So how complicated (as internal critics put it) or sophisticated (as internal advocates put it) should the Elemental economic system be?
We have the code in for handling a pretty sophisticated/complicated economic engine. But the debate is, is the system sophisticated? Or just complicated.
Let me give you the arguments of each camp.
Camp #1: “Sophisticated”
1. Everything in Elemental is a resource. Food, metal, swords, armor, horses, you name it.
2. Resources can be processed into other resources. Iron Ore into a Sword.
3. Part of the fun of the game would be running a proper empire (or letting AI governors take care of it).
Example:
A mine is built on an iron resource. The mine produces 10 units of iron ore per turn. That iron ore is then directed to go to the city of Torgeto where a blacksmith is able to produce 5 swords per turn. The unused iron ore is stored in a warehouse that can store up to 100 units of iron ore.
Those swords can be directed to be shipped to various other places (with sliders or other UI means to determine what ratio goes where).
In some of those places, the swords are issued to soldiers. In other places, the swords are sent to an alchemist workshop who, taking potions that have been shippped in from Wellford which in turn had taken Aeoronic crystal mined in another town to turn into those potions. The resulting magical swords are then shipped out to various places with the player (or governor) able to control the ratio in which they are shipped.
Caravans appear on the map to show the items being shipped. If those caravans are attacked, the items are lost.
Camp #2: “Simple and Fun”
1. There are only natural resources (food, iron, crystal, horses, etc.).
2. When a natural resource is controlled, the player assigns that resource to a specific town.
3. Only that town can make use of it. Towns that don’t have a resource assigned it cannot build units that require those resources.
Unlike camp 1, there are no ratio sliders to mess with. A resource is assigned to a particular town. That makes certain towns more strategic than others and a lot less micro management. On the other hand, it means that there will be many towns that can only build weaker units. Players can research technologies that increase the base (weaker) unit that cities can build over time but some cities will simply be more important than others.
Caravans would still flow from the natural resource to the target town and if those caravans are attacked, the enemy player gains a bonus and the victim player would get a penalty to their production until the next caravan arrives.
The Argument
Camp 1 argues that a lot of fun can be had in putting together ever more sophisticated and specialized items. If natural resources can be processed into new resources that can in turn be processed again and again and again, you can reward players who might be able to equip elite crack soldiers with very rare but very powerful weapons and armor.
Camp 2 argues that while some people would enjoy that, it would result in a lot of people who would find that system burdensome and turn them off to the game entirely. It also says that those who do like the camp 1 system would still be satisfied with camp 2 where those who like camp 2 would probably be totally turned off if the camp 1 system were used. In addition, they argue that Elemental has so much other “stuff” to it (sophisticated diplomacy, tactical battles, quests, etc.) that many players might find they have to rely on AI governors which would put a heavy burden on having really “smart” AI.
Now personally, I could go either way. I do like the idea of players having to choose certain towns that are absolutely strategic. But I also like the idea of being able to have “processed” manufacturing that can keep specializing things until you get some rare but very valuable things.
On the other hand, I’m also worried that a complex system could turn out to fall apart in actual practice (the user interface for it would have to be incredibly good) and then we’d be stuck having to go to camp 2 late in development.
What do you think?
UPDATE: 5/21/2009
Camp #3: The Merchant
Today we looked at the feedback from here and Quarter to Three and came up with a way that may satisfy both camps and increases the fun overall.
1. Everything is a resource.
2. Resources can be processed into other resources (iron to swords, crops to food, crystal to potions).
3. Resources are sent automatically to other towns based on the resource needs of that town. No micromanagement, no AI.
4. The fun of this portion of the game would be in watching your empire grow organically.
There are no ratios to set. If I build a town with a blacksmith, then one presumes I did that because I want to produce stuff that requires a blacksmith. If I build (or upgrade) more blacksmiths, then one presumes this town is a place where I want to crank out a lot of stuff.
Similarly, if I build a town with multiples barracks it presumes I am trying to train soldiers which means that stuff should be shipped there, particularly if I’m in the process of building a particularly type of soldier.
Caravans (which aren’t player controlled) send out regular shipments of resources to the various towns. When these shipments arrive, they’re available for use on demand or, if the town has a warehouse, they are stored.
When players design a unit, they choose a category of weapon and that category of weapon (whether in the field or in a warehouse) will automatically upgrade as my tech gets better. A short sword doesn’t become a long sword or anything like that. But A short sword would automatically become a better short sword if I research tech that improves is in order to remove the complexity of having to “upgrade” units. However, the cost of keeping a soldier in the field will be fairly high and since soldiers come from population, there’s a real down side to keeping throngs of soldiers idle.
In addition, by building roads, my caravans will arrive a lot quicker (3X faster). Similarly, I have to keep my supply lines secure.
This also opens the door for a lot more trading. Rather than just having “food” you can have “crops”. Crops are processed into food and can be traded with other civilizations or used by special buildings (Inns, restaurants, etc.) to increase prestige (which adds to influence).
It also allows players to have the game be very simple (just keep everything local) or highly sophisticated (have weaponry go through multiple processes – a magic sword processed by a Aereon Forge doubles its damage. The town with the Aereon forge is the one that would get on the priority list of magic swords and the Aereon blades produced would be sent to the town with the barracks that is producing your “Night Guard” or whatever you call your designed unit.
But in this way, there’s no real UI other than providing players the ability to close down shops in a city or expedite their priority to get more stuff sent to them. The player remains the king/emperor and not a logistics manager but at the same time is the architect for success of their kingdom’s economy if they so choose.
UPDATE: 5/23/2009
Camp #4: Quarter To Three concept
Having read a lot of posts both here and QuarterToThree we’ve thought of another way to do it that might be interesting.
2. Resources can be processed into other resources.
3. Controlling a resource automatically makes it available throughout your empire at a basic level. The more resources you control, the more that basic level is provided.
4. If there is a road to a city that connects you to where the resource is provided, that city gets a bonus amount of that resource.
5. Cities can build improvements that have caravans deliver bonus amounts of that resource to that city from the source.
6. Cities can optionally build warehouses whose only affect is that they can store caravan deliveries for later use. I.e. if I’m not currently building death knights, I can store caravans of “stuff” so that when I do build them, I instantly get the bonus at that point.
I want my army to be filled with trained knights who have plate mail, steel swords, plate helmets, etc. Those things are expensive. If I control an iron deposit, I can build them though any town with a barracks. Let’s say it will take 30 turns to create that unit. 10 of those turns is the training of the soldier and the other 20 is the production of the equipment. If I control 2 iron deposits, that production is knocked down to 18. If I have a road that connects this town to the the iron resource (directly or indirectly) then I can knock it down another turn for each resource.
I can also build a blacksmith shop. By doing this, caravans will be sent from the iron resource production area to the town with the armory. When that caravan arrives, it will reduce the time even further.
Similarly, if I want to make a magic sword that requires Aegeon crystal to be turned into a magic potion then as soon as I build 1 Alchemist lab in any town, then any town can build magic swords at a base level. If I build 2 alchemist labs, I won’t get any further bonus unless I control more than 1 Aegeon crystal.
So basically, it’s a much simpler system that provides fairly straight forward bonuses for players who want to create a more sophisticated economy.
To be honest I like camp 1, It remind somewhat of the good settler games (2,3 and 4ish)
I would love to see the same sort of system again where it was initially complex to set up, but once it was up and running you rarely had to look at until there was a change in conditions. Its the perfect example of an elegant sophisticated economic system.
You could go on raids in that too to steal stuff.
That being said I would go with system one during the beta and then ajust the system based on feedback (its easier to go from complex to simple - I think)
double post
BTW, since one idea behind Elemental is to allow good moddability, I think that camp #1 with everything is a ressource can allow more freedom on modding than camp 2.
That way, there won't be any difference on, for example, how griffins are in the game: they can be found in wilderness (like horse), breed through magical means (magically fusion an eagle and a lion for example), traded with another empire or whatever. it will still be a ressource.
Everything handled as ressource will surely mean more interesting diplomacy choices. You could help an ally with giving flaming +2 sword or magical crystal
I am generally for the complex option, for several reasons. First of all, I like the idea of being able to specialise cities, effectively "outsourcing" production; this also lets you customise the way your economy is built, letting you either spread out your resource production, or put all your eggs in one well defended basket with megacities manufacturing everything from swords to potions. However, I don't like the slider approach to the interface, and managing exports from every producing city or mine will indeed be cumbersome and tedious; I believe that it would make much more sense for exports to be managed according to demand. For example, I've just put an order to build swords in one of my cities, so the nearest iron ore mine is automatically comissioned to ship to that city. If that mine is already shipping to another city and thus cannot meet my needs, a window would pop up and let me manually select the amount that is shipped to each city. Additionally, there should be an optional button that enables me to manually select the mine that I want to receive the resources from, similar to the system in Civ IV which enables you to select which tiles your city exploits for resources.
The idea behind this system is that if I don't want to fiddle with numbers and shipping routes, I can just order whatever I need to be produced and let the game automatically decide for me where the resources come from, according to proximity and available production.
I also think that for the complex approach to work, it is absolutely crucial that shipping routes be plainly visible. For example, when I comission a prodution, the mine whence resource are delievered should be highlighted, and there should be an overlay that enables me to view all shipping routes, colour coded according to resource. Or even better, have a tab that displays a visualisation of your economy as a web of production and export, much like the map in the first picture.
For 1 to be effective, a good governer system is imperative. Perhaps the best idea would be for everything to start automatically, with the option of changing it. For example:
You build a zzz mine at xxx
The resource is automatically assigned to a nearby town/city, with preference given to larger and more developed towns (or ones with better industries).
A message comes up on the screen - yyy is now receiving zzz from xxx, with a button you can press to get to a resource management screen. Here you can see what resources are going where and change whatever you like.
Perhaps you could also do a kind of governers thing where you automatically get resources within a reasonable area assigned to where you want them (like your manufacturing capital near the enemy border)
As a lot of people have said, 1 would be vastly better if it was well implemented. But then again we are mostly all strategy game fanatics who love complexity, so maybe we are slightly biased...
Camp 1, but only if it doesn't require micromanagement every single turn to achieve good performance.
This is what I was thinking.
Let's say I go to a town and start making swords. The game knows I have iron available from a mine somewhere, it can caravan it to that town (or ask me where I want to caravan it from, if I have multiple sources).
Now I go to another town, and look at what I can make. The game also knows I have a crystal mine, and the town in question has an alchemist. So +2 potions are an option.
Now if I go to a third town (or either of the first two), and look at what I can make. If the proper buildings are there, the game can look at everything I have and realize that I can make +2 magic swords because I have swords and +2 potions. Once again, when I say I want to make those, the game can ask me to say where I want the resouces to come from (or maybe just set it automatically to a source with excess supply and let me tweak it later if I need to).
Finally if I go to my border town and start making +5 crack soldiers with +2 magic swords, those swords can be shipped up. This is not a huge deal with a good UI. Where it wouldn't work is if before I can make swords, I have to go find the mine, and manually tell it where to send the ore. Then I have to do the same with the crystals. Then again with the swords and potions to make the magic swords, and once more to set up the soldiers.
(Capitalism 2 had that kind of system in multi-city games. It was often a case of 'I know I have Silicon somewhere, and I have a factory here to make CPUs, but where the hell is it?' In single-city games, the browser of what suppliers you had access to was simpler and so it was less annoying.)
What I don't like about the simple model is that it appears everything has to be focused on one town to make it work. So if I suddenly have to crank out a lot of soldiers, I'm going to negatively impact the population on what is a primary production hub. I don't want to do that, I want the fodder to come from some other less important town. I don't actually want my +2 magic sword town making soldiers at all if I can avoid it, it's busy making magic swords!
I think Camp #1 is fine as long as resources are transferred automatically. As i see it, Camp #1 doesn't have any argument in favor of manual logistics management. Also, even economic simulators like Settlers or 1701 AD use automatic resource logistics. Manual management is not fun and it doesn't make sense for a 4X game.
There may be some cost associated with resource logistics, like production time, cost or unit/building requirments (like MoO2 where you need transports so to transport food or population).
In addition, they argue that Elemental has so much other “stuff” to it (sophisticated diplomacy, tactical battles, quests, etc.) that many players might find they have to rely on AI governors which would put a heavy burden on having really “smart” AI.
A "smart" AI is a myth Everyone hated governors in MoO3, automated wagons in Colonization 2 are destroying resources etc. Also, if something can be done relatively well by a simple AI, then it's probably will be a boring task for players.
its the same argument about colonization and civ, i had few friends who loved colon and few who hated who you had to micro the economy in colon to be effective
on the other hand a too much simplified system like the resourses of civ suck on the long run, at the end a single resourse is too much powerful in civ, having a big resourse in capital city totally destroy the multiplayer and there are many other cases where a binary resourse will just make it in a luck game, not strategy game
i prefer a "sophisticated" system but i agree that can be hard sometimes, imo the point is having a sophisticated system who is handsome and easy to play, so my dream would be a very good interface that allow you to manage 90% of the economy in a easy way and WITH the chance to go deeper into details if you are really into it
an example i really loved was anno 1701, there the economy was about sophisticated with tons of resourse to micro, trade routes, both caravan and ships BUT the interface was so good and user friendly that you never noticed you were doing such a job, while for doing a single caravan route in colonization you had to a very tedious job who make the game lose its feeling
Hi all,
I think that the most ideal economic system is somewhere in between the two camps. I would like to suggest a system in which the player does not have to worry about stockpiles of crystals and pointy heads, but more on the bigger picture of the economy in her / her realm. The main task of the player should be to make sure that the right resources are in the right place, ie should not worry about the exact amount of resources but more on the flow of resources. For example, a player has a town with a nearby ore mine. Based on the size of the resource and the level of the mine, the structure gives the town an ore "flow" of +5. In the town, the player builds a blacksmith. This structure can in turn convert some of the ore to another resource, say 3 ore to 2 iron. Based on technology and structure level, other options might be available. For example, 2 iron ore to 1 steel, or 2 iron ore + 2 magic crystals to 1 kryptonite.
So based on the recource gathering sites and buildings a town gets a certain resource profile (+ 2 steel, + 2 wild horses, etcetera). In some kind of economic overview map the player can see this profile per town, and create "chains" of resource flows. Eg. one town could send + 2 horses to another town. These could then be added to the profile of that town, but lost obiously in the sending town. A negative flow then would shut down structures that require that resource. This would make raiding a very viable option, since disrupting resource chains could severly affect the economy.
Also, you could then base building options on the resource profile of a town. So one peasant archer would require a flow of +1 food and +1 wood, while a heavily armored knight would require +3 steel, +2 food and +1 warhorse. A town that does not meet those requirements can not build those units. Same could be true for buildings. So by flowing all resources to one location, one mega town could be made. OTOH players can also spread their resources, but this might stop them from making real high end units. Furthermore, it could allow economic heroes. A hero with the stable master trait might increase the conversion rate for horses --> warhorses, or a hero with the blacksmith trait reduces the amount or iron ore required to make steel.
Well, sorry for the long post, but I felt like giving my +2 cents.
For those wondering about resources, here's what were shooting for....
NATURALEarly Game: 3-7Mid Game: 8-12Late Game: 13-20
MANUFACTUREDEarly Game: 6-12 (2 Levels of Basic Helmet, Armor, Weapon, Shield, Greives, and Boots to equip on your units)Mid Game: 12-30 (4 level of above + some Accessories)Late Game: 31-50 (6 levels of above + more Accessories)
AND these manufactuing numbers are bare-bones...the moment you add axes, spears, daggers, etc into the mix, AND multiple magical equipment types, you can easily add around 40 to that final number.
So, late game Camp #1 (where EVERYTHING is a resource that gets shiped around) has you managing up to 110 types of resources (and possibly up to 9 resources on TURN 1!). Camp #2 has you managing a minimal (but fun) 20 resources in late game.
Can you tell which camp I'm in?
That said, I do beleive there's a better middle ground, but I fear setting up a system to even Macro-manage a mostly automated 110 resource system is going to be hellacious. And as much as it sounds proper, I really dont want to implement something one way and 'dumb it down' later....let's try to get it as correct as possible the first time through.
Man, managing 110 resources is just crazy I'm in camp 2 because:
- Honestly, (sorry Stardock) I don't believe any type of AI is going to be solving camp 1 problems well. In the end you are going to be forced to micro-manage it.
- This game has a loooot more going on than economy, I prefer complex battles rather than complex economy (and complex everything is a little too much).
Hey, mister! That is why your game is already a tad more expensive than usual. You get that hellacious work down!
My problem with colonization was we had to manually move the resources(or set up incredibily clunky automatic wagons). I don't expect that in Elemental. I expect traders to be doing it on their own. I am a king/emperor. I don't think as a King I would have a state controlled market system where I sort everything out.
I want to tell a particular town to build something. That town will make requests for the necessary resources itself and the other towns will send them, automatically. Hell, that transportation could even be abstracted behind the scenes, but it would be cool to see little trading traffic on my roads.
I think that camp 2 sounds more friendly, but the hardcore part of me yearns for part 1. The need to protect caravans would become very extreme, which could cause problems on large scale maps.
Unless there was a way to automate troops to patrol trade routes and automatically move to defend caravans from attackers, I can see it getting too frustrating.
I see no reason why Camp1 wouldn't work, except for possibly running out of resources (I mean when you're balancing 10 resources just to create 1 knight, and not all 10 can be found in 1 place)
I would vote on a middle ground. Only natural things count as resources (food, bears, iron) and a few select special resources that would require refining of a natural resource(iron + another metal = steel, steel + silver + gold + magic = orichalcum or adamantine, wool + dye = 'good' cloth), but not everything (swords, armor, other tools should be a requirement to 'train' somebody to use them, and be an expected part of the unit )
Then I vote we have 'hardcore' resource management, that dictates between camp 1 and 2's method of handling the caravans. It seems like it shouldn't be much trouble to have that be a toggle switch on game creation (to lose resource, rather than to recieve a penalty) .
Once a trade route is established, the resource should become available... straight-up (smugglers would get it through if nothing else) but it would start at the reduced rate/higher price. Once caravans started coming in, the 'penalty' would be removed and production would be able to process as normal. The caravans length of time between shipments should be scaled so that even with slight delays (weather for example?) the settlement would survive. another possibility is it would be scalled if possible to miss 1 shipment before it returns to the penalized production rate. The theory would be, even if the main caravan fails to get through (i.e. is attacked by something) there would still be some "clever folks" that could get it through 'off radar' but at a raised price and less quantity.
Added: are bears a natural resource? are "Trained War Bears" a 'manufactored' resource? I'd almost say camp 2 (or my proposed middle ground) because I wouldn't want to get bears to the field quickly
Ooh I'd definitely be in Camp 1, any long resource chains get me going
PS It seems the links on the images are the same, though I get the picture
I think you're looking at this entirely wrong:
Real question: can the AI handle system 1 as well, or almost as well, as a human can?
I'd like to know this before giving an answer.
That said, the problem with idea #2 is that how are you going to get the resources to make high-end units?
How many cities would have horses+metal?
How about an idea #3? Going to propose something new.
Resources give you a vector of resource production. A mine might give +10 iron.
To make a unit, all the resources would have to be in supply to the town.
A civ cannot have units in production that require excess resources per turn then what they have, unless they buy them.
I'd suggest having iron export, wood export functions like Kohan had in this regard.
BTW: having a system that encourages the creation and usefulness of cannon fodder would be a good thing. Generally, every TBS game I've played such as AoW- what ends up happening is players go towards spamming one unit primarily, usually high-level cavalry, to win.
I'd really like to see a game where quantity counted as well as quality. 10 foot soldiers might not be able to beat a dragon, but should be able to take out a knight at least.
I'd say camp 1. If only because it's easier to simplify later on than to make things more intricate. It was also a lot of fun in Colonisation. If you can keep it at a managable level.
It kind of depends on how many different types of base resources you have though. 4 or 5 type and things stay quite managable, with intricate supply networks only needed for the most advanced/powerful/rare units in your army. 20+ base resources (and an exponential number of refinement steps/combinations) and even the AI govenors will go nuts trying to manage it all.
You can keep things managable via storehouses and a lot of automation and specialisation though. (Specialisation: the town of Swordton has a swordsmith, it will turn iron from the storehouse into swords as long as there is iron available, and up to the maximum share of available iron you've set for it in the swordsmiths only slider. it is NOT an "armoury" that has sliders for swords, hammers, lances, pikes, spears etc. etc.)
Exemple: You have just told the small border town of Fort Hamlet to build Turbo Knights consisting of Swords, Armour, Shields and Magic Horses. The town itself has none of these resources, however it does have the Advanced Training Academy you need for an advanced unit like this (lots of items + some magic). The game now automatically starts shipping in the required resources to make your Turbo Knights: Swords from Swordton, Shields and Armour from the big central city of St. Armoury (where you've seriously built up the armoury production) and Magic Horses from the Magical Menagery at Enchantryville. (which, as a result of having a magic horse-breeder, ships in normal horses from the town of One Horse Hamlet)
Note that you do not actually need to build a unit for shipping to start, you can also simply instruct the storehouse of a town to start collecting certain products, and the supply system will respond as if, say, Magic Swords were a unit. The interface for this would be identical to the Swordsmith being told to make Swords yes/no/percentage of supply.
You can, of course, bar supply from certain towns to where you're ordering construction, and set sliders for consumption of total supply. Exemple: You are shipping in Swords for your Turbo Knights from Swordton instead of from Bladesville (which is much closer than Swordton) because the transport route from Bladesville to Fort Hamlet runs largely along the border with the Evil Enemy, and you'd get raided to death. Swordton also supplies St. Garrison and Forestville, but since these are far from your borders, you set Fort Hamlet to recieve 66% of Swordton's supply.
Oh, and for the love of god don't actually show caravans moving (the screen popping to a zillion locations as all the units are moved in most TBS as the turn ends drives me nuts) the position they are in each turn with a projected travel path if you select them is plenty.
CAmp 1: Sophisticated sounds like a lot more fun. It offers a lot more freedom and that's something I'm expecting to get in Elemental.
Well, I don't really need to explain why, almost every single person explained it before me ^^
I'm firmly in camp 1.
The world has enough "dumbed down" games. You're Stardock, I rely on you for my complication fix.
Camp 1 delivers a Stardock game, camp 2 is more like something EA would go for. Maybe you would discover "mass market TBS" but more likely you would discover "TBS players like complicated games".
cheers
Kul
So, late game Camp #1 (where EVERYTHING is a resource that gets shiped around) has you managing up to 110 types of resources (and possibly up to 9 resources on TURN 1!).
So this will actually give you something to do during turn 1?
Great! In other turn based strategy games the first turns are usually very boring.
On the other hand -- there wouldn't be much managing to do, would there? Unless you start with more than one city, you wouldn't be able to move resources anywhere.
Camp #2 has you managing a minimal (but fun) 20 resources in late game.
I think the point is, there wouldn't be much managing involved.
You assign a natural resource to a city. That's it. That's not 'management'.
It is like saying there is diplomacy in the game and all it involves is your opponents making offers and you being able to say yes or no.
Apparently Camp #2 has 'fun' resources. I would love to hear in what way these resources are more fun than any of the resources of Camp #1
As described above, neither "Camp 1" nor "Camp 2". The first scenario is just complex and the 2nd ridiculously simple minded.
To me a sophisticated resource/production model is one that means you have to make interesting and meaningful choices, not one that means you have to fiddle with sliders all the time.
Such as "I've built a town to mine ore, but it's on the front lines. Do I build production facilities there, and risk them being captured if someone takes the town, or do I ship the ore back to a more central production city and incur big delays." If you have to ship ore to a city to make swords for troops, and then ship troops back to that front-line ore producing city - that's an meaningful decision.
Wish I wasn't headed out the door for work, since I feel that I haven't fully described what I want (but something more like Tridus/Mythor described), but I felt I needed to join the discussion since a gutted resource model (e.g. Camp 2) wouldn't be fun (to me).
There's a couple other reasons why that happens:
1. AoW is limited to 8 units in a stack. Do you want to go into battle with 8 Footmen, or 8 Dread Reapers? Even if the more accurate cost comparison would be 8 Dread Reapers vs 16 Footmen, 8 Archers, and 2 Cannon, the game doesn't let you have that fight very often.
2. Bad cost scaling. One Dread Reaper costs 15 upkeep (gold). Two tier 2 units (eg: light cavalry, not Knights) costs 18 upkeep. One Dread Reaper is FAR more powerful then two light cavalry.
Elemental has a chance to avoid both of those mistakes.
Without going into all the details, since many people have already expressed the same feelings, I'm in this camp as well. I WANT a very complex system to get lost in for endless hours. The issue for me will be the GUI for controlling those systems. I'm looking for a STARS! on hyperdrive for this game. Now with that said I would suggest having a simplified econ model for people to chose at the start of the game. In short I would design each complex eight to step system with a one or two step simplified mirror system.
I'm no programmer but I dont see why the community cant have it both ways especially if the complex system is already done.
This is also what I had in mind.
I don't really have time right now but this is how i feel resources should be broken done catagory wise
non-refine natural resources
resources that you don't need to do anything to use - like horse
refine natural resources
resources that you need to refine to do stuff to - like iron
usable refined resources
refined resources you can use - like swords which needs (copper and tin) or (iron) etc to make
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