I am writing this post both to express a concern that I have, and to solicit opinions from the community, about the effect that one specific gameplay element will have on any future competitive gameplay which may occur: flag locks.
I am concerned because in a competitive setting between two teams of "pros", a match of demigod could very well be determined in the first 2 minutes of a match where one team locks down flags, and will then proceed to keep them locked for the remainder of the match. The resulting bonuses, be they +15 health or mana, 20% exp, gold mine, debilitating or whatever the flag is (not to mention the resulting warscore advantage) completly and totally justify the expense of the locks and teleport scrolls required to maintain complete map control for the entire duration of the game. Heck, a 250 gold flag lock is the best counter to a lvl 20 hero with 50k gold saved up but nothing to buy except artifacts that the game has.
On many maps, a coordinated team could easily coordinate permanent control of flags through teleport scrolls/favor items. At that point, barring some massive upset, the match is already largely determined. I have personally used this strategy extremely effectively, and I have been completely striken by both its power and the complete lack of any counter for it. To be honest, it almost seems to be a borderline exploit, as permanently locking a flag does not appear to be the gameplay intent of flags; rather I view them as strategic points on a map where skirmishes between demigods should take place, and where the winner of said skirmish will get a *temporary* bonus.
I really like the flag mechanic however. Getting rid of flag locks is not really an option as they can be required to end a late game stalemete through portal captures. Maybe the flag bonuses are just too powerfull, or maybe flag locks should be more expensive , or maybe flag locks should only stack to 1 in your inventory, or maybe the duration is too long. Perhaps it shouldn't be a true "lock", but rather a shield that could be burned down to allow capture after it goes down, or perhaps it could just make the arrow move more slowly to still allow the flag to be captured, or perhaps one shouldn't be able to lock onto a flag to port there if it's in the fog of war, or perhaps warscore should be based on a different mechanic than number of flags held multiplied by time held. I just have a gut feeling that some sort of change needs to occur with the flag locks .
Am I the only one that sees this as a potential problem? Yes yes both teams can do this so it theoretically balances out, but in reality it doesn't. So, what are your opinions?
I wish there were replays working so you could show us in action what you're describing. I think I get what you're saying, but much easier to see than to read. Are you on pretty often? I'd like to play a game with you and see how this strategy works.
For example: Enemey comes, captures portal flag, locks it, teleports, fights then on another point on the map, recaptures/relocks portal flag and so on. That is what happened to me. Of course there are other strategies.
The cost is 250 gold every 45 seconds, or 333.3 gold per minute.
3333 gold for a 10 minute permanent lock.
6666 gold for a 20 minute game.
The cost with one teleport scroll per lock will be double, 666.6 per minute, 6666 for a 10 minute advantage or 13333 for 20 minutes.
The actual cost may be reduced as it's possible to predict and only re-lock if there's a risk for the flag to be contested.
It's interesting to estimate how the investment pays off within the first 10 minutes with various flags, and compare that to the cost of items or upgrades producing similar results.
This may be good for winning against endgame oriented builds, but may be tricky against early pushing.
I can think of a few ways to prevent permanent locking:
- a previously locked flag cannot be locked again for 15 seconds by the same team
- increase cooldown drastically (90 sec)
- flag locks are only available after a certain war rank score is reached
- only two flag locks per team are available at any given time, you can only carry one
The actual cost is substantially lower than that as you only really have to lock when you won't be sticking around the flag for a while (for example the middle exp flag on cataract where no creeps path), or if you would otherwise loose a flag (such as a 2v1 situation). Also, if a full team is contributing the cost becomes easier to maintain. Finally, one does not always need a teleport scroll to defend a flag from being captured. Many flags are close enough to where you'd be creeping/pushing to run to in a relatively short period of time.
Consider a 3v3 situation where you lock a flag w/ a gold mine (and no other bonus, much like on cataract). If I remember correctly, that mine will produce 4 gold/sec for all players on the team that controls it. However, you're also depriving the other team of that income, meaning a net delta of 8 gold/second multiplied by the number of players (so 8*3=24g/sec total in this example). If we only consider the time the flag is locked and dont add in the couple seconds spent capturing a flag, that means at least 45 seconds of a 24g/second net advantage for one team, a total of a 1080 gold swing(540g income gained for one team, 540g "lost" for the other). Do that a few times in a match and the total effect adds up quick.
And to Freykin, my tag is "TheJadeMonkey". I'm not on extremely often, normally for a couple hours here and there in the evenings, recently playing as an ooze centric UB.
Good points BobWI, though I was aware of the effectiveness of locking out gold - just never bothered with the map or continuous locks.
The ease of locking and maintaining it is a concern.
The first two are interesting, particularly the 15 second "immunity".
BobWi, while flag locks have some potential to break the game in the lategame (and might need some changes because of that in the upcoming months) your idea of permanent flag locking is not really feasible, because all team members spent their money on flag lock(s) there is no way they will control all the flags early on. And even if they get them right at the beginning they have to move back home often which means lost xp and gold from creeps.
Gold mines also give only 2 gold per second
and demigods can be interrupted when casting capture lock
I don't think it's plausible to permanently keep EVERYTHING locked down. Especially as the enemy gets items instead while you burn everything on locks.
They can easily camp a flag until the lock wears off, or spread out and wait at all the flags (it is very difficult to keep track of everything)
viable strategy that hasnt shown to be game breaking. has definite drawbacks and advantages.
you could say teleport scrolls are game breaking too.
Thanks for the correction on the mines. I probably got messed up with the flags that control two mines a piece. The gist remains the same however.
A team doesnt need to permanently keep every single flag locked down to have a massive advantage however. Most flags only have a couple of flags that will be in contention at any given moment. Think prison which only really has the 3 in the middle, or cataract that has the three in the middle, and two more after taking down a tower on a side. Using locks in these maps can automatically keep 1-2 of the 3 flags that are generally in contention. Go with all three heroes to the third flag, pick it up, and then push without caping. And in the case of them getting items, well, by taking and holding gold flags (easily done on maps like prison, cataract, or exile off the top of my head), you dont really fall behind in items while rocking them on warscore.
Also if they are camping a flag, that means at least one hero isnt creeping/pushing/defending a push, just sitting twiddling his thumbs. Then, I can walk up while the flag just wears out and most likely pop another lock on very easily unless it's a 2v1 and they dont use their inturrupts immediatly.
Also, remember that the flags are equivalent to some item/citadel purchases. +15 mana regen for your entire team is almost as good as everyone on the team getting a vlemish. 20% exp costs 3600 gold at the citadel and requires war rank 4. A flag w/ 2 gold mines is equivalent to 1200gold at war rank 3. -cooldown is better than a favor item slot. A Dark Valor flag is roughly 4200gold in creep upgrades.
You rock them on war score, but can't buy the upgrades....
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