I originally made these points in a reply to this thread before realizing that it would probably be more helpful to people to start a new thread on the topic. Essentially, these are my impressions of the UB as someone who plays him almost exclusively, and could serve as a guide for fellow Beast players, but more importantly should address why some people feel the Beast is "overpowered", and help them win against him, as well as investigating the balance issues from a standpoint that looks at the Beast's intended role in the game.
The main reasons people have problems playing against UB is that they tend to overestimate how dangerous he is in the early game, and often underestimate how dangerous he is in the midgame. Since you can't see the enemy UB's mana, if he spits on you twice at the start of the game you're only noticing that that's taken a toll on your HP, but what you can't see is that he's going to be out of mana after that pretty much 100% of the time, maybe he could get a third one in if he has a mana pot or helm, but after that he's a glass cannon with no more projectiles. There's no doubt that Spit is good early game, but the important thing to remember is that the Beast player wants you to run away once he's used it--that means you'll take 100% of the damage while he chills and cools down. The last thing a UB player wants is for you to charge in and take him on as soon as you get hit--that means he's probably going to have to "waste" damage by using his second Spit before the first one's duration is up. As far as I can tell, the UB's role is basically intended to be guerilla warfare, hit-and-run, scare tactics, and players tend to play into that by retreating just when it's to the Beast's advantage for them to do so. That is to say, in early game players tend to run as soon as Spit hits them, which is excellent for the mana-starved Beast. In mid games, players tend to try and run when they're at maybe 30% hp, which means the Beast can just Grasp you and then pull off a second Spit, which is gonna take down your HP faster than you usually expect, and almost always nets me a kill.
The thing to remember about fighting a Beast 1v1 is that he does good burst damage and good "finishing off" damage, but isn't a durable, sustainable fighter (like Oak or Rook). As a Beast I know that (before I've saved up for a Heart) my enemy could probably outlast me if he fully committed to the fight, but the thing that works out in the Beast's favor is that against most DG's, you can just run away as soon as the battle "turns against you". The thing about fighting a Beast is that the battle only really turns against you once you try to run. If a beast has used Spit and Grasp, he usually won't even have enough mana for another spell, one more at the most, meaning that many DGs could still end the battle in their favor if they didn't try to run. Battles tend to work out well for Beasts because the enemy decides to run when they feel they're getting too torn up by the Beast, but ironically that's usually just the point when sticking to their guns might have won them the duel, or at least made the Beast retreat and gained them the territory. I think the fact that you can't see the enemy DG's mana really works in the Beast's favor more than the other DGs, because his "burst damage" style of play can easily scare off enemies who're only able to compare his high HP to their own rapidly diminishing HP, without realizing they probably have 75% MP left and he's running on empty.
Personally, the balance changes that I'd be interested in seeing would be to reinforce the Beast's role as a hit-and-run fighter rather than a "tear your face off and never die due to lifesteal" melee fighter, which will probably be addressed at the same time as they resolve the "items are better than spells lategame" issue. The only thing I find... odd... about the Beast is that according to the thread where they detailed all the Demigod stats, UB has the highest Armor, which doesn't really fit the "glass cannon"(ish) role his Spit and Ooze give him. Personally, I view going into battle as UB as somewhat of a gamble (especially since I use Ooze fairly often) but the Beast gets a big advantage if the opponent doesn't realize how fast his resouces are being exhausted.
Essentially, what I can glean of the developer's intentions is that the UB should fill about the same role for Demigod as the Pyro does for TF2: high burst damage coupled with damage over time, but lower durability than the "heavier" classes (Oak, Rook, Heavy etc.) and less range and lower spot damage than the caster classes (Torchbearer, Regulus, Demoman, Sniper).
The way I see it, a fun Beast battle is one that's basically a "Race to 0 hp!" with the enemy taking damage from all the Beast's various wicked sources, but the Beast burning himself down with Ooze and getting hurt pretty rapidly as well. That type of fight is always exciting and feels like it could really go either way, which is why it's sad that it basically stops happening as soon as the Beast picks up an Ashkandor and hits Bestial Rage. In my opinion, the main problem is that with items being so much better than spells in the late game, the UB (in addition to being a great harasser and territory-holder) is also one of the best lategame damage dealers, as anyone who's fought a UB using Bestial Wrath and a bunch of artifacts can attest. Moreover, lategame lifesteal makes the Beast extremely survivable, when it seems like he's intended to be a bit more fragile than that.
It's good to see that so many people have feedback and help each other out with different builds and opinions, can't wait for the next few weeks once Stardock have sorted out the connection issues and are able to start ironing out the balance. Obviously, the point that I've made here reflect my own personal UB build, and don't cover the many other creative ones that people come up with. So let's give the devs a lot of good discussion to go mining through for ideas once they get around to it: what are your thoughts on the Beast's role in the game, both as it is now (in your build or your opponent's) and as it "should" to contribute to a balanced game?
I pretty much have to agree with your points. I've only played UB a few days to analyze his tactics, but I can tell you from experience that 2 Spits + 1 Grasp = no mana, even late game. In fact I've lost more 'duels' to people who reclisly charge in then those who try to range themselves due to this fact (excluding Regulus on occassion). I really have problems with rooks/oaks who stack defense with +HP/Regen. They can usually outlast me to the point where I'm hoping to make it to a tower for some quick D.
However, I don't really have any super builds. I've only done the spit combo so far, so I'm going to try and play some more diverse spec's over the next few days.
--Xetoris
I would agree. If you're going skill based, you need to end the game as soon as you can. If you drag it out too long, other DGs will stack armor/regen/whatever and it becomes very difficult to make skill damage stick. A good skill build outlevels the competition and then ends the game before things get out of hand.
Very very true, but I still think he's deadly early game. Those spits DO take a toll on your HP. When I have tried to chase one, the UB is usually close enough to his towers that I really can't stand toe to toe and chase him anyways. Playing as the Rook at least. 99% of the UBs I player just spit and kite early game. Now I haven't gone up against the UB with EVERY Demigod, so I can say for sure anything is broken or overpowered. Howerver, for a Demigod that has "Lack of Ranged" listed in his weakness, I find it odd that his ranged ability is a staple of the top UB build right now. I really think Spit could use a range nerf if nothing at all.
I'd like to hear more input on how to beat this strategy besides, "don't run you'll probably win" and "win before artifacts"
Sounds like a good analysis but if you charge a UB thinking that he must be out of mana, you are in big trouble if he has bought a mana potion and can spit you twice more.
Helps to drain the mana too. Force him to get +mana items and less +HP/Armor items.
As an UB player, I can tell you that mana is rarely a problem when favors are allowed. (Although I prefer games with no favor items allowed, and that's how I've been playing for days now.) With Blade of Serpent, you can either spit, then activate it and combined with other melee damage, have more mana than before spit (unless you had full mana, of course); not to mention Post Mortem AND plague - it's endless mana pool for UB.
Without favor items, I still find myself way too often on the better side of mana pool than on the poorer. Depending on your gameplay and items required, having two mana helms might be a huge disadvantage for not being able to take some armor/hp/speed items, but if you want to play a harrasing role - it doesn't matter that much. If you are playing a killer, you are not that much dependant on mana to need two helms late-game, when you need slots.
Those are just my observations regarding UB mana pool, because I played about 50 games with it. (My rough estimate.) And when played wisely, mana was never a problem.
Play some more then. This is simply not true.
Now, how to counter it is another question.
Well, the easiest answer is to take Erebus. He is UB's bane, if played properly. So is Regulus. Of course, so is every other DG played in a proper way, but those two have obvious advantages against UB.
Symbol of Purity is another obvious choice, but requires you to charge UB after initial spit (then use Symbol) to take the advantage of it, since it has much longer cooldown than the spit. It's a great item for countering Beast if you can handle him in direct 1 on 1 duel.
Using mana drain items, combined with Shield (a good Oak will always judge correctly and cast shield early-mid game before the initial spit) will surely make the Beast go away, if not kill it. The lane is yours then, which is another point.
It's hard to kill the Beast. But it's not so hard to make it go away.
Which is still your win.
Good luck all.
I'm gonna have to agree with just about everything you said. I play UB as my main as well, and by the time I run out of mana, they are already nearly dead or atleast running. And yes, running is probably one of the worst things they can do. I usually pick up boots when game starts, some armor after a kill or 2, gloves later, then a helm. By then, I'm spitting on everyone I see and most of the map is plagued. Get HoL and I'm set for basically the rest of the match (in my experiences atleast)
You make some excellent points here. I especially agree that UB has quite the advantage against Rook early game because of his Spit and speed, honestly one reason I like playing UB so much is because of his "Anti-Rook" capabilities. And yet, obviously, this makes life pretty lousy for the Rook player, so it should be addressed somehow. Personally I agree that there should probably be some sort of change to Venom Spit, as you're correct that it currently gives a strong ranged capability to a character who isn't "supposed" to have one. Out of all the balance suggestions I've seen for the skill, I'd probably say that a reduced range would be the most fair, as higher mana would be really unkind (or easily worked around, depending) and less damage would make the skill pale in comparison to spot-damage spells of other DGs. However, a small but nontrivial decrease in range would probably make the UB a lot more balanced in comparison to other DGs.
Personally I find it pretty amusing that the Beast is a pretty good anti-Regulus DG, given that Reggie ought to do well against a character who is (mostly) intended to be most dangerous at close range. The problem, obviously, is that Reg wants to run off and kite, and so to does UB, but when they meet the beast just has to get a Spit off and run, and Reg is left taking the damage without being able to return any. The thing is, the range on Spit is pretty decent to allow the enemy to get some shots in if they see you coming, but all too often I can just sneak up on (even!) Regulus, spit-and-run, and take no damage in return. If we're going with the earlier idea that fighting the UB should be a "race to 0 hp", which currently is often the case in melee combat, it would be in line with the Beast's role to have a shorter-ranged Spit as that would leave him vulnerable to ranged harassment or melee retaliation in exchange for his attack, rather than it just being "free damage".
Woah. I guess I read that tooltip wrong, I thought it was just manadrain for your melee damage, but it's for *all damage* that you deal while the effect is on!? That's totally amazing... especially given how cheap the item is. If that's really the case, I can't see myself ever taking another favor item, as the main weakness of the UB is lack of mana, and being able to counter that so easily would be a decisive advantage. I'm surprised more people don't use that item, if it's really that good. Have to try it out in a few games! Might be enough to actually make me start taking Plague again, which I haven't for a while.
Also, does anybody have any opinions on the fact that UB has the game's highest innate Armor value? That just seems like a really confusing decision. After all, Oak is made of armor, and Rook is made of stone. I'm not saying that the Beast should be knocked down with a feather, but it's rather odd that the guy with his organs hangin' out is the one who's most resistant to damage. Maybe someone can find a link to the table showing the data.
Personally, I think once the balance changes start going through a Beast with a little less range on his Spit and a little less Armor would be just about perfect to fill his intended role, with other DGs being brought up to that level of awesomeness. Your thoughts?
I play 1v1 vs my mate every night. He plays rook. I play UB. I beat him the first 4 games, and that's it. He now kicks me every time. Venom spit doesn't hold up against a tower farming rook - he just hides, farms xp and gold from the spawns then buys artifacts. Dead. No contest. With teleports he gets around the maps and outcaps you, and outlasts you, and kills you.
Trying ooze now.
I totally disagree with calling UB squishy. He beats almost all demigods in 1v1 combat with a pure Ooze build; relying on spit means you need mana items, so you have much less health than you could, plus you don't have the nice AoE damage and attack speed reduction of Ooze.
Hear, hear. The people posting here clearly don't understand Ooze builds. There is no way you can call an UB with 7k HP "squishy", especially if he's equipped with a Sigil of Vitality and can go up to 10+k HP when needed. The only times you die with such a build are when you clearly overextend yourself. Ooze also doesn't "burn you down" at all as soon as you get your HP regen high enough, which in my estimate is usually about when you get Narmoth's Ring.
I find it extremely rare to have a '1v1' combat online. It almost never happens. Ooze is awesome for these situations but good players don't generally fight 1v1 in a team game. Most of the time it's all about dealing a little ranged damage and staying out of range unless you have help from a teammate.
The only mana item you need to use Spit is the Plenor Battlecrown. Once you have that you're all set for the game. And you can get AoE damage from Post Mortem and Plague.
Err.... so? Ooze is better for 2v2's than spit is because of the huge debuff it has. Spit is awesome for 1v1's. Ooze is great for 1v1's, 2v2's, 3v3's 4v4's, and basically any situation thanks to its huge debuff.
Also, plague as an AoE? Seriously? Taking 30 seconds to not kill a basic melee creep seems useless to me. Ooze will kill him in 3.
Ooze UB has: a huge debuff that helps when you and your ally are fighting together (it's the power of two demigods AA's versus the power of 1.2 demigods autoattacks), hits both enemies, and requires no mana items, so he can tank very easily. Spit UB.... can harrass one demigod, requires at least one mana item and probably two if you want to spam grasp as well (which puts you behind me in HP, which means Ooze will win the fight), and with the way I build him, he's got the speed debuff and a stun, which is great for helping with your team. Spit UB.... well, a lot of different builds do a lot of different things, but they all take spit so they are all underwhelming compared to Ooze.
Also, a plenor battlecrown? What? That's two spits, one spit and a bit more than a half at max level. Without any other mana items, you won't have enough regeneration to use spit as often as you like; with a spit build, you either need a mana favor item or vlemish + plenor to have enough mana to always spit.
Whether it's 1 on 1, 2 on 2, or any other combo, Ooze is good when you actually get into a protracted melee fight with your opponent. That's not very common though. It usually happens against Sedna, Erebus, Oak, or another Unclean Beast. And it only happens when your opponent has the odds stacked in his favor or vice versa. In many cases Ooze doesnt really help all that much because either you or your opponent just gets ganked within a few seconds.
It's just rare that decent players sit there and scrap it out. If the opposing team is mostly made up of Rook, Torchbearer, Regulus, or Queen of Thorns you are not well advised to slot Ooze. It's not going to help you that much because those players are not going to sit around trading punched with you unless they are idiots. Against an Oak and Sedna team, Ooze might actually pay off. It depends on the situation, but Ooze is less commonly useful than Spit is overall.
Its interesting that you don't seem to understand how the Plenor Battlecrown works either. I play UB very well and I rarely need anything more than that item. Spit isn't the only attack you have. It's just a useful harrassment tool. Most damage is done with melee autoattacks and Spit is just to finish off a fleeing enemy or to wear someone down at the start of combat. Anyone who tries to 'always Spit' as you suggested still has a lot to learn about how to play Unclean Beast.
So you say UB is not overpowered, people are only too afraid of rushing him?
UB is fastest DG ingame so he can flee when ever he wants too. What do you want to do if he is healthstacking and get him a wand of speed.....?
nothing more to say. (that doesn't mean that think he is overpowered that much)
Gotta disagree there too.
Ooze is far more efficient especially late game than Spit.
UB is not a glass cannon in Ooze build, he is a highly potent, if not the best melee fighter in the game.
Thats why you don't trade punches with them, and use techniques like teleporting into them or behind them (actually even using the map like walking around to block off their escape!!!). They won't be able to push you out of lanes, they will harass you, but they won't be able to simply breeze in and put a lot of pressure on you.
Tower Rook is about the only DG out of those you listed who an Ooze UB is going to have real trouble against. I haven't met a TB, Reg or QoT, where I have had to worry about them too much in Ooze build. Oak is far more scary as his spirits can do real damage, even with the AOE damage from Ooze.
Ok, let's see.... UB, with no speed items, has 6.93 speed naturally (with skills) and his opponents have 90% speed. Nobody can actually stay out of melee range unless they are retreating out of the lane and behind towers, which means that I won anyway (and at later stages of the game, towers are not very good deterrants to somebody with over 10k HP with a sigil of vitality). A person would have to be stacking speed to get out of a melee fight without me being able to continually hit them (or have Jouneyman's Treads, or buy a Wand of Speed before I get one). It's just absurd to assume that you can't keep somebody in melee range as UB, especially since you play him.
Rook: With towers, he's annoying. Then again, with towers, nobody except maybe Regulus can actually do much to him early game, but he's stuck in one spot and tower's scale horribly, so it's not really fair to say that UB can't beat him, because nobody else can. Without towers, Rook is free EXP (until lategame when he can reliably boulder roll + hammer smash and his poisoned arrows can actually keep UB away). And seriously, you think a Rook can get away from UB? With a Swift Anklet, he's still .09 slower than UB naturally, without any buffs. With UB's buffs and speed debuffs, he needs boots of speed and a Wand of Speed active just to escape an UB without any speed items. Pretty unlikely.
TB: Squishy, reliant on spike damage that doesn't do well against UB with HP stacking, not particularly fast in either form (Ice has some good ways to keep UB away, and a well played Ice + fireball TB will be able to spike UB down pretty well [two full comboes, though staying for both is unlikely], but fire really has no chance of keeping UB away.) And once again, if they flee, so what? I've pushed them out of the lane, I win.
Regulus: If he goes mines, he might get away. If not... he's not getting away without burning a favor item and item slots on speed items.
QoT: Besides bramble shield, she doesn't have much to get away from UB with. And Bramble shield works better as a counter against Spit anyway, since it still absorbs the damage and she has a better mana pool for shield than UB does for spit. Against Ooze, she will get pushed out (lategame; early game, an 800 damage spit is more useful, and really early game, nobody can do anything to shield spam besides hope she runs out of mana.)
None of the Demigods you listed as tough Ooze matchups are tough, at all, for UB to hit.
And also, Oak is by far the person I hate to see the most as an Ooze UB, because his spirits, even if they aren't particularly damaging (and built well, they can be REALLY damaging), have a ton of HP and are just plain annoying. Oak, when played badly or as an assassin, is cake for UB though, and Sedna is pretty much cake for an HP stacking UB, especially once you start grasping her heals.
Really, you should have mentioned Erebus; he's probably the only person where spit has an advantage, because if he plays without mist (which I tend to do; full bite, batswarm, and mass charm assassin build for me, though I might start switching out my second point in poisoned blood for a point in Mist just for the nice benefits) then he can get away from UB (practically the only person who can, since he has the same natural speed and a big speed debuff and an escape skill), but Spit will continue to affect him unless he mists, which lets you run up and probably spit again (if he mists then swarms away quickly, you might not get one off though.)
Also, about Plenor Battlecrown: If you are going with a spit UB build, and are not spitting for damage, you will lose to Ooze 100% of the time. You need Spit to do damage; without it, your melee attacks are not going to do more than my melee + one slot more of health stacking + Ooze + attack debuff. If you are only spitting "for harrassment" it means you aren't going to be able to sustain yourself in combat... which is a flaw of your build. Only having Plenor lets you spit about 4 times before potting or going to the crystal at level 10. That is horrible. Flat out horrible. Even for harrassment, at that level it takes two spits just to start really hurting somebodies HP, so you will maybe push two people out and have to go back yourself to restore your mana, not to mention anybody fighting you in 1v1 combat will easily be able to push you out. If you rely on AA damage as a Spit UB... then you are playing him wrong, and have no reason at all to say that Ooze UB, who is better at keeping people within AA range (lots of spit builds skip diseased claw for some reason), does more damage in AA range, and takes less damage in AA range, is a bad idea.
Wow, I just really really hope people follow OP's advice and come charging at me. That would be real nice, spitting on them then turning on Ooze.
My Spit/hybrid beat has never lost to an Ooze beast. I just beat one 2 days ago. I outlevelled him easily and every combat was a piece of cake. He couldnt take me on at 100% health at any time. When we went to melee it was at my discretion and I never lost.
There's more than one way to build every character in this game. If you really think the game is as clear cut as 'Ooze beats Spit builds FTW!' you're doing yourself a disservice.
Ooze is useless again Regulus and any other ranged harrassment. It's worse than that, because you wasted points on a power that does you no good. You're better off taking points in Enhanced Attributes. You're a lot less vulnerable to ranged attacks that way and you have deal more melee damage and have more mana to use for your powers.
I'm not particularly worried about killing any other Demigod in my matches. I'm trying to win the game. If I drive off the opponent and hold my lane, thereby getting more creeps to farm for more gold and XP, that's awesome. If I get a kill that's even better. But that doesnt exactly win me the game.
Thank god someone else pointed this out. I very rarely find a beast under 7k HP towards the end of the game.
Does anyone have any advice for what to do if you have a partner feeding a UB? It seems like once UB gets into the level 10+ territory with good gear it is very difficult to stop him in any meaningful way.
I tend to play as Sedna, and even stacking HP gear myself usually is not an effective solution, since the crits inevitably spike so high with UBs very fast attacks.
Best strategy? Avoid UB, save up money and possibly even sell equipment, and push giants ASAP. Like, as soon as you hit war rank 10, if you have an Ooze UB giving you problems, sell to get to giants immediately. Once an Ooze UB starts winning, he won't stop winning for anything other than artifact geared demigods, and you aren't going to get artifacts with an UB around (vicious cycle, I know.) So just sell all your equipment [once you can afford giants; no sense selling it if you can only buy up to catas with your pooled money], try to harrass and distract them from the giants, and hope you can break the Citadel.
This won't work if they have TB, though.
Congratulations, you have anecdotal evidence for Spit being better. Since you haven't played Ooze UB, stop talking out of your ass. I've played as Spit UB, Ooze UB, and hybrid UB. I'm not saying Spit is bad. I'm just saying that you are wrong when you state that UB is squishy, that spit handily beats Ooze, and that Ooze is bad in general.
Also, how do you figure you get to control when you fight and when you don't? UB is fast. If you spit on UB and he is already running at you, he will get into range to hit you. He will fight you. Ooze will beat you, at least in the late-game. Early game, Spit UB has a slight advantage.
Ranged harrassment like Regulus? Dude, play the game a bit more. UB will never be harrassed by a regulus. He might... but regulus is so squishy he can be killed in the early game even if he retreats into his towers. Even furthermore, he does almost no damage to me; when you have over 5k HP by level 5 (with the health flag) there is really no reason to be concerned with a few autoattacks; just activate wand of speed, charge in, and kill/push out of the lane. It's not hard; if somebody is in range for a ranged attack, I am in range to charge in with Wand of Speed and force them to battle it out, because with a 10% slow from the first hit, they are stuck in combat.
You aren't worried about killing other demigods. Ok, fine. I don't go out of my way looking for ganks either. But honestly, that doesn't change the fact your build gets four spits, total, and you have to go back to the health crystal or use potions. You can't even harrass towers, immobile objects with horrible healing, with four spits. You could never harrass an actual demigod with that, and as soon as you run out of mana you are useless.
Also, you still haven't addressed how hypocritical you have been; you rely on melee damage for your build, yet say that Ooze, which does more melee damage and has more health and takes less damage, is worse. Honestly, I can understand trying to make your build sound better... but you really need to figure out when to stop exaggerating and look at things objectively.
Spit > Ooze early game.
Spit > Ooze against towers.
Ooze > Spit late game.
Ooze > Spit against minions, creeps, and in 2v2s.
Depending on the build, Ooze is faster than Spit (sometimes spit builds forgo having Diseased Claw or Inner Beast in order to get Post Mortem, horrible skill that it is.)
However you have been saying "UB is Squishy, spit is better, I can have just as much HP as an Ooze UB and it doesn't matter that I have almost no mana regeneration and can only use spit a few times and rely on AA damage, which Ooze does better, Spit is still so much better because I said so!" Just accept the fact that Ooze is better than Spit in a lot of situations, and that Spit is better than Ooze in a lot of situations.
As a spit UB user I agree with most of your points, as I have recently been toying around with an ooze build and found it to be more to my liking, but I have to disagree with this.
Post Mortem isn't a terrible skill. Often times it will kill creeps faster until you max out ooze. Ooze's advantage is that it's avalible earlier and you can be attacking a different target and creeps at the same time. Overall ooze is better for creeping, but that doesn't make post mortem bad.
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