This is another one for the "game balance" and "game design" department and it is in regards to the skill mist.
First off, it's a very interesting skill. I like it. I don't want it nerfed or anything like that unless absolutely necessary. However, I encountered the use of it in a game last night on the map Exile that was nearly gamebreaking.
First the scenario:
It was a 4v4 on exile. It was a 46 minute long match (give or take) that was fairly tight up until the last 5 to 10 minutes. Basically, we were all at level 20 or within a few levels of it and both sides had giants going with my side dominating towards the latter part. I was working a Regulus along with our Sedna on a final push. We were held at bay by their Reg and Torchbearer. Between their giants, pults, mines, and flame aoe's it was kind of a stalemate. What I noticed after a while was that our giants never made any forward progress to help us in our push.
So, I took a stroll back to our base and found their Erebus in a PERMANENT mist state at the critical choke point where essentially nothing could pass. The gist of it was that between their reinforcements and his constantly respawning Nightwalkers a "front" was created right over his mist. Our reinforcements would fight there, get the aoe dot, die, and respawn new Nightwalkers.
It was quite ingenious and worked well.
So, I thought, "at 125 man per second, he can't stay in mist forever". Well, I was wrong. When dps'ing down his creep waves (that never seemed to end - partly because his 3 other team-mates were free to handle flag capping and stemming our assault) I thought I'd just camp him for a bit and nail him when he came out of mist. To my surprise he remained mainly in mist the rest of the game. Only leaving it to push forward bit by bit to our citadel. However, his mist "up-time" was well over 95% of his gameplay at this point.
For all it's seeming cheapness, it won the game. Gratz. Kudos to that guy. We lost. Thought I felt like I wasted 46 minutes of my life to 10 minutes of Mist abuse, it wasn't the end of the world.
But it got me thinking - "how the hell did that guy stay in Mist so long?" I've dabbled at Erebus and I know at low levels w/ low mana regen you can't stay in mist long at all.
So I figured I'd test it out and ran a couple of test games where I played the comp and started at level 20 w/ 25,000 gold and high gold regen. I wanted to see what you had to buy to get the high mana regen rates to sustain mist. I found that it wasn't that hard.
Basically it goes like this:
1.) Mist cost is 125 mana per second, while in mist.
2.) Erebus at level 20 (no gear) base mana regen: 7.77 per second (unbuffed)
so approx net cost of mist at this level is 118 mana per second
3.) With these items (all non artifacts) - less than 15K gold (Hungarling, Vlemish, Plenor, Plate visor, and Vinling helm),
112.12 mana per second.
approx net cost of mist is now 13 mana per second and you are sitting at 6884 mana. You can now live in mist for 8 minutes and 48 seconds if you start with a full mana bar.
4.) Drop the el cheapo plate visor and switch to Cloak of Flames (a 9400 gold exchange) and you now have 145.85 mana per second regen plus 7934 total mana.
This will cost you about 23,000 gold total and only 20,300 if you get the price reduction favor item. 23,000 gold by level 20 is not that much as most games people are usually getting 30000 to 40000 gold per game at a minimum, and that's without hitting level 20.
At this point, Erebus can become unkillable at a moment's notice, indefinitely, with a nasty AOE effect. If you camp him, you stand to waste a lot of time. If you don't he just moves on to his next choke point, flag cap, or portal cap, with virtual impunity.
So I gotta ask: Is this intended?
The only down side of this is that you now have now slots for +health or +speed except for favor slot. However, you can counter both of those w/ a speed wand and heart of life trinket (not to mention never ending bite, bats, and stun).
Now, if this is not intended here are a few fixes I can think of:
1.) With each pulse, the mana cost grows so that after a period of time, it well exceeds any theoretical mana regen state, forcing Erebus to leave mist and open himself up to attack.
2.) Erebus can be "shocked out of mist" after a 20 seconds or so of mist by any DG with a stun ability as well a consumable made available at the shop for DG's that don't have a stun.
3.) Erebus can be targeted in mist if you drop the "see invis" ward.
4.) Cut down or eliminate mana regen in mist state.
===============
As a side note, I was able to win a game on Cataract vs AI using mist only when pairing it w/ full buffs to Nightwalkers and Vampiric Aura. All I had to do was mist where the enemy's reinforcements tracked and use my Nightwalkers to take down towers. Then all I did was upgrade to priests and camped his citadel in mist. This took down both of his lanes of reinforcements and supplied me w/ never ending Nightwalkers.
I did not put one point into bite, bats, or charm. My only activateable skill was mist. That's it. Granted, this was only vs. Easy AI and we started at level 20 but oddly enough the AI wasn't too bad that game. It never died and actually managed to cap my portals a couple of times (of course I had to recap them). But once I was able to get his reinforcement lanes choked w/ mist, all my reinforcements overwhelmed his base.
This kind of mirrored what happened to me originally on exile.
An interesting way to win, at any rate
Anyhow, I just wanted to this write-up for several reasons.
1.) Ask the basic questions: Are the devs aware of this? and... Is this working as intended?
2.) If it's working at intended, I'd like to give Erebus players a head's up as to what's achievable with mist and mana regen that's not too hard to obtain in this game. On the flip side, if you see an Erebus player who seems to never have to leave mist, then he probably doesn't have to. You'll have to warn your team mates and adjust to that.
Finally, if this is working as intended, I have to ask "what kind of game design allows one character out of 8 to remain invulnerable indefinitely?"
well you make a very good point.
but the odds of one guy actually having enough money and buying that stuff and being lvl 20 are like .1% per game.
the easiest way would be to cut mana regen in mist, or even just to cut the total mana regen rate.
Umm...I just explained how for 23,000 gold you can do just that. Most games I see people are generating well over 30,000 gold and if you get in a decent amount of hero kills, 40,000 to 50,000 gold by endgame. 23,000 gold will take a litlle while, but but by level 17 to 20 is very doable. I myself hit level 20 about every 5th game or so and hit level 17 and above at least ever other or every third game. Not to mention, you don't need to be a high level to get 20K plus gold. Like I said, if you look at the scoreboard, people are hitting 30K plus gold on most games. At least that's the case in my games and I play mainly on Cataract, Prison, Exile, and Leviathan.
I'm not sure where you come up with this 0.1% statistic. That means people are only hitting level 20 in 1 in a 1000 games . That just doesn't compute. But then again, 73.45% of all statistics are made up on the spot...
I do think mist needs a max time of like 10-20 seconds or something before he automatically pops out of it and it goes back to CD.
BTW, kudos for an excellent OP. It was long, but interesting, well-researched, and broken up well.
yeah, thats 23,000 he could spend on him surviving and killing. In order to kill a person you usually have to have decent armour, and he also has to spend stuff on his other minions.(killing=gold btw)
you tested it out starting with 25k but have you played a game with Erubus and actually tried it???
The exchange rate for selling items is 80%; it is entirely feasible for a demi killing machine like erebus to get assassination EQ first then sell it for mass mana eq once the game settles down for the mist semi-exploit.
No, but obviously the guy I faced did and he won the game.
If proof of the pudding is in the tasting, then that guy was tasting some very sweet pudding.
And like another guy said, you can always sell off stuff and re-buy.
Finally, most of the mana regen gear I listed is pretty basic bread and butter stuff. With 7.77 base unbuffed mana regen at level 20, you are going to have a fair amount of the gear I listed anyway, regardless of your build. Erebus lives and kills on his spells and therefore needs mana regen no matter what he's doing.
The only pricey items are the Hungarling and the Cloak of Flames, and you don't even need to cloak of flames for 8 minutes and 48 seconds of semi-permanent mist.
It's creative, but I doubt it's intended. Perhaps they could lower the mana cost on mist but remove all mana regeneration while in mist form.
well eternal i urge you to try it in actual pvp. then report back.
Eternal great post. I just learned a little bit more about Erebus now.
Like I said, I saw it in real-time pvp. It worked. There's nothing theoretical about this.
Furthermore, the mana regen rates I'm talking about are easy to reproduce and demonstrate. Again, there's nothing subjective or theoretical about it.
There's just nothing to debate on whether permanent mist is possible or not or whether it's too prohibitively expensive. It's NOT.
So, the real question you are asking is whether permanent mist is actually useful at end game. Obviously it was in the game I made reference to. I don't have to "test it". It was tested on me, I saw how it worked, and I lost because of it.
Does that meant it will work all the time or generally useful? NO. The reason it worked so well on exile is becaue the main reinforcement spawns go through one choke point. I could see this as not being as effective on maps that have a spread out and porous access to the citadel.
You are further asking that if an Erebus player uses all his gear slots for mana regen is he otherwise gimping himself. Yes, mainly in health and speed. However, if he is unkillable at will then the health issue is not as big of a deal as you might think. Furthermore, he will have non-stop mana for a spammable bite, bats, and stun if he choose to have a skill-based build (which is most common). With a speed wand, anklets in the favor spot, and bats, mobility will not be a problem either. Then finally, you'd have to consider damage outlay and whether that would be gimped. With spammable bite and a permanent AOE DOT at will, not to mention bats whenever coolddown is up, damage will be fairly robust. I guess you won't have gloves and a mage blade or other dps artifacts like this, so no you won't be a prime hero killer.
However, at end game, when giants are up, ground control and advancing those giants is perhaps more important than hero kills. And if you can be invulnerable at will, being a hero killer is less than a prime concern. If you force someone to camp your mist, then you have effectively taken them out of the game anyway.
So no, I don't intend to "get back to you" on this but I will say that I agree somewhat with your implicit premise that this mana regen plus mist strategy isn't gamebreakingly effective over a variety of maps and circumstances.
However, the reality is that it is very easily achieveable and can demonstrate interesting and effective results.
The way I would fix it - IF it needed to be fixed - is to leave the Mist effect alone, and simply take away the ability to spawn nightwalkers. That would leave creeps free to pass through the mist. (taking damage on the way, of course.)
I personally like option 3.) Erebus can be targeted in mist if you drop the "see invis" ward.
I think it would bring a little more stratergy to the game.
Try upgrading your creeps armor. Mist is just a fluff skill. It will not kill upgraded creeps by itself. At best it is an evasion skill that is useful for dodging a killing blow or shrugging off a spit, at worst it's a slow creep killer.
Yes, "perma" mist is atainable, and very easily, however, your argument that Erebus can simply bite more to make up for lack of health and armor is a bit naive. Furthermore, insinuating that mist may or may not need a nerf (I am guessing you think it does) based on an example from one map is no different than suggesting Rook be nerfed because he is strong on prison.
Your post is well presented, but clearly made from an outside perspective with little experience playing Erebus.
Well, I think while in Mist form Erebus shouldn't be regenerating Mana at all. The basic idea of the ability was that you drain mana per second to become invincible and do AoE damage - allowing him to use Mana regeneration items to defeat the cost of the ability completely is most likely outside what was intended.
yeah, I thought for the longest time that actually already worked. It should.
You might be right. You might be wrong and I am right.
That's why I'd love to hear from the game design folks at GPG and/or SD to weigh in on this.
I've never seen a permanent invulnerability state in an RTS or and RPG, therefore I thought it worth discussing.
I'm not naive, as I am a pretty experienced RTS/RPG gamer, I'm not uber dexterity hand skills as I am an old dude, however I do understand strategy and mechanics fairly well. Although, I'm biased
But like I said, you could be perfectly right.
How much mana regen do you usually stack? A lot? Moderate? Or little to none and just rely on Heart of Life after you cast Bats to flee? You have to have some mana recovery and like I said before, you are likely to have at least a few of the items no matter what in order to have a passable mana pool and mana regen. If you are relying on Heart of Life and just go for health/armor/damage items then that's brings up interesting design points.
And as for Heart of Life, I think I might do a write up on that as well as it is kind of cheesy (although I love having it).
I encountered a bug (don't remember if it was last patch or the time before) where I could stay in mist indefinately, even though I was running out of mana. That's what I assumed you were talking about when I came to the topic
I agree with a previous poster, that through my experience, it's not worth spending all that money to be able to do. It's not game-breaking by any means. If you're sitting there in mist, you've dedicated all your efforts into one specific location. If you spent that cash on items/artifacts that give normal attacks an area effect, attack speed, etc, you'd do a ton more damage and keep your mobility.
I only use mist in specific situations to avoid death anymore, personally.
Well, I did not mean to imply that you are naive in general, I just meant that it seemed clear that you had not played Erebus much, and there's nothing wrong with that, he is not everyone's cup of tea.
You do raise a point that he can indeed achieve a state of permanent invulnerability, but if you look beyond that, you will realize that Erebus is essentially useless in Mist form. He can kill some creeps, but while Misted he is not buying upgrades, killing demigods or capturing flags. All one must do to avoid mist is simply step out of it, and frankly, many late Demigods can simply tank through it even with mediocre hp regen.
As far as the mana regen goes, its fairly simple to work out given the limited number of mana items avalaible. I would estimate it be roughly double what a normal (2x helmet) mana set up would be, but you do not have to get artifacts to achieve it.
The ultimate downfall to this type of build is that it relegates Erebus to a glorified creep killer with little usefulness in regards to other demigods.
This is a really good tactic. If they ignore you, they get tons of unopposed creeps coming their way. If they camp you, your allies have less to deal with. If they try to go past, they have no creep support, fewer defending, and you yourself behind them.
He can still get bite without sacrificing too much. Poisoned Blood and Vampiric Aura can be bought as well. Also, achieving very long lasting Mist is less than 14K gold. You could swap one of the items out for the more expensive Heart of Life which also give 50% mana bonus.
I first documented this technique here. It's an interesting tactic, but by no means an automatic win, since the side with the misting erebus is effectively down a demigod for the duration, potentially allowing your team to steamroll them - if you ignore the steady stream of nightwalkers. Furthermore, the Erebus will be the only enemy DG gaining XP/gold from those creeps, and thus his team may suffer from a level defficiency.
Another counter: Mist only does enough damage to kill unupgraded creeps. If you upgrade your grunts HP at the Citadel, they'll survive his mist - they won't stop to target him. A smart Erebus will generate a single Nightwalker before misting and post it in the cloud to help convince your creeps to stop in the mist and die, however if you eliminate his nightwalkers, he'll be forced to demist to generate another.
It's not an unbeatable technique, but if it's the first time you've seen it, it's highly confusing and potentially devastating.
Eternal in this case mist was used right and it helped the team. However, it effectively removes a demigod from helping his team directly so you may be able to get the upper hand in demigod kills who by themselves can kill a citadel and given the right ones, can kill all the creeps as well. I could see this not working very well vs a team of say UB, rook / reg, and TB. As for the nightwalkers towers yeah they'll probably kill it, but on exile I doubt they'll get the citadel as giants will start to pile up on them a long with angels who can't be killed by mist or nightwalkers very well.
Worse comes to worse as people have said simply have one demi-god hang back and kill all the nightwalkers, as by the time erebus has 125 mana regen his measly 125 dps won't be an issue.
Yeah, but they don't get xp or gold from the nightwalkers, and having someone babysit the mist effectively pulls an ENEMY demigod out from the fight too. If they DON'T babysit the mist, erebus can pop out when the coast is clear and do his thing, capping flags and whatnot.
That is a very cool idea. I must admit I have not really gone that route, but I do not think it gives merit to changing Mist.
I think Mist a cool little evasion skill with a bonus of doing some damage, and is not particularly threatening in most cases. If an Erubus is misting he should probably be ignored and attention pressed elsewhere.
Or, better yet, just cover his exit and wait for him to come out of his little cloud, and totally destroy him when he's out of mana. I love doing that.
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