So how complicated (as internal critics put it) or sophisticated (as internal advocates put it) should the Elemental economic system be?
We have the code in for handling a pretty sophisticated/complicated economic engine. But the debate is, is the system sophisticated? Or just complicated.
Let me give you the arguments of each camp.
Camp #1: “Sophisticated”
1. Everything in Elemental is a resource. Food, metal, swords, armor, horses, you name it.
2. Resources can be processed into other resources. Iron Ore into a Sword.
3. Part of the fun of the game would be running a proper empire (or letting AI governors take care of it).
Example:
A mine is built on an iron resource. The mine produces 10 units of iron ore per turn. That iron ore is then directed to go to the city of Torgeto where a blacksmith is able to produce 5 swords per turn. The unused iron ore is stored in a warehouse that can store up to 100 units of iron ore.
Those swords can be directed to be shipped to various other places (with sliders or other UI means to determine what ratio goes where).
In some of those places, the swords are issued to soldiers. In other places, the swords are sent to an alchemist workshop who, taking potions that have been shippped in from Wellford which in turn had taken Aeoronic crystal mined in another town to turn into those potions. The resulting magical swords are then shipped out to various places with the player (or governor) able to control the ratio in which they are shipped.
Caravans appear on the map to show the items being shipped. If those caravans are attacked, the items are lost.
Camp #2: “Simple and Fun”
1. There are only natural resources (food, iron, crystal, horses, etc.).
2. When a natural resource is controlled, the player assigns that resource to a specific town.
3. Only that town can make use of it. Towns that don’t have a resource assigned it cannot build units that require those resources.
Unlike camp 1, there are no ratio sliders to mess with. A resource is assigned to a particular town. That makes certain towns more strategic than others and a lot less micro management. On the other hand, it means that there will be many towns that can only build weaker units. Players can research technologies that increase the base (weaker) unit that cities can build over time but some cities will simply be more important than others.
Caravans would still flow from the natural resource to the target town and if those caravans are attacked, the enemy player gains a bonus and the victim player would get a penalty to their production until the next caravan arrives.
The Argument
Camp 1 argues that a lot of fun can be had in putting together ever more sophisticated and specialized items. If natural resources can be processed into new resources that can in turn be processed again and again and again, you can reward players who might be able to equip elite crack soldiers with very rare but very powerful weapons and armor.
Camp 2 argues that while some people would enjoy that, it would result in a lot of people who would find that system burdensome and turn them off to the game entirely. It also says that those who do like the camp 1 system would still be satisfied with camp 2 where those who like camp 2 would probably be totally turned off if the camp 1 system were used. In addition, they argue that Elemental has so much other “stuff” to it (sophisticated diplomacy, tactical battles, quests, etc.) that many players might find they have to rely on AI governors which would put a heavy burden on having really “smart” AI.
Now personally, I could go either way. I do like the idea of players having to choose certain towns that are absolutely strategic. But I also like the idea of being able to have “processed” manufacturing that can keep specializing things until you get some rare but very valuable things.
On the other hand, I’m also worried that a complex system could turn out to fall apart in actual practice (the user interface for it would have to be incredibly good) and then we’d be stuck having to go to camp 2 late in development.
What do you think?
UPDATE: 5/21/2009
Camp #3: The Merchant
Today we looked at the feedback from here and Quarter to Three and came up with a way that may satisfy both camps and increases the fun overall.
1. Everything is a resource.
2. Resources can be processed into other resources (iron to swords, crops to food, crystal to potions).
3. Resources are sent automatically to other towns based on the resource needs of that town. No micromanagement, no AI.
4. The fun of this portion of the game would be in watching your empire grow organically.
There are no ratios to set. If I build a town with a blacksmith, then one presumes I did that because I want to produce stuff that requires a blacksmith. If I build (or upgrade) more blacksmiths, then one presumes this town is a place where I want to crank out a lot of stuff.
Similarly, if I build a town with multiples barracks it presumes I am trying to train soldiers which means that stuff should be shipped there, particularly if I’m in the process of building a particularly type of soldier.
Caravans (which aren’t player controlled) send out regular shipments of resources to the various towns. When these shipments arrive, they’re available for use on demand or, if the town has a warehouse, they are stored.
When players design a unit, they choose a category of weapon and that category of weapon (whether in the field or in a warehouse) will automatically upgrade as my tech gets better. A short sword doesn’t become a long sword or anything like that. But A short sword would automatically become a better short sword if I research tech that improves is in order to remove the complexity of having to “upgrade” units. However, the cost of keeping a soldier in the field will be fairly high and since soldiers come from population, there’s a real down side to keeping throngs of soldiers idle.
In addition, by building roads, my caravans will arrive a lot quicker (3X faster). Similarly, I have to keep my supply lines secure.
This also opens the door for a lot more trading. Rather than just having “food” you can have “crops”. Crops are processed into food and can be traded with other civilizations or used by special buildings (Inns, restaurants, etc.) to increase prestige (which adds to influence).
It also allows players to have the game be very simple (just keep everything local) or highly sophisticated (have weaponry go through multiple processes – a magic sword processed by a Aereon Forge doubles its damage. The town with the Aereon forge is the one that would get on the priority list of magic swords and the Aereon blades produced would be sent to the town with the barracks that is producing your “Night Guard” or whatever you call your designed unit.
But in this way, there’s no real UI other than providing players the ability to close down shops in a city or expedite their priority to get more stuff sent to them. The player remains the king/emperor and not a logistics manager but at the same time is the architect for success of their kingdom’s economy if they so choose.
UPDATE: 5/23/2009
Camp #4: Quarter To Three concept
Having read a lot of posts both here and QuarterToThree we’ve thought of another way to do it that might be interesting.
2. Resources can be processed into other resources.
3. Controlling a resource automatically makes it available throughout your empire at a basic level. The more resources you control, the more that basic level is provided.
4. If there is a road to a city that connects you to where the resource is provided, that city gets a bonus amount of that resource.
5. Cities can build improvements that have caravans deliver bonus amounts of that resource to that city from the source.
6. Cities can optionally build warehouses whose only affect is that they can store caravan deliveries for later use. I.e. if I’m not currently building death knights, I can store caravans of “stuff” so that when I do build them, I instantly get the bonus at that point.
I want my army to be filled with trained knights who have plate mail, steel swords, plate helmets, etc. Those things are expensive. If I control an iron deposit, I can build them though any town with a barracks. Let’s say it will take 30 turns to create that unit. 10 of those turns is the training of the soldier and the other 20 is the production of the equipment. If I control 2 iron deposits, that production is knocked down to 18. If I have a road that connects this town to the the iron resource (directly or indirectly) then I can knock it down another turn for each resource.
I can also build a blacksmith shop. By doing this, caravans will be sent from the iron resource production area to the town with the armory. When that caravan arrives, it will reduce the time even further.
Similarly, if I want to make a magic sword that requires Aegeon crystal to be turned into a magic potion then as soon as I build 1 Alchemist lab in any town, then any town can build magic swords at a base level. If I build 2 alchemist labs, I won’t get any further bonus unless I control more than 1 Aegeon crystal.
So basically, it’s a much simpler system that provides fairly straight forward bonuses for players who want to create a more sophisticated economy.
I'm also a camp 1 follower.
Boobie said that in late game you can have tons of ressources to manage. If I take my Galciv2 game experience I rarely build a scout in late game. I only build warships and constructors. I rather doubt that in end game in elemental I will be transporting cheap level 1 helmets everywhere. More than liely most of the items I used previously will now be in the middens heap.
Moreover Gouvenors will help out and as for ther est I love to be in control. What's the point of playing a game where you have nothing to check all thet iem because you have no options. BORING!
I want to be ab le to create something unique in everygame. IN camp 1 I will be able to move my manufacturing with me to the front. My first twn which is 3 months away from the front line will not be my main manufactering center anymore, in this option it will follow my empire's pregression.
On another note destroying towns from my ennemy will actually hurt him this time because it might be his main ore refinery or his main sword manufactering center. If you use camp 2 you can never really hurt your ennemy because everything can be done almost anywhere in the empire... = BORING!
Most game don't have any level of sophistication, all you have to do it create a good town and then make it do the ultimate troops... = boring! and predictable and already been there and done that.
How about we risk a little bit and do something different... I think Stardock is the team to do such a thing. Take a chance live dangerously.... You can make it.
Camp 1 all the way.
Heh, he said Boobie
That made me think of WinterSong's avatar(s)
I had a long post thought out, but I have played a game where idea #1 was used. Paradox made a game called Victoria that seemed to be exactly what idea #1 was. It ruined the game for many people.
Now, in some aspects Elemental would have an easier time of it then Victoria- in that you have less time pressure in Victoria.
However, I'm concerned the system may be too complicated for most players. You gotta remember this forum is the diehard core of the fanbase- we're more receptive to this then casuals. It's kinda like Virtua Fighter. Game is a really good game, but gets rejected due to overcomplication.
I can see this being real annoying in MP games as well.
The problem with idea #2 is that either one of two things will happen. Units able to be built will be luck-based, or people will end up spamming their most efficient unit.
This is why I think a third idea might be neeeded, but I have no idea what would work best.
What I don't want:
Excessive micromanagement (I agree with the AP that said if you need an AI governor to function, you did it wrong)
A system where people beeline to the tier whatever unit. Cannon fodder needs to be useful even in late game. Quantity should matter as well as quantity. No 8 units beating 103 like in FFHII. (I seriously had that a few minutes ago- and only 1 of the units was a hero)
This being the case I am moving a bit more towards camp 2. If the management of camp 1 is meaningful then I think that is still more ideal, however I don't want to get bogged down in busy work. If 1 is implemented is such a way that the micromanagement actually results in real benefit, There is going to be some pride in setting up a smooth running production and distribution system. There is going to be SO MUCH other stuff going on in the game though - relly makes me hopeful that we can find a good balance of camps 1 and 2.
Thanks for the info guys this is getting mrore exciting by the day!
We can abstract the transport of them. Like in Civ4.
I still want towns to be unique and particular around a particular function.
But that's the thing. Option 1 will allow you to create pretty much whatever kind of unit you want because it allows you the freedom to put together any kind of item that's possible given your resources.
Option 2 eliminates all of that by having only natural resources, so you'll inevitably end up with basic units all around.
I should have just said TL;DR to this darned thread... my head hurts now!That said, I'm generally in favor of model 1, so long as the AI / background mechanics don't place unecesarry micro requirements on the player. (AKA: get it right!)
Personally, I'd use a need draw approach -- if a city suddenly needs swords, your empires supply of swords is going to be drawn to it (proportional, overall, to your entire empire's 'need' of that resource -- the closer they are to the supply, the more of the swords they get, the more people demanding it, the fewer they get). Caravans can then be automaticly generated to transfer along player-defined caravan networks. (Not road networks, caravan networks -- I say 'You can connect cities A:B, B:C, C:D, but don't even try to connect A:D, because that runs through pirate territory!)
With this model you'd also have intermediate items production based on need -- as the need for swords increases, towns will automatically increase their production (dependant on available resources).
The headache here comes from having to have a UI that lets the player tinker at a deeper level if something comes up. But because that's likely to be a once-a-blue-moon thing for anyone who isn't a micro-lover anyways, it doesn't have to be that micro-reducing. You can leave all the micro in at that level. Ideally you'd be able to tinker with one variable, 'lock' it, and then have the rest automaticly adjust, but... Actually, you should be able to do that If they adjust too much, the rest of the economy can't adapt and will 'collapse', but that's exactly what you'd expect to have happen if all of a sudden you're entire iron production is going into making tanks instead of cars...
Camp one I'd say, theres no point in making a fantasy world simulator and not making caravans, what would the new heros protect for their first jobs?
Also the economic system is one of the things I'm most interested in about this game, it should set it apart from the crowd.
I am in camp 1.
The key here will be good UI. Bear in mind that managing this will be many small decisions, not one shot setup of some horrendously complex web.
Basically, when on a town screen you decide what you want to build. For each option all the ingredients get shown - in green if available and red if not. As you assign resources to be shipped to the town the colours change.
If a resource becomes unavailable temporarily because a shipment gets stolen it turns yellow. If a resource becomes unavailable because a town is lost or reallocates the shipment, it turns red. Either way production is halted until supply resumes.
Essentially it boils down to this:
Camp 1 allows you to use the items you create with basic resources to create new items, and use those to create more, and so on. It basically lets you put together any kind of item you want from your available resources, and then stick it on a unit.
Camp 2 will end up being like Civ. There are only basic resources, so you only end up with basic units. You have iron and horse resources going to some town, that town can build your generic cavalry. That's about it. You can't come up with some cool weapon to give that cavalry, because there are no advanced resources.
Which is why I'm arguing for camp 1. I'm not in it for the masochistic micromanagement, but for the ability to create whatever item I want while playing the game and then chuckle as my army equipped with it mops the floor with the enemy. There are ways to make the camp 1 system manageable without requiring intense and constant micromanagement, there have been plenty of good suggestions in this thread, revolving mainly around automating caravans.
I just don't want to end up with a Civ clone that only lets you build your basic units, which is all that camp 2 will allow.
I've been talking on IRC and I grow stronger in supporting 1 again.
But I still think if we can control the number of resources that actually exist in our games, as I expect we would given how you want us to mod it and create our own worlds/lore/game then really, 1 isn't that big of a deal. Sure, it is a lot of work for you to get it right, but think of the satisfaction afterwards of just how much more flexible you've made the game.
I don't think we should have to manually control them though, in certain cases. If we put in an order for an end result unit, then all of that should be taken care of.
However, we should also have the capability to order a specific resource on its own...for whatever reason
I like Camp 1 not only because it adds more gameplay to mess around with but it gives you the chance to really customize your created soldiers. To make it a little easier to understand though I think you guys should explain it in phases
ex. Phase 1 is the mining of raw materials
Phase 2 is when a blacksmith breaks the metal down into armor or swords(in this phase you could re process the sword quite a few times just to make it better quality).
Phase 3 is optional but its the enchanting of weaponry.
At any time of these phases you can sell unused material to the public who will make use of the material which you couldnt. Another option would be to sell it to another civ. Or something like that.
The only way I could really see this getting complicated is when you are getting the raw metals (or whatever it is) imported from a different civ, but maybe they mine a better metal than you can so in a way it makes your relationship stronger as well.
The thing I love about the Camp 1 idea though, even it will prob make it more complicated, is that I picture eventually that each civ will use different metals (depending where they are located) and it will make each army look unique.
ex. one army may use enchanted bronze armor where the opposing army will have non enchanted steel and maybe you could even make a legendary crystal sword for a hero lol. I just think Camp 1 has alot of potential to add customization and create more personal ties with a computer controlled civ
I'm for Camp #3.
Camp #3: “KIMSS” (Keep It Mostly Simple Stupid) 1. Everything in Elemental is a resource. Food, metal, swords, armor, horses, you name it. 2. Resources can be processed into other resources. Iron Ore into a Sword. 3. Part of the fun of the game would be to be able to have a ‘direct hand’ in creating the items whilst not having to micromanage your empire quite so much.. Example: A mine is built on an ore resource. That mine produces X units of ore per turn. That ore is now made available to all cities within a certain radius. Any city within that radius can either a) use that ore automatically (when you build swordsmen, you now have an option to build regular swordsmen or new and improved Iron Swordsmen) Or they can specifically say in the city options, "Share resources with nearby towns" or something to that affect. If that option is turned on, a new radius is created that can use that ore. So now the next city can further push that ore on or use it self. If a city selects to push that ore on, expanding the available resources further across your empire, they can also use it. If they do use it, then less ore is available on the next turn for other cities in the given radius of that city. The bigger the city, the bigger the resource radius would be. So if a small city is near a ore mine and it shares resources which includes a bit city in it’s radius, that big city is now pushing ore to everyone in it’s influence. With this theory, cities would be still be strategically important, but they wouldn’t be the end all be all either. The map could show Ore overlays, along with other resource overlay, like a big, brightly colored Venn diagram. Of course, you’d want an option to show/hide the resource overlays and show specific resource overlays at a time.
Camp #3: “KIMSS” (Keep It Mostly Simple Stupid)
3. Part of the fun of the game would be to be able to have a ‘direct hand’ in creating the items whilst not having to micromanage your empire quite so much..
A mine is built on an ore resource. That mine produces X units of ore per turn. That ore is now made available to all cities within a certain radius. Any city within that radius can either a) use that ore automatically (when you build swordsmen, you now have an option to build regular swordsmen or new and improved Iron Swordsmen) Or they can specifically say in the city options, "Share resources with nearby towns" or something to that affect. If that option is turned on, a new radius is created that can use that ore.
So now the next city can further push that ore on or use it self. If a city selects to push that ore on, expanding the available resources further across your empire, they can also use it. If they do use it, then less ore is available on the next turn for other cities in the given radius of that city.
The bigger the city, the bigger the resource radius would be. So if a small city is near a ore mine and it shares resources which includes a bit city in it’s radius, that big city is now pushing ore to everyone in it’s influence.
With this theory, cities would be still be strategically important, but they wouldn’t be the end all be all either.
The map could show Ore overlays, along with other resource overlay, like a big, brightly colored Venn diagram. Of course, you’d want an option to show/hide the resource overlays and show specific resource overlays at a time.
I linked to the option I posted on my site because it goes into a lot more detail there. My idea is basically trying to have some complexity without getting too crazy. The idea is that managing an empire is going to be work and the less we have to do with that per turn, but still have strategical options to choose, the better game we get. IMO.
http://www.whatwouldmattdo.com/2009/05/21/do-we-elaborate-in-the-name-of-complexity-elemental-design-talk/
Ultimately, the more I look at this (also through IRC)- the reason idea #2 is getting traction is mostly due to a lack of faith that idea #1 can work with the AI, or a belief that idea #1 will end up too micromanagement heavy.
One idea I just came up with:
You should be able to design certain elements of your unit's appearance outside of the game itself. The idea I came up with was combine character creation from Soul Calibur IV with Spore's Creature Editor.
So when you get in game, you pick your unit creation file at startup, so when you make your swordsman, you automatically get say, blue uniform, cloak, and the sword that was made. Maybe have the ability to create type of sword in the editor as well.
I like complexity as long as it's transparent what the different options do. MOO3 absolutely sucked in this regard. Lots and lots of exciting options but not clear enough information. A lot of options can be really intimidating (and irritating) especially if they are not crystal clear.
Someone mentioned a way to reduce the need to micro-manage by having the computer calculate a caravan route automatically and then being able to change the route manually if one wants to.
I like the idea of being able to waylay the caravans and steal the resource. To be able to interrupt production and steal hard-to-get resources seems exciting, in theory at least, and makes it important to keep defense pretty solid even when on the winning side. I don't know if this would be part of this debate, but big armies could require a steady supply of food, making raids against food supply lines a viable defensive tactic, as well as raiding farms as a way to survive longer in enemy territory. This sounds interesting to me. In theory
Edit: Being able to customize the soldiers are utterly important to me. I love thinking up min-maxing munchkin-strategies. This was one aspect Alpha Centauri did better than all the Civ games.
I strongly favor 'camp 1' the sophisticated version.
I signed up specifically to convey my heartfelt support for camp 1! Please don't let the dumb-downers get you!
Argument 1: I am surprised that this debate is at all necessary. The camp 1 way is something new and interesting, while camp 2 is same-old. If it is at all possible to make camp 1 work, why on earth would you go for same-old?
Argument 2: People are not that stupid! If you make the system intuitive (as iron-> moved by caravan -> processed by blacksmith is), most players are going to be able to grasp it fairly quickly.
Argument 3: The company is run by the Holy Wizard of AI Überness, for christs sake. Surely you can handle some level of automation even for a slightly more complex system. Windows is a pretty complex thing as well, but with sufficient automation and interface/intuition magic, most people learn to use it just fine.
Argument 4: Defending camp 2 with strategy is absolute bollocks. There is a lot more strategy to properly managing buildings and resources in order to construe the Optimized Network of Awesomeness and Dynamicity than to just routing your resources to a producive city well tucked away somewhere safe.
I could go on, but the point is clear: It would be a major mistake to do camp 2. Don't be stupid now, you will regret it later. And make me cry.
Boogiemac dude love your idea about more and more resources get unlocked as game goes on this would be great.
I did enjoy Rise of Nations a lot with the special resources that gave out bonuses to the main resources but this is even better...
Oh ya keep the new info coming every day! Stardock FTW!
Just got out of a meeting talking this over. I think we're getting closer to a really fun, yet still involved economic system.
I have spent some time thinking about it, here is the system I would like to see.
I like from camp 1 everything is a resource.
I do not want everything simplified down to if you have a source of iron, then you can create anything that needs iron (i.e. Civilization) I would like to see amounts of each resource tracked.
I would like to see natural resources initially stored at the location where they are harvested, with no limit. i.e. iron ore created at mine at 10 units per turn - it just stacks up indefinitely as it is taken out of the ground.
As cities begin to queue up production that requires that resource, caravans are auto formed and sent. These caravans can be wiped out by enemies OR wandering monsters. At the city there should be an resource interface showing units of the resource, the status (i.e. in transit from Mine C" and the ETA. The distribution should be based on meeting the demand of nearby towns first. However, there should be a way to over ride this to force transport to where you want the resource to go.)
So say you want to make +2 swords in Town Alpha. Behind the scenes, town Alpha is going to look for all components needed to create +2 swords, and any of the resources available will be sent to town Alpha from any locations that have those resources.
Town Beta: Creating Elite swordsmen x 10
Requires: Trained conscript x10, +2 swords x 10, standard shield x10
Trained conscript: Currently being trained in Town Delta, training complete in 5 turns
+2 Swords: Currently in transit from Town Alpha, ETA 3 turns
Shields: None available and none being produced
I think the above exdample where there is "smart distribution" that can be tweaked is a good combination of camp 1 and 2. In the above example, you obviously need to either assign a town to start making shields, or get the resources needed to make shields routed to a town that is tasked with making shields but is not due to lack of required resources.
5 turns later the status of the above might be:
Town Beta: creating Elite swordsmen
Requires: Trained conscript, +2 swords, standard shield
Trained conscript: In transit from town Delta, ETA 1 turn
+2 Swords: Available
Shields: Being built in town Gamma, complete in 2 turns
This may still spiral out of control in late game and may be too much - this is kind of a simplistic model of how I personally envision it working. Instead of push distribution, it would be pull distribution where demand is filled somewhat automatically if the resources are available, priority given to close demand over distant demand but that can be over-ridden by the player. i.e. there may be two towns "requesting" trained conscripts, but you REALLY want to get these +2 swordsmen made so you set it as a top priority. The first trained conscripts available will be sent to Town Beta, even if there is another closer town also demanding them.
in other words, resources (whether natural or created) just pile up at the point of creation, and then as other places begin to demand said resource, they get dispatched by caravans...prioritized as outlined above...Stacked up resources could also be traded with other players, or stolen for that matter.
Too bad you did not have my PERFECT <wink> system available to discuss in your meeting.
[quote who="Zoomba" comment="145"] Just got out of a meeting talking this over. I think we're getting closer to a really fun, yet still involved economic system. [/quote]
Awesome. Can't wait to hear what the final decision is.
Speaking of meetings. Since you're making a Demigod video. How about a Making of video for Elemental for Collector's Edition?
Dear Stardockians,
It seems you're concerned about the complexity of one or more of:
1) underlying data/logic model
2) effective user interface to display relevant information about the model
3) effective user interface to make relevant changes to the model
4) effective automated algorithms (or "AI") to make decisions for players based on high-level player input
My guess is that you're not too worried about 1, and 2 and 3 are a lot of developer hours, but 4 sounds like an infinite-developer-time-sink to make something that people won't hate.
If so, how about hashing out the interface and algorithm particulars here on the forums? Maybe if we get down to pseudo-nuts&bolts we can see where the unrealistic elements are and where a good middle ground can be found?
Thanks,
Keith
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