Ok, the idea for this is, to gather together arguments for why demigod is imbalanced. I'd like to restrict it to people who think it is imbalanced for a couple of pages, maybe longer if the discussion gets good. For a couple of reasons, one the issue turns into derisive flaming too quickly, or a close approximation thereof. Two-I think an opportunity to look at each other's ideas first, and be critical within a friendly conversation, prior to a larger debate that I think needs to happen. Three-an opportunity to make your thoughts cogent and clear for later discussion.
That's my plan...we'll see if it works.
What I'd like is for people to post what they think is imbalanced in the game, and for the like minded to discuss it. I do think it probably has balance problems, but I don't want to condemn it just yet, it hasn't been out too long, and there are technical issues that have a similar effect. I've had spells go unresponsive and have cost me (or an ally) a life, a kill, what have you (for example).
So post, I'm going to post what I think is a problem in a later post in this thread, but more than anything I want to get the discussion going.
I pretty much agree with Daikaze. Most of the demigods are fairly well balanced, but some abilities are too good or not good enough. The one thing I would add is Oak's last stand; it needs to be made so he cannot attack buildings while in last-stand mode, since it's virtually impossible to stop him from suicide bombing everything if the game goes on long enough.
I've played quite a few games and I've used every hero extensively to try to find the best ways to exploit their potential. To anyone that says the game is balanced, I would say to you that you're in fact bad at the game. (no offense)
That game is designed for 1:1 as much as it is 5:5. The skirmish and pantheon games cover all sizes of available matchups which creates an inherent disconnect between heroes that are amazing in 1v1 and those that are amazingly only in games > 1v1.
Two other factors are often overlooked and that is game mode and the map you're on. Rook is much stronger on prison and the brothers than any other map and vamp has a clear advantage on crucible and exile.
Game mode can be a huge factor in what heros are stronger than others in a given game. Take crucible on fortess mode for example. Whever holds the flag gets 2 free fortess kills and some heroes are better at holding a patch of ground i.e. early rook vs tb.
Best of luck trying to get people to have a good discussion on these forums. 90% of my games I play people shit talk me and/or ragequit because they know they're going to lose. How you expect to get some constructive debate from those people is beyond me.
The only debuff I think Erebus needs is make it so that he loses all positive effects/buffs as well as negative effects when he enters mist form. That way, he can't bite->mist->bite his way to victory. Likewise, it would lose its effectiveness as a healing tool, and really be a stalling tool over anything else.
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I dissagree if u nerf shield for QoT then she would be real gimped.However the shield should have an immunity timer on other players but herself
yea well i have seen it on both ends eb v oak at lvl 1 oak losses needs to retreat.
mid game oak can holds it own beter but still needs to retreat. late game same thing however if played right ,speced right its even.
Remind me: Does Eberus's bite give him mana, or only hp?
You people should really read the OP. He didnt ask if you think the game is op. He didnt whine about getting owned. Let me quote the relevant part:
So list specific things that you think are OP.
Ok my list of OP/UP things:
Mines need a slightly longer arming time. You need to be able to get out of the area if you leave right away. Even if you play a rook without +speed and are slowed by the regulus ranged slow ONLY. At the moment they are a bit too good for EVERYthing since you can use them as direct damage and a slow. The mark needs to get more damage but less duration.
Rook is a bit on the squishy side. Imo he's the easiest to take down. Thats why the tower spamming build is the only one that works. If you nerf the towers he'll be useless and if you make him more durable, he'll be immortal with the towers so imo he needs a redesign or an option to choose one or the other.
Erebus is imo slightly too good, but there isnt any particular power that is too good. Perhaps everything should have a slightly longer cd or something. Then again you seem to need quite a bit of skill to use him since there only seem to be horrible ones and steamrollers..
Spit is ok, but I too would be for making the abilities that remove debuffs better or just cheaper.
Oaks shield should have a lower CD by 5-10s.
If adding a bit more damage to shatter makes it overpowered, remove some debuffs from it. If that doesnt work, you should at the very least remove it from the combopoint (fire&ice or something?) and connect fireball to rain of ice instead. There should also be more incentives to play a hybrid fire/ice TB. That fire&ice tweak should help with that.
Sedna and QoT minions are in desperate need of buffs. QoT needs to have less mana trouble. I keep getting all slots full of mana items and the heart and still run out of mana at annoying times.
Mechanics:
The game needs to be more responsive. Every time the char decides not to use a power until I order him to move and I die in the couple of seconds it takes him to do something (like shield/heal), I get an urge to break something.
I dont like stuns (or any hard cc for that matter) either. In particular the AoE stuns are overpowered when several DGs are fighting several DGs.
Even Heart of Life? I thought that one stayed. Then again, I don't use either mist form or HoL that much anyway, so I wouldn't know.
qot's minions should get stronger when you upgrade the summon shambler as well.
Uproot is useless..By the time you get it to high lvls you can melee the tower's faster and to spend 6 points to get it somewhat good is just Gnaa.Should add the dmg near building from rank 2 or 3.
Bite should cost a little more mana.With 1 cooldown flag you can dish it every 5 secs with only the 2 middle tier helmets forever.
Spit on towers takes em down quite easily in early lvls compared to other classes except reg.Should lower the spit dmg on buildings.same thing with oak's last stand.
Increase the casting time on the flag locking item.I just find them uttermost annoying that they control the endgame so much.Endgame in some maps is just about who can run fastest to portals :j
Agree on the mines.Just a little more rearming time
Only post worth reading so far in this thread, but the first paragraph is a bit harsh, this game by design will never be perfectly balanced. I really don't think this can really be discussed properly untill clan vs clan or there's more competitive play with bigger teams.
Let me remind you about a very relevant post:
http://forums.demigodthegame.com/351282
Chaosnaska, I'm looking at YOU
This thread is about identifing any imbalances even if they're small. Surely the game couldn't be 100% balanced. I'm sure everyone agrees with that.
I find that the people who believe in things like "Nothing is IMBA it's all 100% balanced it's the player who sucks." also belive fairy tales like "Your child could be the next einstein." and "the world's a fair place if you put in a solid day's work."
the problem trying to nerf LE's bite is that if you nerf it even a tiny bit to much he becomes pretty useless compared to all the other demigods. its really his only decent damaging move, max bat swarm does in the 500's(iirc i could be wrong). i think the best thing to do with it is add maybe 2-3 more secs on the cooldown or take a small amount of the slow effect off. if i remember correctly through most the beta LE was one of or the worst demigod then they buffed him towards the end and is where hes at now.
dont get me wrong i think hes far from the auto win char alot of ppl think he is but bite could use a slight nerf, and i think UB's spit could use a very slight nerf as well maybe increase in cooldown or make it affected by armor.i agree that QoT's uproot needs a buff but im not sure howmuch would be a good amount without breaking fortress matches.
regulas snipe is fine as far as im concerned, if you know a reg is in the game then just keep an eye on your health and try to stay out of view(early lvls).late game snipe jus becomes a slight annoyance.rook imo needs a buff to let him get in there and tango without relying so much on towers. im not sure if its just his durability or ppl not grabbing the right items ill have to check it out and get back to you.
other than that nothing really comes to mind but im sure im missing something, thanks for taking the time to read my post sorry if wall of text critted anyone.
So you are saying there are a lot of different situations that arise, and that different tactics work better in different situations... Would you also agree that every DG can be the best one available in a given situation? If so, don't you think this game has at least a good start on balance?
Heres why demigod is balanced(or pretty damn close to being):
http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/
this could be used to stop AI farming too
QoT is very under powered early game. She has a nearly impossible time getting kills and can be killed very easily early game. The only thing she can really do early game is farm creeps and use bramble shield.
QoT is the only dg with a skill geared to structure dmg, but its useless, compared to Oak around the same lvl that QoT can get max skill level. It takes her alot longer to take down structures where as Oak can walk through them as if they were water with just normal melee (comparably items for dg on both sides for around the same cost).
Oak late game is extremely overpowered to other dgs with UB coming in second. If you don't think so take sometime to play each dg in single player tournaments on hard difficulty learn how to the play the dg to its most potential against hard difficulty now go back and play at least 3 or 4 tournaments for each dg. Which dg did you have the easiest time to complete the tournaments how fast and easily was it accomplished. This is also taking into account of buying good gear for each demigod and make sure you spend comparable amounts of gold on each demigod. I did this with and without artifacts. Oak out shown every other dg without question. UB was second but not even close to what Oak could accomplish and QoT came in last. Eventhough I find QoT as the most enjoyable dg to play for me I like her AoE abilities and bramble shield. Now one final note I did not play reg or eub during my tests, my personal preference I just don't think they would be fun to play for me, but I will try them out as time permits just to make sure they don't change my thoughts here.
Also wanted to add when playing skirmish or patheon you can never be garanted which dgs you will be grouped with, I have not played a 4 vs 4 game with one of each demigod yet so I don't even know if that is balanced, but for those of you who state that the only way to talk about balancing is to say this dg is the counter for this dg and so on. This can not be looked at for that point of view, because you do not have a choice who is matched up with you in patheon or skirmish and I like how it is random and stops the whole team ganking, but each dg should have a decent chance of defeating the other dg in a one on one match up no matter which dgs are matched up and this should be through all stages of the game where both sides have comparable monies and equipment to expend and comparable lvls. This is true balancing. And I am talking about evenly skilled people as well. This is clearly not the case currently.
Ok, I wanted to try to get more of my comments together prior to actually making my post, but I don't want to put it off any longer.
There are a lot of factors in the game, experience and gold, your health and mana, your attacks your dodge and armor, your buildings, the strength of them, creeps, types and strength, the list goes on a bit obviously.
What has come to my mind most recently is that purchases of the same amount in gold do not equal the same expenditure in another area. I'm sure you've seen citadel upgrades that include only one column, or a couple of columns. That shows pretty plainly how some dynamics are negligible in many circumstances (not all, I think they can factor a bit, but I've seen grossy imbalanced citadel upgrades win matches). One of the things this does is provide a place to lose money, which has obvious consequences. Of course there is a qualitative difference between these things, and making the right choice is important. But upgrading your towers often isn't as effective as getting a good suit of armor and driving your attackers back. In some sense what I'm trying to say is that comparable expenditures for similar purposes don't have equitable value. Some of this is a good thing, some bad. If there were only one solution to the problems you faced in game, not only would the game be boring (because a simple pat solution to each problem is just repetition after a while) but it would destroy another dynamic in the game, that is forcing you to respond to things that are ongoing, dealing with multiple issues etc. The ways in which it is bad are pretty obvious, portions of the game are literally of little value, and the potential that game options could be discarded and not significantly affect the outcome of games means that there are bad design elements.
I think this becomes most obvious when you're dealing with a particular demigod. You buy something to do a certain thing, and if it's ineffective, that's money wasted, even if it is an ostensible solution, and you often subsequently can't afford an effective solution. and cash management is an important factor in the game.
being untouchable is a difficulty. I think this is part of where the issues with Regulus and Erebus come from. Erebus is untouchable in mist form, and Regulus can stay out of conflicts really easily. Early on Regulus players will often hide behind towers and fire at you, or running as soon as you advance, making them nearly unapproachable at low levels. You also take damage consistently as you approach, possibly also having to deal with mines. Closing the gap for most of the players is crucial to attacking effectively, but going into enemy territory before having done a lot of damage to their towers is a death sentence, or very likely. he can also attack enemy buildings without getting hurt. This makes a kind of logical sense since he has a missle weapon, but in terms of game balance I think it's a problem. QoT, ostensibly good at tearing down structures, takes damage from towers if she melees them, which she needs to do to get things done quickly (yes she has uproot, but that isn't enough on it's own). This strikes me as a problem someone ostensibly good at doing damage to these things has to take damage to attack a tower, but regulus doesn't, he can even throw mines at towers and have them do damage without getting hurt. I think one thing to do with regulus that would help would be to limit him to one set of mines at a time. If he has a set out, he can't throw another set until those he has already thrown get set off. Maybe he could have the ability to right click them to set them off if he wants to move them...
anyway, this post sort of blows, but I wanted to post some of my thoughts so I wasn't neglecting to contribute. I was sort of too distracted by the trolls to do anything yesterday. Sorry.
agree about shamblers and yeti, pure cannonfodder. I'd rather have cheap ineffecitve followers like erebus and oak, than expensive ineffective followers.
I'm not to fond of stacking at all, but I think the idea of diminishing returns seems like a good way to change it, better than a nerf or barring of stacking.
I also agree that compost is a little underpowered, and spit can be a bit much at times. Spit and mines shouldn't work on buildings imo.
Less mines he already has been nerfed down from 50 to 6 he probably needs a increase in mines if anything. They also nerfed snipes damage how much do you want to take away from one character.
When did this happen?
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