Logitech, Made in China.

How many people there, working?

Middle class families, basic better education, jobs perspective as opposed to industrial infrastructures that can or not provide anything where & when necessary.

Cuz, after all money can buy you a comfy place in society.

Sure it isn't and nothing else is either.

The problem with Capitalism is not BY & FROM people -- it's invisible free-market corporation X which pays less to the workforce to distribute profits that create abusive wealth for people who DO NOT work.

Invest by banking interest gains or losses?

If you have to borrow (Compounded, btw) from Banks to be educated enough to work to spend to live, what's next?

They come knocking to mortgage the wakeup clock you bought?

Next morning, you'd be fired for showing up late.

While your minimal service bills pile up.

Wanna know why?

Luxury by capitalism feeds the wrong accounts instead of population that contributes.

Illusion and i'll prove it to you.

They both militarized enough to justify spending on fear. Pollution through hyper-industrialization and generalized hikes in consumeurism as people got plenty of cash to waste from working. It's called a Bubble in economic terms. That's the Cold War balloon.

Well, the bubble goes up & then down... but it's still a bubble.

Inflation rates followed by recession conditions, scare me or please me.

Booming scoops of the opportunity, a barrel at 125$ soon to be blown to pieces at 50$.

I could list thousands of specific areas where expenses served as billboards over highways so wide, even publicity stunts would try selling a car at Zero financing instead of 9% and counting.

Why?

Because, suddenly people realize they've been screwed by a trap; Pricing of goods & services valued above it's real cost. Better known as profits through capitalism in a Bubble.

Not always. I'll get back to this situation after I have more time to write.

BUT - I will say this is more a result of how individual companies are set up, not necessarily a direct result of capitalism.

Yes, I do truly wanna know why you spouted some crazy scenario. It kinda broke down when you mentioned the alarm clock.

. . . and capitalism isn't to blame for our education working the way it does. We threw away treating the education system as a capitalist system a long time ago. These days, it's mostly a government run program.

What exactly are "wrong" accounts, and why do you think they are wrong?

What would be the "right" accounts in your mind?

How do you think the accounts should be fed?

How exactly does this explain why the USSR collapsed and the USA didn't?

How does this make it an illusion, as you claim?

Last I checked, despite the conditions you describe our economy is functioning. Maybe not 100% smoothly, but it's functioning.

How is being profitable a bad thing? Gotta make money somehow.

I'd disagree. They're pretty highly dependent on trade with the USA to keep money flowing into their nation. I think they'd collapse without it.

Can you prove this?

Greed is a problem - but I think it's a problem in any system. I wouldn't blame Capitalism for greed.

Communism/socialism doesn't fix the money problem, as they don't have money either.

Having a finite amount of money isn't the result of whether you're using capitalism or communism or any other system - it's a reflection that the world has finite resources.

The truth is we live in a world that works in this way:

• We have vastly unequal amounts of resources in various parts of the world.
  
• Different people want different things.
• Groups of people create finished products, and these groups often need more resources to create the finished product.
  
• We maintain various political and social structures. They need resources as well.

There is never going to be a one size fits all system. I don't think there's necesarilly a magic bullet, although I do think that some systems seem to work better than others.

Hi everyone,

im fairly used to read through SoaSE forums for quiet some time, but never felt like signing up and posting something myself. Until today, when i discovered this topic and unbelievable amount of naivity of some people here regarding socialism. And i had to write something to open few eyes ...perhaps

First of all, thank you to Bojangles and Cobra A1 for speaking sense. I live in former Czechoslovakia and i know a bit about communism/socialism and how my country changed in recent 20 years. I can tell you one thing - its by FAR, FAR BETTER today. Socialism is one big bullshit. It doesnt work and never will. And while many people seem to think, that its nice idea, just poorly realised, its not even that.

I find it always amusing, when people from the West (America and Western Europe) speak about how capitalism is evil and socialism right. Its obvious they dont know, what they talk about, because they never experienced it - unlike us in the eastern Europe.

To CocaColaAddict: Please stop reading Marx. Its really not the best source of info, when you want to learn something about human society and economy. Try F.A. Hayek instead for example. Socialism is not the way to faster progress of human race, its the way to hell. USSR had never chance to defeat USA in the ColdWar and there is a reason, why it doesnt exist anymore. And that is a good thing of course, no matter what people in former USSR think about it today. Your father seem to tell you lot of good things about living in USSR, how everything was cheap and so on. But did he tell you about political freedom back then as well? What about the fact people couldnt leave the country without permission and were shot, when they tried to "run" to West? What about the fact, that you couldnt study at the university, when your family didnt have the "right" political opinion? And the fact that people with university diploma had lesser social status than regular workers? What about the queues in  the stores for bananas or that it wasnt literally enough toilet paper in the end, because there wasnt working free market? Did your father tell you about that?

Believe me, theres nothing good about socialism, not even its mantra about equality of people.  And the picture you posted - the one with the republican car - it is true and it is right.

As we said here, we are not really fighting on what is better
both sistems are far from perfect

i find it difficult to follow some subjects here as my english is somewhat limited
but as far as i see it, western societis such as USA suffer from just enough problems, same as socialism.
Lets put an excample shall we? take a single young man, without education, working experiance, or much of
anything ales, give him a green card and drop him inthe middle of New york.
Now i give him quiet a good chance to end up homless drunk and drug addict that will die
due to lack of halth care in about... few years. (as he cant afford the health insurance)

Now take the same guy, give him a red passport, and drop him in former USSR Moscow.
It will take him 1 day to find a place to sleep, and few weaks to get appt'
he will find a job on day one, no matter of his education or lack of skills...
and he will recive a high quality proper education.

sure he will be limited, he will have to be communist within his heart and think as communist
when he will finish university, he will work not sothat he will get himself a better car
but so that his country will be better.

now before anyone reply to this remember 2 things:
1. USSR had the most advanced communism (among other communist countrys), yet it still wasnt 100% effective
2. You got nothing in life for free, both in communism and capitalism
while with capitalism you inslave yourself to your boss to gain things such as healthcare and so on...
with communism all you have to do is to believe in the sistem, and to commit yourself to it
the strict laws are just there to make your life into something batter!

the fact USSR closed its borders is due the fact that the west capitalism showed people all the "cool"
cars and computers they had, so people went like "WOW i want this too" and it triggered the greed in them
and started a wave of uniquality when one have more then the other
greed is something we all have, yet its something that must be eliminated, the only way to do it
is by taking away some of the freedom one have.
You still can buy things that you like, you still can have a nice fammily, you still can enjoy life
and raise your kids to be smart and happy, what do you need more? BMW and a plazma TV?
USSR had one of the best programs on youth health care with advanced sport programs to inspire
the youth to be phisicly fit, and with free education to be also smart.
and what do you have in the USA with all the free people in there?
Overwaight Epidemic, unblelivble ignorance among many of the americans who cant even READ!
streets filled with homless people due to lack of ability to pay back loans
and now with the crisis, Tent Towns! where people who lost thair houses to the bank are forced to live in a tent!
a health care sistem where, if you cant afford it, they throw you to the street! where 14 year olds carrieng guns..
Sure... Capitalism and the USA as a "freedom" country is so much better...

ill stick with communism thank you...

You seem to think, that if someone wants something "more" than the others, he is automatically greedy. And this is exactly, why is socialism bad and why it failed miserably. In a free - capitalistic society  you have the right to buy what you want, if you  worked hard enough to earn enough money for it. Even the BMW and NO, IT DOESNT MAKE YOU GREEDY. You just realise your dream and that is the meaning of human life. You dont live just to survive, you live to achieve something and nobody has the right to tell you, that you cant do it. Whatever makes you happy.

That is the flaw of socialism and the reason why it will never work. It doesnt care about the quality of life, about the fact, that people, why equal, are different. It makes you believe you cant accomplish more in your life than the others, bacause you are all "equal". But if you are good enough and work harder than the others, you deserve better than them.

In the USA, there are people who dont do shit, and have the money for everything
or do a little, and can buy something expancive, yet there are also many who do much more
then both middle class and the rich, like totaly much more, and can bearly afford food, they are americans too btw...
so where is the equality?

In every single capitalist country, 1 person earn 2$ per hour, and another peson 10$ per hour
they can work in the same place without knowing the lack of equality
i had such case when i worked in HP Corporation, the only reason the other guy earned more
is due to the fact that he worked there for more then a year...
we had the same skills by the way...
eventualy i saw how compatative HP corporation is and how it simulates it workers to fight
others, it went to such low lvls as when i asked for help, people ignored me so that i wont threaten thair place
after 2 months i left, and the guy that earned more then me, he was in fact my freand, and he also left with me.

The corporation also used a cheap trick to littrly INSLAVE people, they would of asked you so sighn
some papers so that you wont be able to leave the job for 12 months, in case you leave you have to pay them
about 1200$ (1 month income), while many sighned, only after that i noticed the conditions of work
when they dont have to worry about workers leaving, they can do as they like.
Lucky i had a close freand who is a doctor, and he wrote a letter that i can leave the job due to health problems.
this is just one excample, i can give tons!

. . . and throw away the green card. We don't require people to have cards here .

What would happen if somebody in the Soviet Union didn't have a card anyways? Nothing would happen to such a person in the USA, as we don't require cards.

Or it'll take him one day to find a place to sleep and a few weeks to get an apartment. He can find a job on day one - not a dream job, but McDonald's is always hiring .

Basically, he can do the same in the USA if he wanted to.

IF he's not lazy like he was in New York!!!!

You have basically described two people: One lazy, the other not. You have not described one person.

So it's a bad, horrible thing that some people have fancy cars and TVs? This is evil somehow?

We can walk on our streets and talk politics without fear. We can overthrow our president if 2/3 of us agree. We can present laws to our officials to consider. We can move anywhere in the country with no documentation. We can be religious and worship how we please. We can buy and sell goods easily. We can start businesses with ease.

Well - our government controls much of our education. Not much of an example of capitalism.

Housing crises? Caused by partially government owned entities with a virtual oligopoly. Not exactly a prime example of capitalism either.

. . . and nobody is forced to live in a tent. There's nothing preventing them from travelling to their friends or family to stay with them, or from renting a hotel or apartment. There's probably less things in the USA preventing a person from doing so in the USA than in a communist nation.

What I'm seeing is cherry picking of things that really have less to do with capitalism and more to do with the fact that sometimes bad stuff happens. You can't tell me that nothing bad has ever happened in communism. That's simply not true.

USA? UCLA entrance fees & expenses (for years afterward) add up to how much for the students or their parents?

That's what i call borrowing knowledge to apply for jobs and spend interests (going into the banking "system") when you eventually refund the HUGELY factored investment in yourself.

Who gains from this exploitation of adults, not yet working? To use the previous terminology - wrong accounts.

Want better teachers, pay them.

You cant apply GDP rating to socialist states
same as many other economy based ratings as they just cannot fit right with the socialist sistem.
just for the point to explain why, person who earn 40$ a month in cuba can afford to refuel his car
to buy food and he got enough left for other things as well, sure im not talking about imported stuff
mainly local, USSR had its own car production, therefore the cars price was to fit the income.
cuba is a bad excample anyways as the country is industrialy dead (like brain dead)
while USSR had a huge industry of everything, from cars to aircrafts to space rockets.
it had its own TVs and Radios and Computers, its own ship building industry, reserch and development industry...

Now.. dont forget that it wasnt ideal, it was on the right way to the ideal socialism for a while
but then lots of things went wrong, i blame the west in the USSR fall.

Anyways i recommend you to check 3 things:
1. old USSR movies, they show how people lived during the USSR, some of them were more like propoganda
yet others are a good excample.
2. go to youtube and search for "capitalism vs socialism" you will be amazed on the things you will find
and im not talking about the activism anarchistiv private videos...
3. google for capitalism vs socialism, and then google for future goverment styles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTyJii4wRWY - part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeUBrZ_ICg4 - part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjK_UoumTOE - part 3

People who argue for socialism are either whiners that just want to feel all warm and fuzzy inside or are using it as a means to rally the whiners into putting him/them in power(that isn't a good thing necessarily).

 People who argue for capitalism argue to keep what they earn rather then whats "Socially suitable and 'morally'(*cough* bullshit *cough*) right."

Now if you don't want to work to earn money then maybe you should go to China which is a communist country and anyone who argues otherwise is arguing such minute details that it makes one cry from the sheer obsurdity(edit oh I forgot theyr going capitalist since communism failed).

Thank you all I will make no further read or post in this topic.