Our story so far...
The initial release of Demigod was marred due to us not taking into account pirates trying to get validated when we set up our network infrastructure. This resulted in the multiplayer game being basically unplayable which resulted in some pretty negative first day reviews.
48 hours later, we set up an alternative network for legitimate players, released a Demigod update and most people were able to connect - but with a big catch:
Demigod also debuted with a technology internally referred to as "Super NAT". The idea was to let people be able to connect to other people without having to mess with routers or anything. And it worked great in theory. In the beta, we noticed that the connection servers required a lot of resources to do their thing quickly. No problem, we added more servers and added still more again for the release. But that turned out to have been a vast under-estimation still as it wasn't a linear progression but an exponential one.
So over the past 2 weeks, we ditched what we had and started from scratch. Late last week, because we realized that time is of the essence, the Impulse team at Stardock got assigned to the project and we began to use Impulse tech to build something new.
The new system supports Direct Connection (which is pretty traditional - port forwarding). If that fails, it will use NAT negotiation. And if that fails it'll hook up to a series of Proxy servers to handle it.
Tonight
The proxy services will not be in tonight's build because of the lateness and we don't want to put that up and then leave for the evening only to wake up in the morning, go over to Shack News or Voodoo Extreme and see a headline "Stardock's Network becomes sentient, begins world conquest!" or something. So we'll wait until Wednesday during the daylight hours to turn that part on.
We are marking this build as a BETA still since it's so late into the evening we don't want to take any chances.
Expected Results
This update isn't the end all, be all update. This week is the week of putting this pain behind us. Tonight's update is just the first step. Without the proxy, you'll still have people who will fail on the NAT and we are sure, given the sheer quantity of changes, that there will probably be some problem in there since we've had to take out most of the licensed code and replace it with Impulse code. But based on what we're seeing it should be much better for most people.
If you are one of the people who it doesn't work for, hang in there. If you are part of the majority who is having no problem with Demigod, I realize that we keep focusing on connectivity versus game enhancements or improving the Pantheon and such it's just that my first priority is to make sure everyone can play the game online as well as single player.
The team at GPG and at Stardock are already working on v1.01 which will have the kinds of new features and such our users are used to seeing in Stardock games. But we have felt it would be in bad taste to talk about new features while there are people who couldn't play online so I hope you understand why we've not been talking about that yet.
Testing
So now we’re testing it with people on the chat channels and learning lots of things that we can now pass on to you.
Below are some suggestions for connecting faster. You don't have to do them but they will make a huge difference in how fast you connect and how widely you can connect to other people.
First if your router has an SPI “firewall” you may find you have a better experience if you turn it off. SPI firewalls provide good protection against random packets coming in but the downside is that on some consumer routers, it will prevent you from directly connecting to another player forcing the NAT servers (which are far slower) to pick up the slack.
Next: You need to make sure your router is port forwarding to ports 6100 through 6200 to whatever IP address your computer is using. Don’t assume your machine is that IP address because there’s a good chance it’s not.
If you do these things right, you’ll be able to DIRECT-Connect with the new Impulse Reactor we’re releasing tonight. If you don’t, it will fail over to the new Impulse Reactor NAT negotiation system we’ve been working on the past 2 weeks which is a thousand times better than what we already have out but it will slow everyone down.
If THAT fails, then it really gets painful because then you’re going to be sent over to one of the Proxy servers. These sound great in theory and they have the nice advantage of working basically 100% of the time but it will probably take us weeks to set up enough of these to make everyone happy because we have to locate them near you otherwise lag will be high.
If you're afraid of port forwarding go here: http://www.portforward.com/
ONCE IN GAME
The next thing we’ve discovered: There is a lot of software out there now that packet sniffs. Anti-virus programs even Google Desktop. How do you know if something is sniffing packets on your system? The game will stutter – go for a couple seconds, then pause a bit, go for a couple seconds, pause, and so on. There’s not much we can do on our end to stop that. You can try lowering your graphics settings but odds are, someone you’re playing has something that’s sniffing through your packets and slowing things down. And it only takes one person in the game to have this to make it stutter for everyone.
BTW, in the 10 person game we were playing, *I* was the one with the firewall applet I had forgotten to turn off that was monitoring packets. So it can happen to the best of us.
The update status
So they’re putting it together now. It’ll still be a couple hours because of all the uploading that has to do. Everyone’s very excited.
Again: If there are any IT people hanging around reading this, I’m not a network guy but I am being told by people that the fact that the entire backend for this game has been completely re-designed and re-implemented in 2 weeks is super insane.
Once this is up, our team will be talking at length at what was learned. What I keep being told is this: What works fine for 500 people can totally fall apart for 5,000 people and that’s what we’ve run into in a nutshell for these past 2 weeks.
Known bugs
Tonight's build does have an annoying bug in that it says Sim speed is 0 for you so you can't tell how well you're running. We've informed GPG and it'll get fixed in an upcoming update.
Favor points should acrue without a problem with tonight's build as well.
I'd like to say thanks to Demigod I figured out ports lol ^^. I've tried so many times to figure it all out but gave up each time but with Demigod I got it all down ^^. It was my firewall have to forward ports in there too.
Just have to say, as far as it goes, this next patch is either going to make or break this games future. As I see this game slowly go down in players, games, and even down on forum boards.
Logged in for the first time in a few days with a friend, we thought we would try to see if it would work this time. Turns out, there is only about 4 games total for the pre-release build, we both downloaded that because at times when we host or connect we can not connect or be connected to -certain- players. We both have fast and steady connections as well. Makes sense to try it.
Anyways, out of the FOUR FUCKING GAMES, 2 were locked, 1 was in europe, and the last one was 4/8. We tried the last one, as soon as we joined about 10 others joined it while connecting, then nobody could connect and got kicked because so many tried to join at once. By no means do we just play occasionally either, sometimes we spend hours every night playing and trying to actually get something going.
Awesome. Just awesome. A game that could have been competely epic basically gets far worse after every patch. Please stop feeding us crap about when these things are going to be done. You said proxy would be up last Friday, then Monday, then this Thursday? Who cares when it is. Get what needs to be done...done. Stop leaving for the weekends, stay up late, get the problem fixed. Stop staying things can not be put in "tonights" build, when you could easily make it so. Stay as late as it takes to get it done and finished. While GPG is responsible to, I hardly think they care as much as Stardock does. Which is somewhat of a good thing. It is your job to do those things done, especially at crunch time. This is starting to be really disappointing.
/rant
I make no promises that any update is going to solve a particular user's problem. All I can say is that it should dramaticaly improve things for those people who are having problems.
Now, let me make something bloody clear to you: It's a VIDEO GAME. Do you understand? A video game. We, the publisher of the game, have put developers on improving connectivity and been working over 70 hours a week on this since the game's release. They've had one weekend off in the past month.
So no, I'm not going to work my people literally to death so that some obnoxious user can use built in match-making. If you're so impatent, use something like game ranger or what have you.
Personally, I hope you never purchase anything from us. In fact, feel free to return the game and go away.
All we can do is try our best to work with GPG and Raknet to continue to improve connectivity for those who are having problems. But I can't make promises that it will solve whatever particular issue you have.
BTW, yesterday, our team came in at 9am and did not leave until the following morning (7am). That's a 22 hour day. Sorry that's not good enough for you.
Favor is still broken. More often than not games will start with 0 Favor points even if the player does indeed have over 1000 Favor points, and all Favor items will therefore be unpurchasable and unusable due to that bug(s). Sometimes some players in the same games get to use Favor items whilst the others who are victimized by that bug(s) do not, creating a terrible imbalance.
This is not a new day, it's the same old day it's always been, with one of the fundamental features of the game, Favor items, still remaining horrendously broken.
Is Favor ever going to be fixed? I realized you have stated "it is easy to fix", so then, why doesn't it ever get fixed, and if you do intend to fix it, when do you intend to fix it?
Also I don't get why it was twice stated that this patch would fix Favor items (in the quoted text from the OP of this thread, and in the OP of the first thread about the beta version of this patch), when it doesn't?
I would say something negative about eX^ but Frogboy said enough.
Some people might find this kind of post from the president of a company bad PR, me, I find the idea that the person 'behind' one of my favorite companies is human quite comforting.
AKA: Hit him harder Frogboy!
Man a 22 hour workday, i couldnt imagine the amount of yelling and bitching at eachother. The good thing is that eventually it will work, and it is just a game.. so you can always do something else untill its fixed.
ITT: Frogboy pwns an entitlement baby.
I would work for 22 hours if I was getting paid what they are getting paid....Its so pitiful being a college student
Dear Frogboy,
Please realize that for every person that is like the poster above there are many more who do appreciate the inordinate amount of work and transparency that you and Stardock are putting into the situation. This is a tough situation for everyone, but I can hardly fault you for all the communication and positive feedback you've given. I for one am completely satisfied with the support that has been given.
Keep up the good work, and personally I say take normal work hours! There are more important things in life than video games as pointed out. I can't speak for everyone, but as a customer I'm completely happy so long as I'm informed and progress is made which it has been.
That post by frogboy was probably a bit unnecessary, I wouldn't be getting in the habbit of dealing with customers like that - sure you guys are working hard etc, but gamers that have bought the game are also getting pretty frustrated, spending hours upon hours trying to get the game working (yes we also are spending many unpaid hours on the game trying to play the damn thing till 4am).
We have all pulled 22 hour days in the past to get done what needs to be done, this can be quite common in the development industry. Having said that you know your teams limits so just work within them, some people excel under pressure with lack of sleep but not everyone does. You don't have to let us know how many hours you are working - just tell us you are working around the clock to solve the problem
You are in the unfortunate position that the game was released without proper testing for whatever reason, but please keep in mind that people have paid for the game expecting it to work - so don't go and tarnish your reputation by a few haphazard lack of sleep posts.
Never make a nasty post while you are tired, sleep on it and see if it's worth posting the next day, this will save you from a few regretful posts. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by talking like that to a customer, it could all have been said much more politely, regardless of what the customer said.
That's my opinion anyway.
No doubt. The man keeps it real! Karma given to the man!
Baby? I am not being one at all. Just saying what needs to be said, especially if after 3 weeks I can barely connect to 1 in 5 games a night and almost double that chance while playing with my online friend. Mainly with the time restraints we have during each night and weekend basically being the same. I feel sorry for the game and GPS/Stardock really. As tough as it is to fix things that require such attention and time.
Oh yeah? That is excellant. If you had said that in your journals I would have easily have understood. Sorry, but forgive my tone of my post. I think you misread it in more of a rude and disrespecting manner. Sheez was quite right, many things in that post should not have been said I think, both sides are frustrated and I clearly can not see that on your end, at least from what you say you are doing on your journals. 22 hour work days? Good, I am really glad you are.
I was not meaning to be disrespectful, as that is not the kind of person I am. I was merely meaning basically what Sheez has said and thank him for his input.
Also, Gameranger works maybe half the time. We try to play on it but more than half the games are locked or pirated. If we do get one started without somebody not loading or crashing then great, I still prefer your online service than a third party program.
I know you are the CEO of Stardock and really hope you do not mean this post. As I am just a frustrated customer myself, I know I speak for quite a few others who do not post, talk to in game, and convinced to buy the game but can not play because of the state it is in.
I check on your journals everytime they come up to see what is going on or what is being worked on. I just wish you had said how much you had been working on it, that is really all it is about. Obnoxious user? Thanks Brad. I bought and beta tested your game since it has been available, made several topics saying improvements that would keep this game in good shape (which quickly made it to the bottom of the list), submitted a very detailed Demigod in your topic, as well as many other positive things I thought would help improve this game.
Why would I return the game? I have shown how much I have enjoyed the game and expressed my input through the past months as much as I could. Do you honestly feel this way about anyone who is frustrated with online? Is this what you want to tell them but you tell me instead? I take it your post was meant to be rude? You simply could have said very nicely how much your team has been working, maybe I missed in a journal or whatever, thats all you had to say. Thanks for inconsiderate comments though. I wont hold it against you since I assume you are pulling all nighters now.
[quote who="eX^" reply="2" id="2188757"]Stop leaving for the weekends, stay up late, get the problem fixed. Stop staying things can not be put in "tonights" build, when you could easily make it so. Stay as late as it takes to get it done and finished. [/quote]
They've been working long hours for over 3 weeks.
There's been a ton of research into productivity gains from working extra hours and the general consensus is that statistically, the team working on this issue is due to crash and burn soon, in which case longer hours does NOT get the problem fixed in less time but quite the opposite.
It's OK to be frustrated / irritated with these issues, but your demands aren't only unreasonable, they're outright stupid and wrong
Where is this statistic? How do you know everyone is the same and their work ethic is the same? I personally work better at late nights and staying up til early morning. I did not say, "stay up and never go to bed or go home". That would be just "outright stupid and wrong" to do. As I clearly put in my post I did not see how late they were staying nights and weekends and now I do. I hope you got the actual point in my post.
After buying galciv2 and sins, two really good games, I did not hesitate to buy demigod. My experience in playing the game has been fun but very frustrating, I have yet to connect to more than 2 other players . But I am quite happy to wait until all the problems have been iron out. Why!! Because it is a awesome game. I can't wait to be able to play this game fully. I also know down the track the add on's, new gods, new map, enhancements is going to make this game stick out from the unimaginative games out there.
So Frogboy and the stardock crew keep up the good work, keep us informed, I look forward to playing demigod in the months to come and to see what you come up with.
Looking forward to buy Elemental next year.
Frogboy - Do you need a forum moderator, as I will gladly volunteer my time to do that. I've only been able to play a few multiplayer matches since I purchased the game last week, and even though I've lost almost every single match, I really enjoy playing the game. I know you guys will work out all your issues eventually, and I have a feelintg this game is going to be great. There really is nothing like this game out on the market currently, that is sold as a standalone game. I'm not counting DoTA.
+1
I'm in shock of all the people thinking its ok to release a game in this shape, and backing someone who has a very short temper. I'm in shock to see so many people thinking it was cool and ok for Frogboy to respond like that. To post something so completely unprofessional is just, wow. I don't even know what to say to the post above. Sure it may have pissed you off, I'm sure you are working very hard, that's not my point, I appreciate the work being done now. Frogboy, your post was completely unnecessary and rude.
If it was completely necessary to release when you all did, then I can understand and also appreciate the hard work being put in right now. But this game was months from release.
I've read that in beta it all looked ok. But you knew that the system had a chance to be crippled with thousands more users. So beta should have consisted of more people.
I just had to respond to the absurd reply from a man in charge for all the public to see. Once again, wow.
For people who work in retail, they know that some customers can never be fully satisfied....even when they see you working the best you can. To them, I say "Piss Off"
This
FROGBOY!!!!!!!!!!!Go to sleep! Thank you and all the dev's for all the hard work.
While I have been frustrated in the past with buying games that wheren't finished (would you want to buy a steak dinner that came sans-steak, with a promise that steak would be sent to you within the next few weeks), this really isn't as bad as it could be. When UT3 came out, more things didn't work than did. :/ Really, really basic things... and they never fixed things that UT2004 contained, let alone several big things they promised.
I can see how infrastructre could fail when their server load suddenly increased a hundredfold, and there's no way to test what happens when 100000 people try to connect than to actually have that happen, and you can't do that with a beta. You also clearly can't tell what will happen when thousands of hackers suddenly try to break into your system until that happens, either.
So, in all... while understandably frustrating for all parties involved, there's some bumps you can't solve until you hit them.
Way to go Frogboy.
By the way I haven't had a single pantheon or skirmish game because I'm in Singapore. However I don't have ants in my pants like that a-hole. It's a game that doesn't work quite right, as least I know that you're working on it. I can't say the same for many other game developers out there.
We are all human beings and we should treat each other as such. It's so easy to hide behind a computer and be a complete tool like that Ex guy. And I understand why you would post such an angry reply.
I'd advise you not to get angry over a tool. In fact, ignore them totally, IMO they've lost the right to support from the moment said tool ordered you not to sleep, not to go back on weekends and to work on the game 24/7. No decent human being would order that from a fellow human being. Only a tool would do that.
And as a fellow human being, I would shake your hand and thank you for all the dedication and the effort you have put in so far.
Just a small note, the game is getting released on the 15th May in Singapore. If you could get it up and running by then, I would be so happy to spread that news for you.
Respect.
Signed,
Zulhardy.
aka
VoodooKing
I may be in the vast minority here, but I would be happy if more people running video game companies were more like Frogboy. Sure he may occassionally come off as rude, but I find that the level of feedback given to the customers (all of us on the forum) to be exceptional. I'm sure many people on this forum have been seriously burned by game companies that release a broken product and never even acknowledge the problems exist let alone actually fix them. I find much comfort in the fact that it's obvious Frogboy and the rest of the Demigod folks care about fixing these issues and are not afraid to act like real people. Even if it means being rude to a customer who (although they may not have meant it) came off as a whining asshole (no offense to anybody, I just call 'em like I see 'em). Honestly, and this goes for anybody anywhere, if you are so easily offended by some words typed by a person half way across the world on the internet, log off right now and go outside and take a deep breath. Seriously. Go. Right now. The internet will be here when you get back.
Call me a fanboy if you like (I wouldn't agree with you, but that's another argument that doesn't belong here), but I have purchased GalCiv one and two along with Sins of a Solar Empire. Each of those titles has received great support and I've never seen a publisher nor a developer actually live up to problems with their product as much as Stardock with the Demigod release. Even though these few weeks haven't been as smooth as we all hoped (by a long shot), I am confident that if anybody will fix this problem it's Stardock.
I could keep typing all night about this, but I've probably pissed sombody off and they need to take a break so I'll end my post here.
Bottom line: Everybody at Stardock and at home trying fruitlessly to connect to an online game of Demigod is more than a little on edge. Sure Frogboy may come off as rude when sombody presses the wrong button, but I'd prefer a rude "unprofessional" CEO that has a record of getting stuff done over a polite and very well-mannered guy who just ignores the problem. I'm sure I'm not alone...
Why not use UPNP? Sure not all routers support it but for the growing number that do, wouldn't you get all the benifits of port forwarding without requiring the user to be tech-savvy enough to do it themselves?
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