"Goes to show if enough people complain about something it will get changed...."
Yeah...about that. I've got to say I love this logic circuit as it is what I always here when someone's beloved class gets nerfed.
Basically the inference is this:
1.) For some "mysterious" reason people complain about class "such and such" being overpowered for unsubstantiated reason (cry more noobz)
2.) This cacophany of the Peanut Gallery rises to a chorus loud enough to be heard by the devs and therefore nerfs to class "such and such" are enacted.
3.) This obviously shows if people whine enough the Devs will cave and enact needless nerfs.
...or something to that effect.
However, this is a fault in logic because it ignores causality, not to mention it's pretty insulting to the Devs.
In reality, it's more like this.
1.) Class "such and such" is overpowered to the point that people of equal "skill" will be more effective with that class as opposed to others to the point that it's actually harming the overall quality of gameplay. This is also known as "abuse" or "cheese" in some game circles.
2.) Because the imbalance is so obvious a lot of people recognize this and rightfully complain in an effort to improve the game.
3.) The Devs, being players themselves are also likely aware of this and made more acutely aware by the complaints and therefore enact the nerfs.
Again, the issue is causality. In the former, the "cause" is the whining. In the latter, the "cause" is the actual imbalance.
To assume the former is to assume that the Devs are dolts and somehow just buckling to peer pressure. This is a position of ignoring the fact that the "whiners" may have been right to begin with.
Anyway, I'm not sure if this is worth it's own thread but since this is a recurring defense any time someone has their class get nerfed, I thought I'd spell it out as I see it.
/cheers.
Goes to show if enough people complain about something there's probably something wrong with it.....
To add:
I know Tyo from the Forged Alliance balancing, and he most certainly does not change something just because of popular opinion. GPG takes feedback into account to shape the feel of the game, but they never make balance changes just because a bunch of people say it should be done. In Forged Alliance they made it clear that it was their game, their balance, and that any complaints should be directed to them and not to other players.
The mass was right... for once. It's not always true, in this case they were but most of the time they're not. For example just look at people complaining about pyro's in TF2.
Thanks for the LULz.
Simply because 'everyone' says something doesn't make it true. Take, for example, the Rook -- despite my smash build being 'powerless', it's proven pretty darned effective against any solo opponent, and even multiples can be hurt.
Thank you . Hope this shuts up the dumbfucks like chaosnaska. Gawd that guy is retarded.
Nice Quote.........seeing as I know who it came from
/delte plz
Humans need to grieve.
I'm only half joking
Whether the change was needed or not there is always going to be a group of people who will feel slighted and or hurt by it. When other forum posters start saying things like 'now these people need to shut up' it is inevitable that some of the slighted will feel their grief is being invalidated and will lash out in response.
In the end a lot of these arguments have little if nothing to do about the issue at hand but instead have everything to do with how people are treating each other.
A bit of courtesy and tolerence from both parties would go a long way to making this place a lot more pleasant to visit.
True but this the internet. You could get a good part of people to do it. (I try but sometimes people are so stupid and / or ignorant) Getting everyone to? Pipe dream.
Absolutely Xinoxlx
Never hurts to encourage such behaviour though.
There was a distinct feeling of putting the boot into the players who were against the nerf in the above posts. I thought it worthwhile throwing out some perspective and pointing out that right or wrong people are going to protest the change. Its human nature.
Going around picking fights with these people isn't productive. Give them room to gripe about it and then we can all move on.
To borrow from the OP - Arguing and trying to stamp out the protests is its own failed logic circuit. There is this perception that unless a protest is met with an equally fervent counter argument that the devs are going to suddenly think "oh no we made a huge mistake - nobody is defending the balance change - lets change it back then"
Instead let the protest be full of sound and fury... signifying nothing when the thread slides from the front page.
(argh i've been working on this Hamlet assignment for too long)
Nah, I am sure they made this change solely based community outcry. It is not like they don't have statistic after statistic from the games over the last 3 weeks showing how dominating that Erebus could be. That can't be it at all. It has to be the peanut gallery.
At your first sentence I was like :
Then I read the whole thing and was like:
honestly, just let it go. how many of you are new to internet forums?
i think GPG did the right thing but the the amount of attention this is getting on the forums is excessive. yes, we know that people complain. yes we know that people get flamed for complaining. we know that some complaints are valid and others are not. we know that there's a vocal faction of people who are against any change to any game ever no matter what. we know that every change pisses someone off. we know that pissed off people make a ruckus on the internet forums.
its done. its over. the change has been made (or will be in very near future). balance changes are common in basically every game. most people already know this and expect things to be tweaked frequently.
its just the first nerf, it won't be the last. there may be buffs in the future as well. even talking about it at this point is besides the point.
as much as i agree with the OP (both in terms of supporting the nerf to bite and feeling a certain amount of disgust with people who complain about "forum whiners ruin everything") I feel like this just needs to be dropped now.
like i said, its just the first nerf, it won't be the last. time to play the game some more and figure out what the new balance looks like. time to start thinking about what the next major balance issue we should start discussing will be.
While I certainly wouldn't assume they did it purely because of the outcry, I believe it had a large part of doing it so soon.
Face it, the game has been getting reamed by its players/customers for its crap online performance. The publisher/devs have been trying to deliver promise after promise on why and how they will fix the system in place and yet patches continue to break stuff as they fix it and baisc match making functionality is shoddy at best. I would not be surprised that they are ansewering any and all calls of the community they still have in attempts to prevent further people from leaving the population and or being unhappy with the product.
Once it got to about 3-5 Erebus threads, some of them generating the majority of General page hits for the day it looked, I''m sure their focus became priority.
"Goes to show if enough people complain about something it will get changed...." = Truth
"The masses are always right" = False
Evidence 1: Noobs from the Dark Ages wanted to burn witches. So they did... kinda.
Evidence 2: Moar gullible noobs from the mid 1950s wanted to burn some damn commies.... so they blacklisted their asses.
Evidence 3: Noobs from before roam thought it t3h sucked that Rome was the epitome of civilization, so they convinced enough of them to burn Rome to the ground. The world has aspired to be the next Roman Empire ever since.
Unfortunately, there are more noobs than pros in ALL competitive games anyone plays. Noobs don't know how to Adapt and Conquer, so they QQ. Many of them get together and spam forums for their filthy causes, and ignorance about balance (how many of these whiners have ever played the OP guys?), then devs change it for them.
The comment 'Goes to show if enough people complain about something it will get changed....' is a casual comment about how Devs and noobs interact, and a small place to vent the frustration about noobs. Ultimately, pros merely adapt and choose another tactic, until the process of noobs QQing takes place again.
Noobs are why we can't ever have nice things.
/2cents added
As someone who's pretty decent, erebus was too strong. Op? No, but stronger then the other demi's? Definatly. No arguement can change that fact.
The drawback is now people just use op to label an imbalance rather then using proper terms to describe it.
I just took a look at what frogboys nerf was, and the corresponding thread.Man, I thought itd be fail to see the changes, but the laughable attempt at balance made me rofl. All three areas were nerfed beyond what they should have been, and it is so fail that it is win.
I'll just adapt and conquer. I honestly don't think Erebus' was OP in any way, and you will see a continuation of the noob onslaught due to overextending into my towers and aids. The only thing that changed was now I need to go for the Crown of 1500gold instead of Boots THEN crown.
Ok people, please do me this one favour.
Keira Knightley refuses to leave her boyfriend of four years and get with me. Complain please and change this farce. I must have Keira.
The realization came when someone would pick erebus and literally no other demi-god came to mind as a counter-pick, there is no counter-pick for erebus. Yet erebus to me is a counter-pick for everyone else.
He has extremely low armor, and the melee heroes are the ones you want to counter him.
Usually when I die, i get whittled down in a false sense of security by, say, a regulous, and he'll engage me in melee, run at 45% health, ill chase a bit, and he'll get back on me when i move back, and rinse/wash/repeat until im 20%, then he'll burst with mines/snipe.
Or I'll get into meleeing an Unclean Beast who will Spit/Rage/claws of stunage then spit on me again for a GG iz dead.
It's really common sense that allows a player to succeed against ANY and all Demigods. Don't run at a general who has over 9000 units on field, and don't fuck with an assassin's burst. These were the two lessons i learned in the day I was a noob.
Finally the voice of reason
It's one ability. When reducing the effectiveness of one ability "ruins" everything, you don't think you're overreacting? And if that one ability was so important - you don't see that as imbalanced?
are you sure your assumption here is correct after the game being out for only around a month. I hear great players who don't play erebus say he's not that big of a deal.
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