost two skill points to rank 3 shield by level 7. You just took away 80 weapon damage, a huge bunch of spirits, or a mix of both.
- Bad damage, low speed, low tanking ability = no chasing anyone down.
As soon as you fix these problems even partially, you no longer have the gold to buy a heart of life.
And what do you get? 6 seconds of autoattack and a health/mana refresh. You are refreshing an hp pool that lasts 5 seconds. 2v2 this is a complete write-off. 1v1 harassment it might work if you were against a very specific opponent like, oh, maybe fire torchbearer who didn't buy armor? Someone who also could take very few hits, couldn't chase to punish and whose offensive combo was nullified by an hp refresh...
Now, Oak classic is a pain to fight (although I very rarely even see one...). He hits hard, takes a lot of hits and has a bunch of tools. If he had an hp and mana refresh then that would be powerful. The problem is it's either one or the other. Unless of course someone is feeding.
So, yeah. HoL is lategame for Oak at best (and hey, what about citadel upagrades?) and at that point, it's just not that good. 1800 is 1/3 of your hp, everyone has potions anyway, mana is easy to get, everyone could have bought one if they wanted to, etc, etc, etc. Maybe buy it if you have extra gold and there are the right opponents, otherwise, meh.
EDIT: just checked, what would be a usual build, at level 10 with 5,45K total gold (1k start + 4,5k farmed) = 4100hp, 42,7% mitigation with Vlemish and Wand of Speed(Scalemail, Banded, Nimoth, BoTF).
What do you sacrifice. Tell me a specific and i'll believe you. You sacrifice a lot isn't good enough.
I've played against lieu and as torchbearer i DOUBLED his favor endgame and even had more kills. He played with malice (if thats the right person) who is a sedna and i only died ONE MORE TIME THAN HE DID. He was using the shield HoL thing MOST of the game.
For 4250, you can get boots+hauberk+nimoth. Or boots+nimoth+ TPs, pots and locks. Or boots+nimoth+priests.
If he was using Shield+HoL MOST of the game, I'm not surprised he lost
What's your in-game nick, ElerianShield?
Also, you do realize all of this is going to be rendered moot with the v1.1 patch, right?
This is funny.
For a detailed list of what you sacrifice, refer to my recent post.
I've played against lieu and as torchbearer i DOUBLED his favor endgame and even had more kills.
Favour? You're using that to compare? And we were on the same team. Are you kidding me? Bonus favour is determined after you've won; half the kills come at the end just farming them, mass aoe for damage/gold/grunts bonus at the end, kill streak pure luck, etc. Favour is a terrible measure. And a torchbearer getting a lot of rewards and damage for aoeing stuff?
Here's a thought: Judge performance on the game itself. And the game was just another average/below average stomp, no decent competition, no test of anything. Also, judging from 1 game?
Loving those endgame statistics are we?
This is the best bit. I never used shield+HoL the entire game. I didn't even own a HoL until the last 2 minutes beating on the towers around their citadel, overflowing with gold.
Maybe this is the problem? You're deluded into thinking all these oaks are using shield+HoL when it's just priests and other healing? There was a sedna on our team as you noticed but you didn't put 2 and 2 together.
Seriously, wow. Not even owning a HoL or even having shield 3 becomes using shield+HoL most of the match?
Either you see phantom HoLs all over the place and hence this thread or you are willing to flat out lie. Either way, it explains a lot.
Edit: Just realised you said you played against me. You were on our team and it was a steamroll. Maybe you were confusing me for someone else? Nope, you mention sedna (Malice).
So much for "no more responses from me," huh Xavior?
Lieu, I was wondering, what type of Oak do you usually use? My friend was thinking about using Oak with my Sedna.
Double Post...
I occasionally play an Oak build, and I will admit, Oak's shield + a Heart of Life is usually a very dependable way to get your health up. However, Oak's killing power if an Oak gets this first usually isn't enough to get a kill in a 1v1 battle between demigods early in game (in my experience) as long as the other demigods know when to run back and when to fight. One of the biggest assets I have with my Oak is a quick run speed with the Anklet, and the boots of speed right at the start, but fire TB's can easily outrun me. If a fire TB gets the Anklet and Boots, along with his fire aura relatively early, his run speed is always faster unless if i cast Penitence or Surge of Faith. However, Surge of faith doesnt unlock until level 5 and has a 1 second cast time, which is usually enough time for a fire TB to run away, especially if that fire TB gets his second level of Fire Aura in leiu of Fireball or Circle of Fire from the cirumstances. As for Penitence, it is a very high cost skill, especially in early game when an Oak doesn't have that much mana to begin with. My suggestion to Xavior, is to run sooner, and get out of melee range at the very least, throughout most of a game, unless if absolutely necessary (which I can't see how it would be). It isn't impossible to take on the Oak for more beefy characters, such as a Rook (especially with Boulder Roll or a tower farm) or an Unclean Beast, but you SHOULD NOT be taking on Oak as a Torch Bearer... that is just plain stupid.
Or that same TB could be having Scalemail, Banded and BoTF instead and could be knowing that Ice Mark gives him +70 damage/15 second buff and not ever have to run from you.
Quoting Lieu:
Now, Oak classic is a pain to fight (although I very rarely even see one...). He hits hard, takes a lot of hits and has a bunch of tools.
Now i haven't been playin 4 long, but Oak is my fave, but what do you consider classic in terms of skills?
I personally play more the general style Oak, and tend to harass my opponents with my spirits while I'm on my way, then once they are in range, I use penitence, followed by SoF to boost the dmg my minions and I do. If i have an artefact i literally kill in 5-7 seconds. ( 7 sec since my penitence is recharged and is enough to flame em by then).
I rarely even buy HoL due 2 it's cost, and i think it's better used 4 equipment, possibly a Mageslayer or maybe Girdle of Giants if i can afford it by mid-endgame ( I consider lvl 6-7 to 14-15 midgame) since they give me more chance to either: kill the opposing DG before i even need to use a pot or to get a great bonus with the cleaving attack (even if i go for a DG i'll still hit reinforcements and thus regen my spirit army and health thx 2 divine justice)
Also, correct me if i'm wrong, doesn't shield IV also heal for 600 and thus raise the 1800 health gained to 2400???
Classic Oak in my opinion would be:
Raise Dead Ward IVSoul Power IPenitence IVDivine Justice IShield usually to level III for the dispelSurge Of Faith III
4 points left...
Spirits and very strong Auto-attack early supplemented with Penitence for finishing, priests, lots of hp/armor. Later on - Lots of staying power with Divine Justice and Shield. Surge of Faith after level 10, for mass farming and Buffs.
Don't forget that penitence is arguably the best interrupt - instant with a decent range and low cooldown. It's debuff is solid, but it's even better if you manage to cancel an enemy cast, so often it is better not to expend it as soon as you're in range.
Actually, I use Behrens' build and it works quite well 4 me.
Behrens' build is found here: http://forums.demigodthegame.com/353713
It nearly completely takes the "classic" route but i tend 2 take 1 or 2 points in shield instead of morale so i can quickly save my ass if needed.
I know I shouldn't cast peni that fast but it mostly interrupts a potion or tele scroll since, by the time I get there, either my spirits already took a small chunk and if they see me they want 2 tele out of there or another ally comes in to help kill it.
Minions are only worthwile early game and as fodder late game. Investing in morale is a waste!
Soul Power at 8??? Waiting for more spirits??? That is completely broken and uninformed view on building Oak. Death Ward I + Sould Power I gives +60 damage...damn sure it's worthwile!
Getting penitence first is a total waste imho. You're not gonna scare any half decent DG with 200 damage and you will run out of mana after 2 of them. Especially UB - you nib him for 200, he laughs and spits you for 500, then chases you down with 2500hp remaing. You're out of the lane soon after.
However getting Death Ward at level 1, then Soul Power at level 2 will give you +60 damage really really fast. Whoever understimates that at level 2 dies real quick.
Surge of faith at level 5 is bullshit, you neither have the mana nor is it any better for killing creeps. You still have to hit them to kill them so might as well just use autoattack. Surge of Faith only starts shinning with mid-late game Oak.
Personally I don't find early divine justice any good. Late game it rocks.
Shield is an awesome tool. A noob Oak thinks 3 second invulnerability is bullshit. Good Oak thinks Shield blocks some very strong abilities and along with the best interrupt - penitence, really kills some DGs. At level 3 it gets even better with a dispel. No need to get it any higher, but damn sure a lot more worhtwile skill than Morale.
Penitence also interrupts mines, fireball, circle of fire and if you're good some more (sedna heal included).
Spirits are terrible at chasing moving opponents and highly vulnerable to AoE. Late game they just aren't up to the task, might as well leave them home just for the +damage bonus
Lieu addessed the issue that i wanted him to and did it very well. No reason for you to get rude and offensive.
I'm starting to lean to HoL being not as useful as said but as Misfortune says Shield is an awesome tool. I'm not just talking about HoL anymore add in wings of the seraphim early game and now you still have the regen and it took you ABSOLUTELY NO MONEY TO GET. Sure you have 800 less hp than if you had BoTF but now even with shield level 1 and WoTS you can get 800 whenever you please WHILE taking no damage WHILE attacking. Sure jsut get blood of the fallen and use shield is jsut as effective but does blood of fallen have area. Can blood of the fallen give 2000.
As misfortune also says. Pentinance is a waste and the first 2 levels should be death ward and soul power. I myself play oak except without the HoL and he's still awesome anyway. So what do you get third? lets see pentinence is out of the question. Nothing is worth interupting for instantly draining half your mana. 200 damage you can hit regularly. Shield is a low mana spell that is useful lets see. Attribute enhancer= useless this early. So the decision is made shield. You normally would get shield without HoL how is that sacrificing. With HoL your survivability goes up enough that you DON"T NEED last stand which means your not DOWN skill points you're UP.
So to get HoL you need what 4.2k lets see, since the sellback rate is 80% or so you buy items like nimoths chesplate (not exactly sure of the name) velmish helm and unbreakable boots. YOU CAN SELL THESE FOR ALMOST 4k ALONE. With starting gold you really aren't that far off. You aren't suffering in the begining because you don't have items you may just be 1k down on other demigods. Well have an ally get currency REALLY early. People underestimate that currency pays for itself with 1 person in 450 seconds which is 7 1/2 minutes okay thats a lot. But 3 people playing only takes 150 seconds to get back what you put in. Thats 2 1/2 minutes not long at all. And if you beat the other team to currency even by 1 minute you still make that 1k back. So no you aren't sacrificing money or early game effectiveness. Plus HoL on it's own has some nice bonus's.
k thx 4 the tips Misfortune, but I forgot to mention that I only use the skills listed, not in that order, morale indeed sux, had 2 see that 1 comin and where did I say shield ain't good?? It saved me many times and thus I think it's great!
Though I guess ur right about the minions... they are fodder in late game!!! Death ward does give an armor bonus at higher lvl's so it's usefull to plant 1, even if u don't use the spirits anymore.
Sorry, was comenting the build you referenced, not your post.
I'm not sure the armor bonus of ward is still in the game, but 9 spirits always give +80 damage. That is nothing to sneeze at, plus they are great fodder for taking down towers/forts. Just have to be careful with them (or make a lot of them non-stop). Late game DG are so much more powerful that the spirits dissapear quite fast (they are also much easier to make).
What I usually do is get Ward first. I know it's weird but it enables me to have 3 spirits as soon as I tick level 2. Then with Soul Power pretty much any 1v1 is yours (3 Spirits, +60 auto attack damage). That usually means a won flag and if opponent is not careful a lane to yourself. Usually no-one expects that much damage from Oak at level 2.
Next I get Penintence I and II (level 3 & 4). I find that once I already have the +60 damage and 3 spirits, Penitence can score me DG kills if they are at base speed. Plus at this point of the game 400 damage is pretty good.
I dont level Soul Power for a while as each additional level only adds +20 damage. I level Penitence as soon as I get chance, but I happen to scatter other points on utility depending on need (Shield, Ward and Divine Justice). At level 10 I would have:
(Well, this kind of turned into a wall of text)
Actually, soul power gives +40 for every rank. +20 static and +20 if you have a spirit alive, just like rank 1. You can test it.
Spirit ward vs soul power is interesting and usually match dependent. Spirits do more pure dps, but they have huge trouble chasing. Towers obliterate them, yet they are useful as fodder when killing a tower. Aoe destroys them quickly, but then you can get them back quickly too. Soul power is great for chasing, not quite as good when standing your ground. Don't forget rank 3 soul ward gives 200 armor and rank 4 gives 400 to everything allied. 8% or 16% more ehp from your base hp. Spirits can also be sent anywhere.
So, spirit ward is at its best when:
- Toe-to-toe conflicts or allied toe-to-toe conflicts where your spirits can be sent over
- Lots of autoattack
- 2v2s or higher are happening, dangerous to go in
- Fighting in open spaces without towers
Soul power is at its best when:
- Enemy is covered by towers
- Lots of aoe
- Enemy is fast / hits and runs / not in combat for long
The biggest factor I find is whether your enemy is relying on nearby tower cover or not. Towers are what stop your spirits in their tracks. Still, usually spirits are better unless you are steamrolling someone. Also it comes down to your point spending because spirit wards are not equal. Rank 3 ward is usually far better than a rank of soul power. The ward nets you +20 damage going past 6 spirits, you get more spirits, stronger spirits and 8% ehp for everyone. Soul power only offers +20 more damage than ward 3.
Ward 2, however is 2 spirits vs +40 damage. Except it isn't, not really. Ward 2 offers 2 wards instead of 1, extremely useful in many situations, and importantly you can actually use your spirits more. 3 spirits die easily and come back slower - using them will often lose you your +20 damage for having 3 alive. Hovering between 3-5 spirits you keep than bonus while at the same time using your spirits to a much further extent.
So it's like 3 different skills and you have 1-2 points usually. One point to use before lvl 10? Then it's ward 2 vs soul power 2. 2 points? Then you will likely get ward 3 early because it's awesome. But then maybe you're against a tb+reg+x team playing defensively and 3 ranks of soul power let you rip their faces off.
So many factors. You can even have the best of both worlds. You can go up both lines before level 10, playing a really focused dueling build. Usually happens in a 2v2 where it comes down to 1v1s a lot and you simply don't need surge of faith until later. It also usually happens more in a close game - when you're winning you usually need to pck up surge of faith 2 for pushing.
Also, penitence vs soul ward at level 1. It depends. Penitence 1 isn't for pecking someone. It's for when you've just gotten into melee and you put it between two autoattacks, not losing any damage, slowing them so you can be sure of nice follow-up hits. It's 4 autoattacks when ward+soul power bonus damage beats penitence 1 for damage. Better when laning straight away, but penitence is more of a team thing. Best example: xp flag in cataract. Both teams try and secure it and it's very important. You can't even get spirits here, but even if you could, penitence does more when 2 people are attacking the target. Both the 7% slow and 7% more damage make sure of this.
Is it worth delaying ward+soul power for 1 level? On cata I'd say yes, if you think you can win the middle. (especially since you'll hit 3 very fast after that). On other maps? Going straight to lane 1v1? Ward+soul power is better. Somewhere in between it's 50/50.
Thx for that info - hadn't tested it myself... So Soul Power III + 9 Spirits is +200 damage after all Definitely the best general minion/skill synergy.
Sorry i had to do this. 100 posts WOOOO
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