Introducing DGBanlist.com

Before I continue discussing this issue please take the time to fill in this simple yes or no questionaire.

Please don't mind if I expand a little on my answers.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

I understand that no one will every use this site to kick anyone from a game?

I understand that fully. The child-like programming of the site aside, the concept is terrible and has no place in this community.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

I understand that what people have a problem with is a banlist, a program identical to the one used in DotA?

I understand this. Do you understand that people also have a problem with the concept as a whole, regardless of it's implementation as either a website or a 3rd Party Program and that this concept has no place in this community?

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

I understand that the banlist program has no way to kick a player once the game launches?

I understand this. Do you understand the program is designed to prevent these players from entering the game to begin with, thus negating this question entirely as this question is asked under the assumption that the program has failed in it's initial purpose begging the question what the point of the program would be?

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

I understand that there is no way you can do a global ban with the banlist program?

I understand that there are large scale bans, described here in terms of a ban placed by one user that is transfered to another user's Ban list in one method or another.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

I understand that a personal banlist is coming to DG whether I like it or not?

I understand that. Do you understand that people, such as myself, will make sure that the people harbouring the mindset required to us this type of behaviour are treated in a manner befitting said behaviour?

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

I understand that when I join a game I agree to play by the rules the host has set?

I understand that the host agrees when opening the game to public play that the good come with the bad and also that hosting a game doesn't automatically make you correct.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

I understand that any player of the game has the right to not play with who he or she chooses?

I understand this fact and agree completely.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

I understand that the only global bans in DotA come from joining a privage league and violating the posted rules that are known to all members. These bans may only come from select approved hosts (moderators)?

I understand this fact and often state such a fact as a reason for leaving the DotA community. Do DotA players of any calibre understand that Demigod is neither DotA nor a spiritual successor and as such the communities and their ideals about fair play and accountability are different? Furthermore, do DotA community members/players understand that being a DotA player does not give them powers of superior intelligence and are they familiar with the term "What happens in DotA, stays in DotA?".

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

I understand that those global bans are few and far between?

I understand this.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

I understand that all of those global bans come with an archived replay to prove the worthyness of the ban?

I understand this.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

I understand that all of these global bans come with the ability to appeal?

I understand this.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

TheTrav, please stop trying to change the subject.

I understand that no sane person thinks everyone should have the right to globally ban anyone?

I understand this. Do you understand that no sane person would think that anyone should the right to globally ban anyone who is not accountable for the use of such a ban?

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

reply 22

You're welcome. I've already stated that people won't be using your site. I'm sorry but no one is going to alt tab to check people out and an IRC channel isn't going to get people to use it. People want a program that runs in the background and takes care of itself.

I'll speak for myself here, rather than for the 'People', when I say that I consider the idea behind this program a terrible one; one that propells the elitest mindset that ruined the DotA community as a whole caused many like myself to leave. If people are leaving the DotA community and coming to Demigod, perhaps addressing why they would be leaving would be better than attempting to replicate that community on top of a new game of a simillar style? Starting fresh, without the elitests' and general scum of the internet sounds like a much better idea to me than to drag all of the fine people who play Demigod down to the level of the average DotA denizen.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

reply 22

The questions are for an actual banlist program and how it operates, which people apparently don't understand. I can appreciate you trying to do something about a very old problem but I just don't think your approach is the right one. The answer for the problem can't be more archaic than the previous answer

As my answeres to your above questions should indicate, I understand fully. However, I've clearly forgotten the question that the Banlist program was supposed to answer! Oh, is my face red! Was it 'How best to divide the community?', or 'How to drive players away?', perhaps it was 'Will running a Banlist program stroke my e-peen?' or 'How to ruin a new game's fledging community?'. I think we need to consider whatever the original answer was, the question wasn't terribly intelligent and thus the reply is 'cut from the same cloth'.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

reply 1

Without DotA you don't have "our" game. Whether you want it or not the culture is coming. Either live with it or find a different genre. All communities of the same genre are cut from the same cloth. The larger the community is the more noticable certain things within the culture are. They already exist but the larger population makes things more apparent.

DotA is indeed almost entirely responsible for the creation Demigod in that it started the general concept of the play mechanics that Demigod uses. The culture of DotA, however, is not a result of the Map itself, if anything it's a result of the Map being created for a game that was created by Blizzard Entertainment, as all of their games' communites are drowning in this culture. The culture of DotA is rather a direct result of the mindset of the vocal people who continually devise ways of seperating themselves from the 'n00bs'; people who think that they're better than everyone else. It's arrival within the Stardock forums is directly linked to the creation and subsequent release of Demigod, or at least that is the impression I have gathered from reading the forums and talking with the people who were here before I joined - which is also linked to the release of Demigod. One can then deduce that the arrival of this culture is also a direct result of the players with this kind of mindset, of which DotA players are included, infecting the community as a whole. In less words; you and your ilk brought it with you, and now you need a method to control it. Maybe I'm wrong, however being as these Blacklist programs are created in communities where the majority of players habrour this kind of thinking or in communities where those players spread to, maybe I'm not.

Your statement that all communities of the same genre are simillar is also incorrect; one needs only look at the very genre both Demigod and DotA share in common; the RTS genre. From Homeworld, Warcraft, Age of Empires, Sins of a Solar Empire, Starcraft, Demigod, Total War, Dark Reign to Supreme Commander the communities around these games are different; and, apart from two of them, they don't have the culture that has drowned DotA. You can't blame the culture that exists within DotA on anyone else other than the people who make up it's community. Nice try, though.

Now, to swing this back on topic, which is why the Blacklist program is a bad idea, let me ask you a simple question:
How is the in-game Ignore list, which is coming in a future update, not sufficent enough that one requires a 3rd Party Program?

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stolivodka, please calm down.

so then enhance that network to add the ability to say "yeah I played with this other guy a few times and I had a bad time" and let us see those comments that our friends make and keep track of them in an easily searchable, indexed database.

The point of any site of that sort is to facilitate banning people sight-unseen. No matter how you slice it, that would divide the community and create large amounts of unnecessary drama. That is, if anyone used it. Considering that the only ban posted on that site that wasn't a joke was made by the guy who created the site, I don't really think this is something that folks in the DG community were clamoring for. Check out the reception alban got when he proposed it, earlier this week.

I really shouldn't do this because I don't think it'll help, but consider that you're calling me an elitist while at the same time being an elitist yourself in that you're superior because you're not part of the DotA crowd.

So you and Ouchy are the same person, huh? I'll keep that in mind and stop responding to you seperately, then.

No, I am not elitist because I'm not the one claiming that DG's code and community need to be altered to make it more like another game, just because it was "first". That would be you and your alt, who in multiple threads, keep assuring us that it is "inevitable" that we will eventually be exactly like the community of some obscure WC3 map. You don't even stop to consider that the vast, overwhelming majority of people getting into DG have no earthly idea what DotA is, yet you insist that we comply with some cultural ideal that you developed elsewhere. That's elitism. Next time, get a dictionary and spare me your sophistry.

If we're going to suggest other uses of dgbanlist.com, let me make one: Godaddy parking page.

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I'm still not getting how this is 'elitist'.

If there are a set of rules for behavior that a group of people agree are the rules they wish to play by, and don't want to deal with people who don't agree with them, why is that elitist?

If someone breaks a rule in a community, that the community has agreed upon, they suffer the concequences of that.

Why? Because you need rules in a civilized society.

Let's say for example the rules are as follows:

No quitting mid game, unless the majority of players agree, or you have a network/hardware/software issue.

No harassing or griefing of players.

No shit talk.

Having something like this can be very beneficial. It assures that you're playing with people of a similar mindset. You don't have to worry about these problems because the people you're playing with have all agreed to these rules.

If asking that people don't act like a jack ass in my game is being 'elitist' then I guess I'm an elitist. I'd like to think of it as having good sportsmanship but I guess some of you feel to restrained by such 'rules', like, 'don't be a jerk off'.

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Quoting ZehDon,

The culture of DotA is rather a direct result of the mindset of the vocal people who continually devise ways of seperating themselves from the 'n00bs'; people who think that they're better than everyone else.

Quoted for truth.

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Alban87-

I'm not going to flame you for the work you put into your banlist site because that really isn't my style and I know it took alot of your own personal time to even contemplate and design something like this, a feat I could never hope to do. Taking in consideration to some of the other posters legitimate concerns and criticisms, I have a few ideas that you should consider.

I can understand a personal banlist especially if you're trying to host a friendly game up to specific standards, but I for one would not want to alt-tab out of my game every time a new player entered the room to see where they stand on a banlist, be it a personal or a global. Obviously with the system you currently have, there are going to be griefers that try to ruin a person for whatever reason, so that consideration should be brought into light.

I can see a program that would allow you to easily add someone too, sort from A-Z, without having to alt-tab out of the game, would be the best possible option. If I had a particulary bad experience with an individual, I would add them to this revised, easy to implement list, and check it when needed too. The thing is, with me, I usually remember griefers, so I will kick them without even needing to consult a ban list .

If you have other ideas that you are considering, I'm all open to giving constructive criticism, good luck.

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(quoting alban987)

I'm still not getting how this is 'elitist'

Because you deleted the ban I posted on you, but if someone were to post a ban on me, there would be no way for me to delete it. Hence, you and your clique are the elite. The rest are peons.

If there are a set of rules for behavior that a group of people agree are the rules they wish to play by, and don't want to deal with people who don't agree with them, why is that elitist?

It is elitist because a group of people are promoting a universal exclusion criteria that not everyone in the community agrees with. It is elitist because when we disagree we are told that "DotA does it this way" and that "it is inevitable".

If someone breaks a rule in a community, that the community has agreed upon, they suffer the concequences of that.

Your rules. Your judgment.

No quitting mid game, unless the majority of players agree, or you have a network/hardware/software issue.

Unless replays are implemented and unalterable and the ragequitter says "I am ragequitting" before disconnecting, there is no way to tell a ragequitter apart from a network or bug victim.

No harassing or griefing of players.

Like going after the weakest player on the other team to farm exp/gold? Like blocking flags? Like using "spit" every time you see another player? Where do you draw the line? How do you decide?

No shit talk.

That's too easy. According to your responses, lots of people responding to your dumb idea have "shit talked" you and not been "constructive". In a flamewar where both sides are shit talking each other and both ban the other, what will you do?

Sure, you'll reply "each case will be reviewed and fair judgment will be made", and again, I respond: "Your rules. Your judgment.". Who voted for you? Who even asked you to step up and try to impose this garbage on us? You act like you are doing us a favor, but you're just spreading cancer. Please stop polluting our community.

Having something like this can be very beneficial. It assures that you're playing with people of a similar mindset. You don't have to worry about these problems because the people you're playing with have all agreed to these rules.

Only playing with people who have "a similar mindset" is elitism. Feel free to continue, but prepare to be denounced as an elitist.

If asking that people don't act like a jack ass in my game is being 'elitist' then I guess I'm an elitist. I'd like to think of it as having good sportsmanship but I guess some of you feel to restrained by such 'rules', like, 'don't be a jerk off'.

Your rules. Your judgment.

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Quoting alban987,

I'm still not getting how this is 'elitist'.

If I thought that you had created the site in order to fulfill a need you saw within the community, I wouldn't be as negative as I am towards it. However, the fact that I've heard suggestions from one extreme to other and this has never been mentioned as something needed shows me you created this not in response to the desire for it, rather to 'be ahead of the curve' so to speak; you saw this is a different community and brought it to Demigod. Again, as there was no desire for this and you created it anyway, the only conclusions I can draw from are that either you wanted to be the man in charge or wanted to ensure that 'n00bs' were punished.

Quoting alban987,

If there are a set of rules for behavior that a group of people agree are the rules they wish to play by, and don't want to deal with people who don't agree with them, why is that elitist? If someone breaks a rule in a community, that the community has agreed upon, they suffer the concequences of that. Why? Because you need rules in a civilized society.

It becomes elitest when the reason you don't want to play with them is because they're 'n00bs'; you think your better and this system provides methods for keeping the 'pros' excluded from the rabble. As I mentioned above, there has been little to no vocal desire for this system, so the 'for the community' response begins to fall apart.
Stardock enforce the primary community rules, such as be civil at all times, and being as they have a near flawless track record up until this point, I'm happy to let them continue to do so and not turn to other members of the community to police the community.

Quoting alban987,

No quitting mid game, unless the majority of players agree, or you have a network/hardware/software issue. No harassing or griefing of players. No shit talk.

Being as mid-game disconnects and network, hardware and software issues are usually not the fault of the player experiencing such things, banning for this is exactly the kind of intolerant, elitest kind of mindset I've been writing about. You might want to consider what this system to going to be used before creating it next time; it's going to be used to seperate people based on their opinions, rather than experiences, of one another. For proof of this, please refer to other games where this kind of system is in play and research why it is used.

Quoting alban987,

It assures that you're playing with people of a similar mindset. You don't have to worry about these problems because the people you're playing with have all agreed to these rules.

Now your making sense. If people want to use this kind of system, they will. I'm not asking them not to; I'm asking them to add the entire community to their Blacklist so that it's function becomes reversed; it seperates us from them. Let the elitests sit in their little corner, while the rest of us enjoy the game!

Quoting alban987,

If asking that people don't act like a jack ass in my game is being 'elitist' then I guess I'm an elitist. I'd like to think of it as having good sportsmanship but I guess some of you feel to restrained by such 'rules', like, 'don't be a jerk off'.

You stated your rules above (No quitting mid game, unless the majority of players agree, or you have a network/hardware/software issue. No harassing or griefing of players. No shit talk.) and sportsmen ship was not included. Acting as if you have some form of higher purpose is again what I've been writing about. You become an elitest when your idea of what a 'jerk' is changes from a player deliberatly ensuring that other people's game experiences are ruined, to players who don't follow your rules and your mindset. I play with elitest gamers all the time; I simply ignore what they have to say unless it is going to help my side of whatever game I'm playing win or have fun and enjoy the game my way. I don't hard code a program to promove them from my game experience. If they want to remove themselves from my game experience, who am I to stop them?

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Quoting stolivodka,

reply 6

The point of any site of that sort is to facilitate banning people sight-unseen. No matter how you slice it

Right now, if you go on and piss off two of my good friends in game, then I start a game and they tell me what a twat you are, I'm not going to play with you, sight unseen. This site will make it easier for me to do that, and therefore easier for me to avoid playing games I don't enjoy with people who are likely to offend me.

Quoting stolivodka,

reply 6

So you and Ouchy are the same person, huh?

I think you've misinterpreted me there. Ouchy and I are not the same person, I'm not sure if there's any reliable way of you making sure of that, so if you won't take my word for it then too bad for both of us.

I'm going to stop responding to you, we have different opinions. You seem to believe we should all just let anyone who wants to play enter our games and should make no effort at all to not play with people we don't think will be fun to play with.

I don't think that, I think we should give randoms the benefit of the doubt, but I personally wouldn't chose to play with them over a friend or someone a friend has recommended, additionally if a friend had pointed out someone as being un-fun to play with then I'll typically not want to play with them.

Neither of us seem willing to budge from that position so we're just going to have to disagree.

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Right now, if you go on and piss off two of my good friends in game, then I start a game and they tell me what a twat you are, I'm not going to play with you, sight unseen. This site will make it easier for me to do that, and therefore easier for me to avoid playing games I don't enjoy with people who are likely to offend me.

Yes, I understand this. As an elitist, clique-building is what you do. Great. Wonderful. Do I support the creation of a tool that will facilitate mass-scale clique-building and breaking the community into "friends-of-x" and "friends-of-y"? No.

I think you've misinterpreted me there. Ouchy and I are not the same person, I'm not sure if there's any reliable way of you making sure of that, so if you won't take my word for it then too bad for both of us.

Oh, OK. It was weird, since you were replying to something that I said to him as if I had said it to you, when I clearly quoted Ouchy in that post. Ouchy's point, if you could call it that, was that DotA was "first" and every game now and forever that involves heroes, citidels or flags must adopt the community standards of DotA. I disagreed with that notion, to say the least. Sorry if I offended you by saying you were him. I know I sure would be offended if anyone thought I was his alt.

I don't think that, I think we should give randoms the benefit of the doubt, but I personally wouldn't chose to play with them over a friend or someone a friend has recommended

And the community gets smaller and smaller....

Neither of us seem willing to budge from that position so we're just going to have to disagree.

Yup.

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Really, so now any grouping of like minded people is being 'elitest' ?

So groups like the NRA or ACLU or Boy Scouts are 'elitest' because a group of people who believe in a certain set of principles hang out together? Fascinating.

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Quoting alban987,

reply 14

Really, so now any grouping of like minded people is being 'elitest'?

If that group believes their group is a gethering of superior people who exlcude people who are inferior people, yes. The groups you listed are not elitest. Spinning words to make your point only works when you actually spin the words, rather than make obviously over-reaching statements. Nice profile picture.

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Quoting ZehDon,

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts, reply 19Before I continue discussing this issue please take the time to fill in this simple yes or no questionaire.
Please don't mind if I expand a little on my answers.

If you insist on spinning things. They're simple yes or no questions. If you understand them then there really isn't much to discuss. But......

Quoting ZehDon,

I understand that fully. The child-like programming of the site aside, the concept is terrible and has no place in this community.

The site may have "child-like programming" I honestly don't know or care. It won't be used, its far to half assed to address the issue at hand. No one will alt tab to check a player out, they just wont. That said the general concept (minus the global ban) is sound. I as a host have the right to keep track of the players I never want to see again. This is ALL a banlist does. There is NOTHING wrong with that concept.

Quoting ZehDon,

I understand this. Do you understand that people also have a problem with the concept as a whole, regardless of it's implementation as either a website or a 3rd Party Program and that this concept has no place in this community?

Has no place in this community? How do you figure that? We're not talking about the website anymore so you can drop that whole thing right here and now. If it's a program running in the background keeping track of douche bags it effects you in zero way unless you're one of those douche bags. If not you have no argument.

Here's a list derectly out of my banlist of bannable offenses in my games. Leaver, lagger, plug puller (disconnecting by pulling your plug and wasting everyones time instead of just leaving the damn game), AFKer (going afk for extended periods of time without saying a word or sharing control of your hero), feeder (intentionally feeding), getting racial, lamer (backdooring, not shutting the hell up, going out of your way to not help your team). I don't think any of those reasons are out of line for any reasonable person.

People are already doing these things in your magical utopia. They'll continue to do it, if you want to just take your lumps go ahead. I, myself, would rather have a way to not have to deal with them ever again.

Quoting ZehDon,

I understand this. Do you understand the program is designed to prevent these players from entering the game to begin with, thus negating this question entirely as this question is asked under the assumption that the program has failed in it's initial purpose begging the question what the point of the program would be?

Yes, I fully understand how this program works. I've used it in thousands of hosted DotA games, it's not a new concept to me. However some people in this thread think that it's going to eject people from games. If I join a pantheon it'll kick me or the other guy out cuz one of us is banned! No, no it wont. This is strictly a custom game thing. Not all these questions are directed directly at you.

Quoting ZehDon,

I understand that there are large scale bans, described here in terms of a ban placed by one user that is transfered to another user's Ban list in one method or another.

Banlist comes with a checkbox (which the user can opt to not use) which will connect his banlist to a server containing "approved bans" from approved hosts from the TDA league. Outside of the TDA bans there is no way to link your lists or somehow make a ban outside of your own computer. Are you an approved host for TDA? If not than you can NEVER make one of these bans. So we can drop this idea that every tom, dick, and harry can do this. That'd be a lie.

Quoting ZehDon,

I understand that. Do you understand that people, such as myself, will make sure that the people harbouring the mindset required to us this type of behaviour are treated in a manner befitting said behaviour?

Whats with the circle talk? lol. These griefers and idiots are already in the game. There is no way to stop them outside of a banlist. Whether it comes from GPG/SD or a third party doesn't really matter. As long as it's a certifiable banlist. I'd prefer a third party myself as it offers a level of cusomizablity and features that I can say with a fairly high level of certainty won't exist with an official version. The only saving grace I think a GPG/SD one would have is their banlist could ban that users CD key from you so that regardless of what ingame name they used they could never play with you. That'd be a nice feature that a third party system couldn't do.

Quoting ZehDon,

I understand that the host agrees when opening the game to public play that the good come with the bad and also that hosting a game doesn't automatically make you correct.

Hosting doesn't make you correct. But as far as that specific game is concerned you are the end all be all. If a host has favor items disabled you can ask him to turn them on, or he can tell you to piss off. No one can make him do anything he doesn't want to do. By the same token if that host doesn't want you there you don't get to be there. You're also playing by his rules, everyone thinks different things are bullshit moves.

In DotA some people allow backdooring, some people don't. It depends on your host. Which is why something like TDA was made. These are the rules, everyone can see them, violate the rules and you're done. Now the host isn't correct or incorrect, there is no mystery. You're either in the wrong or you're not. It's black and white.

Quoting ZehDon,

I understand this fact and agree completely.

Finally something we can agree on without going back and forth. I submit that banlist is merely my post-it note. I've already chosen I never wish to see you again and banlist is there to ensure that.

Quoting ZehDon,

I understand this fact and often state such a fact as a reason for leaving the DotA community. Do DotA players of any calibre understand that Demigod is neither DotA nor a spiritual successor and as such the communities and their ideals about fair play and accountability are different? Furthermore, do DotA community members/players understand that being a DotA player does not give them powers of superior intelligence and are they familiar with the term "What happens in DotA, stays in DotA?".

(This is getting annoying to cut and paste quotes! lol) You left DotA because of TDA bans? If you did than the only inference I can get from that is you're someone who broke the rules. If this is the case then why do I care what you think? Play by the rules or don't play TDA. You can host your own game with whatever zany ass rules you like.

I'd like to see where that term has ever been used =P If you want to make up terms as some sort of commonplace thing this is a retarded discussion we're having here. DG is not DotA, spiritual successor, well since it involves no one that worked on DotA that can't be either. What it is the second legitimate game of the genre. Games in the same genre are going to draw the same people, have the same issues, have the same drama, have the same problems.

This has nothing to do with superior intelligence. This problem already exists in DG. If you want to turn a blind eye have fun. Some of us don't want to just have this problem go completely unchecked.

Quoting ZehDon,

I understand that those global bans are few and far between?I understand this.

So, it's not an issue. Global bans in DotA were a rarity and as such are not the plague people are making it out to be.

Quoting ZehDon,

I understand that all of those global bans come with an archived replay to prove the worthyness of the ban?
I understand this.

So, these global bans are not given out on a whim. Again, not a plague, people can chill out.

Quoting ZehDon,

I understand that all of these global bans come with the ability to appeal?
I understand this.

So, again these global bans came with the ability for the offender to make his case and get it reversed. Seems pretty even handed to me!

Quoting ZehDon,

I understand this. Do you understand that no sane person would think that anyone should the right to globally ban anyone who is not accountable for the use of such a ban?

Every global ban in DotA came with accountability. A select group of people, posted rules, an application process you went through, archived replays, and the ability to appeal. Seems like there's a shitload of accountability involved in every single one of them. Again, this isn't some sort of plague.

Quoting ZehDon,

I'll speak for myself here, rather than for the 'People', when I say that I consider the idea behind this program a terrible one; one that propells the elitest mindset that ruined the DotA community as a whole caused many like myself to leave. If people are leaving the DotA community and coming to Demigod, perhaps addressing why they would be leaving would be better than attempting to replicate that community on top of a new game of a simillar style? Starting fresh, without the elitests' and general scum of the internet sounds like a much better idea to me than to drag all of the fine people who play Demigod down to the level of the average DotA denizen.

What elitist mindset? You've already stated I have the right to not play with anyone of my choosing, as do you. This program makes that possible. Without it it isn't feasible in the least.

Do you think there's some sort of mass exodus from DotA? Because I can assure you there is not. I still play DotA more than DG and I think that'll always be the case. It's a game in the same genre, something new to dick around with. This isn't an MMO where I only want to pay 15 bucks a month for 1 game so I only play one game. This is a one time purchase which can be played whenever I so choose. If you like vanilla ice cream you can never have chocolate! Even if you still prefer vanilla there will be no deviation!

Quoting ZehDon,

As my answeres to your above questions should indicate, I understand fully. However, I've clearly forgotten the question that the Banlist program was supposed to answer! Oh, is my face red! Was it 'How best to divide the community?', or 'How to drive players away?', perhaps it was 'Will running a Banlist program stroke my e-peen?' or 'How to ruin a new game's fledging community?'. I think we need to consider whatever the original answer was, the question wasn't terribly intelligent and thus the reply is 'cut from the same cloth'.

Mind indicating where I was talking to you with this post at all? Just curious if you're seeing things, because thats a pretty serious condition if you are.

I honestly couldn't really care less as far as the community is concerned. I mean I dont play these games to make friends. This is not a case for the ACLU, I'm not accountable to anyone in this community, or the DotA community, or god, or country so you can go ahead and drop the holier than thou shit.

The problem (if you're so daft you need me to say it again, I honestly think you're just trolling at this point) is Leavers, racists, feeders, laggers. I don't want to play with any of these people. I have the right to not have to play with them as you yourself have personally stated. The problem is keeping the riff raff out of my games. I don't have to justify it to you.

Do you have a problem with a piece of paper by my computer that says "Joe is a leaver"? If you do, we're done here. If you don't then realize one simple thing. This is ALL banlist is.

Quoting ZehDon,

DotA is indeed almost entirely responsible for the creation Demigod in that it started the general concept of the play mechanics that Demigod uses. The culture of DotA, however, is not a result of the Map itself, if anything it's a result of the Map being created for a game that was created by Blizzard Entertainment, as all of their games' communites are drowning in this culture. The culture of DotA is rather a direct result of the mindset of the vocal people who continually devise ways of seperating themselves from the 'n00bs'; people who think that they're better than everyone else. It's arrival within the Stardock forums is directly linked to the creation and subsequent release of Demigod, or at least that is the impression I have gathered from reading the forums and talking with the people who were here before I joined - which is also linked to the release of Demigod. One can then deduce that the arrival of this culture is also a direct result of the players with this kind of mindset, of which DotA players are included, infecting the community as a whole. In less words; you and your ilk brought it with you, and now you need a method to control it. Maybe I'm wrong, however being as these Blacklist programs are created in communities where the majority of players habrour this kind of thinking or in communities where those players spread to, maybe I'm not.

What does blizzard have to do with anything? Blizzard sells millions and millions and millions of copies of everygame it makes. The DotA problem has nothing to do with Blizzard other than it makes a games possible population higher than any other games on the market. There are idiots in every MMO community, not just WoW. WoW has soooooo many more players than other MMOs that the problem seems larger. If 20% of an MMOs community is fucktarded and in most MMOs thats 40,000 people. In WoW if 20% of the community is fucktarded that's 2 million people (assuming 10million customers). The percentage is the same but the problem looks larger because the community is that much larger. And for the record I don't like WoW so calm down.

Now, this isn't an MMO. But the fact is there aren't idiots because of blizzard. There are idiots because X% of people are idiots, on the internet Y% more idiots by the virtue of anonymity, in a competitive game which brings shit talk by virtue of being competitive, and a team based game which brings even MORE shit talking because you rely on people besides yourself. That's a massive powderkeg which has not a thing to do with Blizzard but has everything to do with the type of game DotA is.

This ilk (which, go to hell) is supposed to come from DotA exists in some level on the INTERNET. They're going to come based solely on that fact alone. Ever seen a forum troll (I'm not so sure you're not) on a non DotA forum? A griefer in a game that isn't DotA? If you answered yes to either of these then your theory is kinda shot. People are already here griefing in game because you can't do a damn thing about it. You can't do a thing about it entirely in DotA, but you can try and stave some of it off with banlist. That's all people want. I cant keep 100% of the idiots out of my game but if I can keep any percentage out then it's worth it.

Quoting ZehDon,

Your statement that all communities of the same genre are simillar is also incorrect; one needs only look at the very genre both Demigod and DotA share in common; the RTS genre. From Homeworld, Warcraft, Age of Empires, Sins of a Solar Empire, Starcraft, Demigod, Total War, Dark Reign to Supreme Commander the communities around these games are different; and, apart from two of them, they don't have the culture that has drowned DotA. You can't blame the culture that exists within DotA on anyone else other than the people who make up it's community. Nice try, though.

You're wrong. DotA and DG aren't RTSs. They're a sub-genre created by AoS which DotA turned into a phenomenon which GDG deemed worthy of expanding. The RTS RPGs. The RTS RPG is NOT the same as warcraft, or Starcraft, or any other RTS.

So, being as this has no other game in common with it than DotA, guess what, still true. But if you want to compare apples to oranges you're entitled to. But next time don't make me part of it.

RTS RPGs have all the things I listed before in common. Games whos entire existence revolves around multiplayer, competitive gameplay, and team gameplay. All things that make peoples blood boil and turn people into shitheads. Every player has to pull their weight or the whole house of cards crashes. When someone doesn't pull their weight people will freak out, people will rage quit, people will talk mad shit and start calling people every racist term in the books, people get livid. It's part of this fabulous genre we've both decided to play. You're not going to change the world so there's no reason to try. But what you can do is make your little section of it as clear of people you dont like as possible. Enter banlist.

Quoting ZehDon,

Now, to swing this back on topic, which is why the Blacklist program is a bad idea, let me ask you a simple question:
How is the in-game Ignore list, which is coming in a future update, not sufficent enough that one requires a 3rd Party Program?

Already answered this earlier in the post. I'd prefer the customization and features of a third party program more myself. Plus I'm sure someone can get some college credit for it or something BUT if GPG/SD can make it so a ban bans a persons CD key from my games I'd take that in a heartbeat. The one fatal flaw of a banlist, which maybe you don't know about, is that you can make a new username and my banlist has effectively forgotten about you.

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So, if you can't globally ban anyone. If I have the right to choose who I play with. If you always have the right to make your own game if you don't like mine. If I have the right to write a name down on a piece of paper. What exactly is the problem with banlist? Lets cut all the bullshit. Keep it short and sweet, keep the spin circular logic to a minimum. Also forget about this website because we've already gone over how it's not an issue. I'd honestly like to know what the possible problem with that is.

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Quoting stolivodka,

reply 3

DotA is still around. Go play it if you are so convinced of the superiority of its culture. People like me who came over from SoaSE and SC (real games, not lame mods) are kinda sick of you guys acting like you own the concept of RPGs and capture-the-flag.

You're playing a game based entirely at its core around a "lame mod" so who's the smart kid? Without those "lame mods" you don't have DG. At all, it's not a thing. Wrap your head around that one. Someone with the money decided to make a game and charge people for it based upon a hugely successful "mod".

I'd like you to quote me 1 single instance of where I even implied that I'm "convinced of the superiority of it's culture". Go ahead and find me it. I can save you the trouble and tell you I never did. You're making shit up now to argue about something that was never said, which makes you a troll.

No one ever implied the ownership of a single thing, again making things up, grats.

Furthermore DG nor DotA are RPGs, nor are they RTSs. They are both put together, they are the only games of any repute of the genre that exist.

If you would, please refrain from making things up, it only makes you look like a shit stirring troll.

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Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

They're simple yes or no questions. If you understand them then there really isn't much to discuss. But......

Well, in my opinion, strict Yes or No questions can be used to direct responses based on the particular wording of the question rather than accurate collecting of opinions. For example, if I asked "Do you believe the internet is comprised of bad people?" answering yes can be viewed as saying the internet is entirely made of bad people and answering no can be viewed as saying there are no bad people on the internet. I felt that expanded answers were warranted to some of your questions as neither Yes nor No represented my actual answer.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

... That said the general concept (minus the global ban) is sound. I as a host have the right to keep track of the players I never want to see again. This is ALL a banlist does. There is NOTHING wrong with that concept.

In principle I agree; people are welcome to avoid players that they do not wish to play with for reasons entirely of their own opinion. However, a Banlist open to an entire community is not this principle; this is not me objecting to players for my own reasons, this is me objecting to players for another's reason. If this concept was limited to a group - such as a clan or network of friends - who's opinions are shared then this removes my objection to the concept as this is no longer a free-for-all as the abuse of the system is, theoretically, removed. As you removed the Global Ban from the concept yourself, I believe we're on basically the same page and feel nothing further is needed on this point.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

We're not talking about the website anymore so you can drop that whole thing right here and now. If it's a program running in the background keeping track of douche bags it effects you in zero way unless you're one of those douche bags. If not you have no argument.

I wasn't talking about the website, I was refering to the concept of community segmentation. Sorry for not being clearer on that point, that's my fault.
I agree that a program running on, for example, your computer doesn't effect me directly. However, segmenting these 'douche bags' doesn't remove the problem; it's simply a method of ignoring it instead of attempting to effect change in their behaviour. If you're happy to do that, that's Ok by me because, as you stated, it's not effecting me directly.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

Here's a list derectly out of my banlist of bannable offenses in my games: Leaver, lagger, plug puller, AFKer, feeder (intentionally feeding), getting racial, lamer. I don't think any of those reasons are out of line for any reasonable person.

Now we're beginning to get to the source of our disagreement.
Leaving a game, in any method, is not a reason to ban someone in my opinion unless that person is a 'spy' for the other team and played on your side for the sole purpose of leaving you a man down - this comes under griefing in my book and is a valid reason. However, there are many reasons for someone disconnecting without advising their team mates or opposition first. Too many to assume it was for 'bannable' reasons.
Lagging is also almost never the person's direct fault; I find it difficult to believe players directly clog up their internet connections while playing online games and so I have to disagree with that reason.
Playing badly as well is also not a good enough excuse in my opinion to ban someone as I find it difficult to believe that you did not have to learn how to play yourself. Teaching another player isn't terribly difficult to do, and will add one more person to the pool of players you're able to play with.
Now, the other reaons you've listed - getting racial, lamer, griefing - are valid reasons for banning someone and I agree with you on those points.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

Not all these questions are directed directly at you.

I didn't mean to reply in such a manner as thinking all of your statements were directed at me personally, sorry if I've come across that way.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

Which is why something like TDA was made. These are the rules, everyone can see them, violate the rules and you're done. Now the host isn't correct or incorrect, there is no mystery. You're either in the wrong or you're not. It's black and white.

This is a valid point and a perfect example of where a banlist for a group of like minded people is entirely acceptable as long as the rules they employee are fair. Don't mistake my disagreement for an open community Blacklist to be a disagreement against baning in general.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

(This is getting annoying to cut and paste quotes! lol) You left DotA because of TDA bans? If you did than the only inference I can get from that is you're someone who broke the rules. If this is the case then why do I care what you think? Play by the rules or don't play TDA. You can host your own game with whatever zany ass rules you like.

Side note: I usually copy the entire bulk of someone's post and simply copy the open quote tag, as manually writing the close quote tag is easier. Cuts down on a lot of work in my opinon

I left DotA not due to TDA rules or their bans, in all honesty I was never apart of it, rather due to the community mindset as a whole of 'us and them'. I disagree with the elitest mindset on principle, and the community was drowning in it. Asking simple questions received pages of insults and demeaning questions - new players are treated as a plague that must be contained and removed and inexperienced players are shunned and kicked from games. I do not wish to see this kind of mindset devour the Demigod community.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

I'd like to see where that term has ever been used =P If you want to make up terms as some sort of commonplace thing this is a retarded discussion we're having here. DG is not DotA, spiritual successor, well since it involves no one that worked on DotA that can't be either. What it is the second legitimate game of the genre. Games in the same genre are going to draw the same people, have the same issues, have the same drama, have the same problems. This has nothing to do with superior intelligence. This problem already exists in DG. If you want to turn a blind eye have fun. Some of us don't want to just have this problem go completely unchecked.

I didn't state my term was in common usage; it's a context appropriate derivative of the widespread term 'What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas' which I'm sure your famillar with. This is another, and shorter, way of saying that the common place rules, ideals and mindsets of one community are not the same in another community and as such people should act accordingly.
The hybrid model that DotA and Demigod used is a sub-genre of the RTS genre and as such is open to comparison within that genre. This hybrid is not an entirely new model, as Warcraft III aptly demonstrated. Warcraft III was in the same sub-genre with a focus on the RTS side of things. Demigod has more of a focus on the RPG side of things - this is evident in the removal of troop control. However, this is besides the point. Generalising the communities of an entire genre or sub-genre is a bad move; looking at the RPG genre for example we see several distinctions between the communities surrounding Final Fantasy, The Elder Scrolls and the Baldur's Gate games. They don't have the same problems, the same people or the same dramas. The same principle applied here; just because these 'griefers' are present doesn't mean we have to accpet them or the methods others have employed for dealing with them in-game. Being as they are still present in games that have used ban lists I believe a different method is needed. However, as we both seem to agree on, you are welcome to disagree and continue using these banlists.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

Do you think there's some sort of mass exodus from DotA? Because I can assure you there is not. I still play DotA more than DG and I think that'll always be the case. It's a game in the same genre, something new to dick around with. This isn't an MMO where I only want to pay 15 bucks a month for 1 game so I only play one game. This is a one time purchase which can be played whenever I so choose. If you like vanilla ice cream you can never have chocolate! Even if you still prefer vanilla there will be no deviation!

Not at all, I was refering to the members of the Demigod community who also are, or where, apart of the DotA community. As I've stated above, the rules and mindset of one community don't necessarily belong in another community. Tranposing the ideals of the DotA community - the idea of 'pros' and 'n00bs' for example - isn't helping this community which has it's own ideals. Just because these ideals exist outside of the DotA community doesn't mean they have to exist within the Demigod community and I think taking steps - such as not banning people because they're inexperienced for example - to ensure the Demigod community avoids the worst aspects of the DotA community is the best solution.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

Mind indicating where I was talking to you with this post at all? Just curious if you're seeing things, because thats a pretty serious condition if you are.

You mentioned in your original post that people did not understand - I was providing evidence, as I have in this post, that I understand completely thus negating myself from your comments relating to people who don't understand. Again, I apologise if you fell I thought your post was directed at me personally, I didn't mean to project that kind of tone.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

I honestly couldn't really care less as far as the community is concerned. I mean I dont play these games to make friends. This is not a case for the ACLU, I'm not accountable to anyone in this community, or the DotA community, or god, or country so you can go ahead and drop the holier than thou shit.

Another point of contention. I do care for the community as a whole, as I intend to play Demigod for quite some time as I enjoy the game immensly and would like to at least attempt to ensure that this community doesn't adopt the worst principles of another community that is widely acknowledged as one of the worst communities on the internet.
Who you believe your accountable to is none of my concern.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

The DotA problem has nothing to do with Blizzard other than it makes a games possible population higher than any other games on the market. There are idiots in every MMO community, not just WoW. WoW has soooooo many more players than other MMOs that the problem seems larger. If 20% of an MMOs community is fucktarded and in most MMOs thats 40,000 people. In WoW if 20% of the community is fucktarded that's 2 million people (assuming 10million customers). The percentage is the same but the problem looks larger because the community is that much larger. And for the record I don't like WoW so calm down.

I don't like WoW either, however that's because of the community as a whole. Arguing population percentages is pointless becaase we can't have validation one way or another. I understand the thinking behind the argument however and agree in part - the loudest people are often the worst and as such makes the problem appear to be worse than it is. However I believe it's a fair point that the stigma around the communities of Blizzard Entertainment games exists for a reason rather than people merely 'assuming' that there is one. DotA is one such example. It's not to say that Blizzard Entertainment create games to be magnets to these people, however they do nothing to prevent them and infact their own policies provide protection for these people to continue to ruin the experiences of others. Companies such as Stardock and Gas Powered Games do not and, as any pre-Demigod Stardock forum user will attest to, the community generated by this is entirely different.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

... in a competitive game which brings shit talk by virtue of being competitive, and a team based game which brings even MORE shit talking because you rely on people besides yourself...

I'll have to disagree with this, as I don't think competitive games are breeding grounds for the scum of the internet by definition and as such we must accept them - these players exist because they've been around for so long that people have merely stopped trying to clean up their acts. The best example I can offer is this very forum; many people have complained and insulted the developers in a manner befitting the players we're discussion. Frogboy, CEO of Stardock entertainment, replied to one such thread and received an automatic apology from the person is question who proceeded to revoke his stance and was quiet after that.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

This ilk (which, go to hell) is ...

I just wanted to apologise for my generalisation of yourself - you've pointed out clearly that you don't harbour the elitest attitude of 'I don't play with n00bs' as I had originally believed. Sorry.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

All things that make peoples blood boil and turn people into shitheads. Every player has to pull their weight or the whole house of cards crashes. When someone doesn't pull their weight people will freak out, people will rage quit, people will talk mad shit and start calling people every racist term in the books, people get livid. It's part of this fabulous genre we've both decided to play. You're not going to change the world so there's no reason to try. But what you can do is make your little section of it as clear of people you dont like as possible. Enter banlist.

We'll have to disagree on a fundamental level - I refuse to accept such behaviour in a community.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

Already answered this earlier in the post. I'd prefer the customization and features of a third party program more myself. Plus I'm sure someone can get some college credit for it or something BUT if GPG/SD can make it so a ban bans a persons CD key from my games I'd take that in a heartbeat. The one fatal flaw of a banlist, which maybe you don't know about, is that you can make a new username and my banlist has effectively forgotten about you.

A valid point and I concede; a third party program can provide additional benefits over a first party one.

Quoting Ouchy Dathurts,

So, if you can't globally ban anyone. If I have the right to choose who I play with. If you always have the right to make your own game if you don't like mine. If I have the right to write a name down on a piece of paper. What exactly is the problem with banlist? Lets cut all the bullshit. Keep it short and sweet, keep the spin circular logic to a minimum. Also forget about this website because we've already gone over how it's not an issue. I'd honestly like to know what the possible problem with that is.

As I stated before, I wasn't terribly clear. Under the circumstances you've just listed, there is no problem. I believe we've reached a peaceful conclusion to our discussion - a rare thing on teh interwebz - and have enjoyed talking with you. Thanks!

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would u guys stop posting such long posts i dont want to read all off that

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Quoting si1foo,