With regards to the topic title, I do not mean the ragequitters themselves. I don't have a problem with anyone who leaves a game early because of an impossible to win scenario. My problem is that these people are demonized and vilified. Someone even posted a thread to say they had started a site for a banlist of people who ragequit. Leaving/conceding a round that you are most definitely going to lose is acceptable in every other game I've played and this is the reason most people leave a round early. There are a few who will leave before the game is decided(and yes these people screw their teams over and I don't like them anymore than you do), but they are not nearly numerous enough to generate the number of complaints and attitude I see around here.
So what happens in demigod because of this attitude? SomeRandomNewbie starts playing demigod. He doesn't come from DOTA or wherever the hell this ridiculous attitude spawned and sees no problem with leaving when the winning team has an irreversible edge. Maybe he even thinks the replacement ai will actually do better than him. He loses his first few matches for whatever reason and leaves them all before his citadel is actually destroyed. Someone he played with starts telling everyone that SomeRandomNewbie is a ragequitter. SomeRandomNewbie starts getting kicked from games for a reason that doesn't even make sense to him. SomeRandomNewbie stops playing demigod because as far as he's concerned, the community is utter trash. This is a completely plausible scenario(I've seen hosts kick when someone just accuses a connector of being a ragequitter) and if it starts happening consistently, it will stagnate the growth of the community. There are a few things on gpg and stadock's end that need to change as well but the community side is more important. If things like a concede button are added but the stigma of leaving remains, they will achieve nothing whatsoever.
Even if you don't change your attitude, you should at the very least change the way you approach this issue. Rather than coming on the forums after the fact and bitching that player X fed the enemy a billion gold then ragequit, you should ask people to stay in the game even if it looks like your team is going to lose. It is no different than asking your allies to cooperate with you strategically. If they just ignore you, then at least you know that you're blacklisting an asshole when you complain about them to others.
(sorry, double post -- forum glitch)
well, when you reach perma status on everyone's banlist, I'll be sure to remind you to "suck it up"
*shrug* If the community goes that way, I'll be gone long before that point. There are plenty of fun things I can do with my time that don't require me to deal with this sort of attitude.
In Pantheon games, however, you are totally screwing over your teamates with impunity.
Once your team is losing beyond any hope of recovery, I think it's totally acceptable to bow out, and this is by far the majority of the quitting I've seen (although that's usually on the other team ). The only problem I see is that the current version of the game doesn't support any sort of coordinated "we give up" command. There's also a social problem if one teammate wants to surrender once the game is pointless, and the other one wants to play it out. I don't think you can avoid some of that with random teams; to my mind it's the same as one guy wanting to push up the left side and the other wanting to push up the right side...ideally they should agree on what to do, but with random teams sometimes that breaks down and they do their own thing instead.
I should add that I almost always hang on till the end of the game (the only exception is when I find myself on the wrong side of a 2v1; that's an exercise in pointlessness and I have no teammate to worry about). I just don't have a problem with people who want out once they're losing, even if they're on my team -- if we're going to lose anyway and my teammate drops out, all it does is speed up the inevitable. As far as I can tell, the people who don't like the idea of conceding feel that their "fun" hinges on being able to smack people around as some sort of reward for winning. As one of them put it:
Yeah, it's kind of fun once I've doubled everyone else's level and gold to go around with five artifacts slaughtering them, but I don't have any right to force them to stay in the game and take it. And if I just want a punching bag, the AI will do as well.
I must agree
On topic:
I think that if a player leavs mid game there should be some kind of mild punishment, and if its repeated a nummber of times over a time period they should recive a more severe punishment.
We cant have an instant ban on ppl leaving games....
Note: i did not read the first post, just saying what i think of the matter
You guys are terrible.
wow nice plan , then the somerandomnoobs are gonna stop playing and i get better opponents im surely gonna join that banlist thingie and ban a lot of new players
Agree 100% with poster.
I'd put this at the end but I'm guessing it wouldn't be read by those it applies to. If you're too impatient to read a long paragraph, please gtfo. Posting things like "wall of text" and "tldr" is nothing short of idiotic trolling. I split the first paragraph because there was a convenient place to do so, but you guys really need to develop a longer attention span because it's entirely possible for a paragraph that size to contain a single, thoroughly developed point.
As much as I hate abusing quotes, the replies I want to address are on the previous page so...
To me, the solution is the implementation of Arranged Team pantheon games. Once those come about, people will play RT at their own risk.
This would of course be a great thing and it is very much needed. Particularly since it would actually make pantheon a viable competitive option. That said, this doesn't address the flaws in the community's approach. Ragequitters are not monsters and the way the community approaches them is harmful to its own growth because people who do not know the unwritten rules(basically newer players) of the game will get screwed over. It's actually more harmful to the community than just that because any time you orchestrate a witch hunt, people get hypersensitive about who could be a witch and a lot of people who haven't done anything objectionable get shafted by paranoia.
If you are playing custom, meh. Who really cares if you quit. IMHO, in a game like this custom = casual. Quitters should be tolerated if not expected. I personally strive not to do it... but that's me.
I would argue the opposite. Pantheon and skirmish are the least competitive modes right now. Once you can do AT on pantheon and/or skirmish they will become the competitive modes, but Demigod relies so heavily on teamplay that to develop competitive play, you need to be a premade team(actually this is true in just about any team game). If you're in pantheon, you should expect and accept whoever the system teams you with. You know going in that you could get anyone from the best player in pantheon to some moron who dies once at the start and quits.
Most ragequits happen long before the game is decided, which has ruined a lot games for me. Plus from what I've noticed, newbies tend to stick around till the end, so this SomeRandomNewbie doesn't make much sense to me. It's the "experienced" players that tend to quit very easily, even though they still had plenty of chances for a comeback.
My experience thus far has been the opposite. The people who leave before the game is decided are the ones that die 2-3 times in the first few minutes, and even in these games, it's unlikely they'll make a comeback unless they have some sort of epiphany of how to play the game. I play custom though for the reason I mentioned in the above paragraph so maybe it's a pantheon thing(most effective way to gain favor is probably to play lopsided matches in which you're winning). If this is the case, then the so called ragequitters are just playing to win the most stats instead of playing to win the game(in which case the issue is entirely in gpg's hands to fix and banlists still don't make sense because you're punishing people for playing competitively).
Umm, I agree and disagree with the OP. It's a game, do what you want. That's really the bottom line. However, that doesn't mean you should just do whatever you think is fun and to hell with everybody else. In other games it's called "griefing" (Shooting your teammates, etc), and in this game, leaving means you are most likely going to lose. It's the most annoying early-mid game before the game is even decided yet.
Too many people don't understand the ebb-and-flow of the game to know when you've lost, or whether the opponent is just making a good push. I personally couldn't care less if a teammate/opponent leaves at the end of the game, once its clearly lost. I DO care when a teammate/opponent leaves early/mid game, leaving me (or my opponent) hung out to dry with no chance to win. It's a team game, and when your teammates leave, there's a good chance you're done for.
That being said, people also need to understand the difference between "ragequitting" and "quitting." In the case of SomeRandomNewbie, he quit calmly and rationally, because he figured he was doing more harm than good. That's quitting. Leaving when your citadel's swarmed with giants and catapaults and at half health: Quitting (though, I'd rather you just stuck it out, what are you going to get done in the two minutes before the game's over?) Leaving at the first kill? Ragequitting. The quitting which (I think) should be discouraged is the quitting "Because I'm playing a game for winning and winning only, and unless I'm pounding my opponent, I'm leaving." That, I think, is the distinction we need to make. I agree with the scenarios the original poster laid out, but there are also people who quit and just suck the fun from the game. Also, banlists in general are stupid, in my humble opinion.
EDIT: Banlists are stupid, in my humble opinion, because of all of the reasons already pointed out on this thread, not just trying to baselessly express my opinion.
I don't know, I don't have a problem with ragequitting tbh, bit annoying but what can you do? If I find myself a man down due to a ragequit I just chalk it up to experience and go join another game, coz frankly playing on with an AI is a waste of time unless your opponents are horrendous.
I do find it funny that here as in DotA (and Left4Dead for that matter) that most of the folks that complain about ragequitting are generally pitting a premade team on voice comm against some random dudes - the randoms generally have not got a hope, and they probably have better things to do than be a punchbag so someone can boost their epeen.
Actually, rage quiters should be taken out and shot
Just had an awsome game, it was tight and although we had more kills, they seemed better organised. A guy died for the 4th time after getting 2 kills and quit on us. So our side steam rolled the remaining 2 people. If he had of stayed, no idea who would have won but it would have been very tight.
The best way to handle leavers is to eliminate AI filler and drop one of their opponents to even the teams. It is pretty much the only way to salvage the game at that point. Give the leaver a loss and the guy dropped to even a win as if they'd played each other 1v1.
I think that's as fair as it could get for everyone.
You don't want to lose games because you get paired with someone who leaves (or just gets disconnected) like that. You probably don't want to play a lop-sided match or a match against solely the AI either.
This approach would remedy all of the above, bring joy to the world, and peace to the middle east.
Who decides what is an "impossible to win scenario"? You? What if you're wrong? What if you could have won, but since you left now it's impossible for the remaining people to ever accomplish?
And now he's ruined the game for each and every other person in it. He *should* be ridiculed.
The critical problem in this train of logic is that you are only caring about yourself. *I* don't think we can win. "My" fun. No. The moment you started up a multiplayer game with other people you made a committment to both try your best to win but also to stay the course. You don't start up a game of Dota when you know you're going to have to leave in 25 minutes. That just disrespects every other person there.
If you don't want to deal with this responsibility there are innumerable great single player games on every gaming platform you can play instead. Online multiplayer - it's not about you anymore - it's about the team.
If the team agrees that the game is over and they're giving up, sure, now you can leave.
If Newb X comes onto Demigod with a "it's all about me, I'll quit when I want" attitude towards multiplayer games I have no problem if he is put off by the "elitist" community and leaves in disgust. After all, he would have never been a part of that community to begin with.
This "ridiculous attitude" was spawned in the first game that ever featured the ability to play with people you don't know, and every game since.
In my experience, nothing ruins a game worse than a leaver at the worst possible moment. You'll never know if you could have won, because now it is impossible. It's worse than losing. And winning against a leaver team doesn't feel good either - a hollow victory.
Leavers are worthless. You won't get better at the game by leaving. I have no sympathy or pity.
+1 for getting at the root issue behind rage quitting.
I think to provide a solution, and a justifiable punishment for rage quitting, people need to understand the mentality behind it.
I want to read it. Can someone edit this for me?
Like, maybe a paragraph after every thought progression. Anyone? Please?
Otherwise, still, TLDR... but want to.
All you can do is damage control though, which what I am suggesting.
Until my patent gets approved for bitchslapping someone over RDP/TCP protocols there just isn't a reason to focus on *punishment* which seems to be what people are fixated on.
It seems like mitigating the impact on other players is much more amicable. You won't risk false-positives and you'll gain more by not resigning yourself to a complete waste of time whose only reward is vindication through alienation and ostracization.
Edit (add): There will hopefully always be an endless stream of brand new rage quitters. If not, it means there aren't new players. Since there will be people inevitably moving on, this means the death of the game. This means banlists, stats, and karmic bitchslapping will never net you the same gain as salvaging the game in progress.
The problem with that approach is that you/we are saying it is ok to be disrespectful and self serving. We need to be taking to approach of making such behavior undesirable, and ultimately ween it out of the equation.
The arguement of net lag and disconnection issues do not hold enough weight to counter the need for punishing irresonsible and malicious behavior. If you are truely playing in the manner in which the game is intended, your record will reflect this.
If you find yourself in a situation where somehow your record (due to legitimate disconnects) has degraded to unfavorable standards, then perhaps one should stop playing online games until they determine what their connection issues are and resolve them.
You are essentially asking those of us who play the game in the expected manner and have proper machines and assests to do so, to be punished. Are we not exactly who the game was made for?
Exactly, I could care less if people rage quit, crappy players will always be crappy players, if they can't learn from losing so be it. But all matches should count and be recorded. Lag, regequit, crash, concede, doesn't matter. It's a loss. It happens, get over it, if you are a decent player a few losses here and there shouldn't effect anything (Referring to the tournament).
My experience with rage quiting is that a teammate will die once or twice and possibly someone else from our team will die once or twice within the first 5 minutes. That's about 90% of the quitters I see. And this is completely rediculus because normally we still end up winning even with the AI and those first few deaths. It's really a lot easier to make a come back then most people think. Just because someone gets an extra 3k gold doesn't give them an auto win button. Also just because they get giants doesn't give them an auto win button even if you're still at war score 3. I've had at least 2 game so far where this has happened because we were getting completely owned, but then they got careless and we out leveled them with all the creeps and pushed them back and won or at least very nearly won the games.
So rage quiting is really stupid and it does hurt games because most of the games I've been in that anyone quit after thinking they were losing, it was actually a close game, but then they left and we'd dominate or be dominated.
But I have to agree that "rage quit" is thrown around too much. Unfortunately that may just be because that's exactly what's happening and what other term could we use?
By the way rage quiting is not quiting when you have giants hitting your citadel while its at 10% life or what not or if the entire other team has the all father ring at 10 minutes, its quiting usually within the first 10 minutes due to a few early deaths or losing a bunch of towers really fast.
And seriously guys, that block of text is nothing. Go read a book or something. For those complaining, you either have bad eyes(thats ok) or all you do is get the books with pictures and short captions, or maybe its just cartoons for you.
I agree. More people need to understand this.
I think it's often mistaken that rage quitting is used to describe leaving under any circumstances.
First of all ragequitting is not a fenomenon unique to demigod.
Secondly, ragequitting does not mean leaving when you cant possibly win, it is getting angry and leaving because you were killed. Imagine leaving a team-game of starcraft because your first marine was killed by the opposing teams zergling. Thats what ragequitting is.
Quitting games is your fundamental right. If the game has been lost due to a poor player or what not you are not obligated to finish.
I agree with OP. His OP was spaced fine, it's when it is one single wall of text that it is considered annoying. Some of you people are mentally retarded. I read it just fine.
If you're leaving a game, the only poor player is you.
I agree it's often mistaken which is yet another reason I think mitigation is a better approach.
I don't think salvaging what can be salvaged of the experience is condoning their selfishness.
They should definitely get a loss, and if people really want some kind of metric to use as a witchhunt for losers, I guess the detrimental effects of that should just be weighed against the benefit. As I see it, the 'benefit' is nothing more than an abstract feeling of vindication because as I said, when there are no new griefers/quitters, the game is dead or dying anyway.
Think of the FPS world. What I am saying is comparable to a live admin kicking a cheater/griefer to salvage the immediate experience for the other players rather than relying solely on some sort of automated system (VAC).
Granted, the automated system is nice, it just isn't nearly as beneficial in improving the experience as addressing the problem immediately.
The root of the problem is that the imbalance in teams caused by the leaver ruins the game for those that stick around. Right now, the end result is playing out a crappy match or everyone leaving to find another game, likely with nothing to show for it but wasted time. If teams got autobalanced in the manner I suggested, then some people would get to finish a likely passable game experience, the leaver gets a loss, and one person gets a win and moves on to find another game.
How do you suggest balancing a match in progress? By allowing new players to join running games? That would certainly be nice.
But I disagree that the root of the probelm is the aftermath of leaving, but that it is actually leaving itself, and more specificly the mentality of the rage quitter feeling justified to personally gratify himself at the expense of all other players in the game for purely personal reasons.
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