Okay, I now feel confident in publicly saying that I think that the connectivity issues some have had is going to go away next week.
Here's what we've built:
1. If you open ports 6112 to 6200 and port forward them to your IP on your router (this is for people who are familiar with this stuff) you'll get what is called direct connect.
2. If you don't do this, we will try to do a quick NAT connect. This takes longer but works for most people.
3. If NAT fails, you will be connected to our Proxy server system. This is not going to be super desireable at first because the physical location of the Proxy server is going to make the difference between a good and a lagfest. When the proxy server is nearby (east coast US player for instance to the east cost proxy server) it's perfectly good. But, for instance, if you're in Japan and it uses a proxy server in Singapore, you're adding 200ms to your latency which can make the game a total lag nightmare. so this is clearly your last result.
...
Now, right now, the current version of Demigod uses a connectivity server that ONLY does option 2. That's because it was decided early on that users shouldn't have to open ports. This, IMO, should NEVER have been the first option because when you force even technically sophisticated users into this system, you end up having a LOT of unnecessary connections to these NAT servers.
So, I feel confident that this next week is going to be the turning point for those people who have had connectivity difficulties PLUS the whole range of stat stuff, pantheon stuff, etc. will all come into line as well because, as I've said elsewhere, because the connectivity thing was our #1 priority, everyone, including the people who would resolve favor items and favor points and accurate win/loss stuff have been pulled onto this.
Heck, this past week, I had the ART team from Elemental working on doing benchmarks for speeing up NAT (That's where we finally concluded that NAT, for P2P is just feasible when there's thousands of players, it would simply require so many NAT servers, located around the world, to make it not totally awful that it wasn't financially logical - we'd be better off just hosting all the traffic which is better anyway).
..
We absolutely do not want to do any more "betas". The betas don't really solve our problems. We're getting rave emails from people in support today saying how this beta "totally fixes connectivity". NO, it doesn't. The only reason it seems that way is because there's so fewer people using the beta servers. If you check impulsereactor.dll, it's still the same one from day 0. So the betas don't really help because it gives us the same false sense of success that the actual open beta had.
The other problem with the beta is that it splits the multiplayer community which is really a problem. Right now, the Demigod MP community is fragmented. You've got a ton of people on Game Ranger. a Bunch of people on Himachi, others on Demigod release and some on the beta. And you get some very poor results hwen you play Skirmish or Pantheon or just find games.
Now one of the things that I've always been painfully aware of in online games is that you need a critical mass of users to make it work. With Demigod, we have some plans on how to make sure there's always lots of people to play with once the MP is bullet proof both in terms of connectivity and stat tracking. As someone who has been ejected from a pantheon game during connection, I know we have to do some QUICK changes to some of this stuff in order for the MP experience to have any integrity.
First, one of the things we did is we have everyone's email address who has updated the game. When we start the next-gen pantheon with favor points, achievements, favor items, stat tracking, disconnects dealt with and of course bullet proof MP (all of which I expect to be done this week) we will email everyone letting them know where we are at.
Second, the Stardock marketing push will actually begin. After that day 0 debacle with the MP connectivity being so crummy, I made marketing halt all Demigod marketing efforts. Those will go into high gear probably in the third week of May.
Third, and this is where we need your help: The demo. We will be working with GPG on the demo but I was thinking of proposing that the demo for Demigod be multiplayer ONLY. Moreover, I would like the demo players to be able to play online with legitimate players. Here's where we need your help: What do you think would be a good way to limit this demo then in order to get people to still buy the game?
Fourth, we plan to start formal Demigod tournmants with cash and prizes for the winners.
Fifth, Stardock is working on an update to Impulse Reactor that will allow people to have more control over the types of people people are matched up with. Think of it being like eHarmony but for gaming. You'll be able to describe the type of gamer you are and the match making system will pick out people for you. This feature is actually being developed for Elemental but because Demigod uses Impulse Reactor, it'll get that for free.
Sixth, Stardock moderators will soon be introduced into the online community. This will probably happen in mid-May. The idea is, if we have forum moderators, why not multiplayer ones? Their job will be to provide enjoyable multiplayer experiences (i.e. good sports, skilled player, etc.) PLUS they will be able to add or subtract in-game karma from players. People who are just nasty or horrible to other players will lose karma points. People who are good sports and good citizens will get points. Those with higher karma will tend to get matched up. Yes, we know this is controversal. Players will see the karma as part of their account and there will be a way for users who feel they were unfairly negated to appeal.
Seventh, all people who have bought Demigod at retail or direct up May 10th (and didn't return the game obviously) will be getting a coupon that will let them purchase a second copy of Demigod for 50% off for a limited time as a way for us to show appreciation for this community that has put their faith and trust in us.
Thanks everyone!
Awesome, I can't wait!!! Been in since the beta and am really excited for m atchmaking to be solid and get back to 4v4 and the occasional 5v5 seen in the beta.
This is awesome. Please allow us to "gift" the coupons to friends!!! This will really increase the players online and let people see how great the community is.
Really excited for this. 4v4 games are awesome, but would prefer to stop getting matched with people who swear at me for not using their strategy/build on my demigod.
As stated above the coupon has 3 purposes:
1) Make stardock more money on Demigod.
2) Get more people online playing and having fun with us.
3) Get our friends online to improve the community and longevity of the game.
Slurple I love you so much. See above. Also, I am pretty sure brad doesn't want you in the Elemental Beta considering the 20+ times you were banned from IRC during the demigod beta.
Do you read what you right? You like to Trash talk people, but you hate when people trash talk you because it hurts your feelings. I really don't mean this to be rude, but this is really one of those developmental milestones most people hit around 4. Basically you need to empathize with others. If you hate people trash talking you and everyone hates trash talkers, why do you trash talk?
This is a real question. I am actually serious and would love to know your reasoning. There are droves of people who don't appreciate this and it makes the community less friendly to new comers. This basically limits people from enjoying the game and increasing the number. Fewer numbers mean less DLC available to you and I. So what is the appeal you get from humiliating people that are trying their best?
I am sorry I just don't understand it. Not meant to be personally rude, so please don't make this a flame thing.
No, of course not. Hopefully they will add a surrender option shortly, as well.
Isn't there already a profanity filter?
No, there definitely is not. Thus the reason for karma. We have two choices:
1) Suppress peoples ability to say "naughty" words, which we know people will find a way to get around and the filter will prevent some normal things. MI remember MLB old filter prevented some very common terms of baseball from bering used. This is problematic.
2) Allow someone the ability to look at intent and increase or decrease karma based on whether people add or detract from the community, respectively. Personally, I prefer this. Tis does not limit personal freedom, but reward and discourages positive and counter-productive activities. In other words it leads to a more open, accepting community.
Thanks, but I don't plan on buying a second copy of DG. Could I have a 50% coupon for any other Impulse game instead ?
[qoute]I would like the demo players to be able to play online with legitimate players. [/qoute]
If you have that, you must have every demigod - if you do not, than players may start hiping on the single demigod, refusing to play with them as they're often "newbies" and so on. That's just one of the many problems.
I'd say 1 of 3 arenas - 2v2, 1v1, and 4v4. This gives players a good range of maps, not limiting them to a "Nub map", and shows them how the game plays with large number of players.
As for restrictions - no favor items, or dimenish the benifets/choice.
Hero is randomly chosen - this one is a big dick move, but would help push demo-ers to buy the game to play with their favoriate demigod. This has a secondary benifet of reducing the use of the best demigod.
Only 1 patheon game a day. A bit harsh, yes. But it introduces the player into the patheon, while at the same time not causing a great deal of harm to it.
Lower-resolution textures. Than again, this one could backfire.
And the biggest dick move of all : X number of games played per week. A player trying the game out for a few days would't be effected by this, but this would seriously hinder those who don't want to buy the game. Probably 25-30 games, excluding those if they left under 10 minutes.
As for nerfs ingame for demo players - NO. They shouldn't have reduced gold. They shouldn't have a lower max level. They shoudnl't be resticted from buying the best items. This hurts the entire team, which often includes people who bought the game.
The idea of allowing demo players to play with real folk is pretty good.
As far as ideas for limiting the demo, here's a couple I'm sure you have thought of:
1. Pick two demigods and only allow them to play those two. I say two, just because that will let them get a feel for how different it can be to play each one.
2. Time limited to 3 days from initial download. Make this plain before they start the download so that they can plan accordingly.
MP Demo Ideas
1. Demo players only connect to each other.
2. All demigods available, but selected randomly for you when joining a match
3. Limited to skirmish only
4. Limited to 1-2 maps
5. 2v2 and 3v3 only, with AI players available
6. Have limited selection of items available in shops.
Wow. This is great! Faith in Stardock restored. At least for a couple weeks to see how non-connectivity issues fare. If they are fixed with the same fervor as these issues then I will be amazingly impressed.
NOW: for the Demo, you want Demo players to be able to play competetively so that they can have a good time and not ruin the time for everyone else. So here's what i say:
2 maybe 3 Demigods
Custom and Skrimish Games Only (maybe limit maps in custom games)
Only a few favor items available.
Should be good.
Going to buy the game for a friend as soon as I get my coupon.
Well done.
I think limiting their access to a few Demigods is the best idea, and also Favor Items. Obviously they shouldn't be allowed into Pantheon mode. I think the options for Demigods should definitely be an assassin and a general, with as much diversity in their gameplay as possible. Like Rook and Sedna or something.
This might sound weird, but I think there should be two demos and neither of them should have online connectivity. Games like Counter-Strike survive because they're fun - yet do you see a Counter-Strike demo floating around? There's good reason for that - people could simply play that demo over and over and 'enjoy' the game. They're not missing out on story components, and denying them things like Favour items and purchasable items in game is simply going to create a lop-sided situation where a new player gets absolutely smashed. Giving them a single player only experience means they can take the game at their own pace, and probably have a much better experience with it.
I would release a "Taste Test" of the game - 2 Demigods and one map. It should be as small as possible to download to ensure as many people as possible think "Why not?" and click download. I'd also release an "Expanded Demo" which would encompass all of the Demigods and maps - still single player only of course - to give people a much better idea of what the game is all about. This would also shut down the pirates - why download an illegal version of the game to "try" when I can download the entire game for free in Single player and if I like it buy it and already have the game downloaded.
And, for your demo, might I suggest making a tutorial? You don't want people's first experience with the game to be as confusing as mine was. Even Sins had a tutorial.
I tend to agree with no online or at least a single player. I mean you shouldnt just hop straight online with this game, you'll just end up annoying other players, even new paying players because you cant learn the controls and items and such offline, and instead you just run around getting slammed online immediately. I think giving online means it needs to be restricted to incentivise buying the game, but stripping out components while versing paying customers only makes gameplay lop sided and unfair and would possibly provide a negetive experiance to potential customers. While this game may have next to no learning curve for people that have played DotA in the past, it can take a bit of getting used to for a new comer and perhaps AI is the best place to try that out without the pressure of being up against other humans trash talking you.
A demo for this game is hard. Oddly, this is something I have thought about on more than one occasion. Here is what I have come to, I don't claim them as original becuase of other people saying similar, but I did think of them on my own.
1. Multi and/or Single Player. Single player is an obvious, getting stomped online is not everyones idea of a great demo. Especially since one weak player can ruin an entire team in this game. This is not a FPS where one noob can be countered by a really awesome team mate. For them to have multi-player, they should be able to host or join demo games only. Have the description of the game locked with a note that it is a demo host. Paying customers may join these games if they wish, that way if the demo community dies, the players capable of playing with them doesn't. Have the game not have stat tracking, because that would be a huge exploit with farming of noobs for better stats. This will also make it so that only the people want to join and are willing to teach and such join. As a side note, if they want, they can already play online using GameRanger and Hamachi with the pirated version, even if it is out of date. So restricting them to single player for a demo makes no sense. Let them see what the real community has to offer.
2. Demigod Selection. For multiplayer you would have to make them all available to avoid the whole noob class thing. That and if you lock it out to 2 DGs you will have a 3v3 with 5 TBs and a QoT. I'm not a fan of QoT and TB personally, so locking me to only them would not leave as great of an impact for some of the potential customers. Let them find the demigod they want to play before they start the paid game.
3. Map selection. Give them all of it as well. As mentioned before, they can only join games of their own "kind", so why not give them full access to it all. As well, that makes it easier when they purchase the full version to convert it, because it is already done. The only change overall will be to unlock the Impulse account for the joining of any game they choose, and as outlined below, removing the time restriction. I know, easier said than done, but if you want them to enjoy the game, it really needs to be fully unlocked.
4. Length of playtime. Obviously you can't give them the full game forever, otherwise they would just keep playing that version and never pay for it. My vote is to lock it out after a week. This isn't an MMO, and you arent paying for it monthly, so paying for it before the end of your free week won't affect any money you could have saved. The week of playtime would be beneficial for people who are somewhat forgetful with downloading a demo at a certain time (me being one). If you only give them 3 days and they download on a Wednesday, their game will expire sometime Saturday. This could be avoided by downloading on the weekend, but as said before, potential customers might not remember to do that and might end up not doing it for a couple months, and miss out on the game. If you make it a week, they can install it now, leave the icon on their desktop, and when the time comes they want to play it on the weekend, they will see the icon and start it up. Allowing them a week gives them more freedom of time to play, and lets them put it on their hard drive now, when they actually see the game and say "I wanted to check that game out."
Hello,
I have a quick person. With the forwarding of ports on the router what happend if you have 2 people wanting to play over the one connections. Obviously you can't forward the ports to both of them. Can you set demigod to use different ports and then forward them to the second computer?
Thank you.
Chris
I am stunned, Stardock, stunned. I'd come to expect fantastic customer appreciation from you but this just takes it to 11. Not only am I pleased with this, I'd go so far to say that it makes me displeased with every other publisher out there because they aren't putting anywhere near this sort of effort into making sure the customer is happy, and their CEOs certainly aren't posting on the community forum at 2:30 in the morning.
Get some sleep, Stardock, you are doing a great job.
First of all: Amazing News:) The 50% off will bring lots of new players to the game - i really like the idea.
For the demo:
That and:
No rankings
Multiplayer with time limit - like you get a Demo Key that allows you to play MP with all the Retail People for a fixed amount of days (7 -14)
Maybe important to retail users: Give us an option like "retail only", so we can control who joins our games - hopefully nobody will have to use this - but a choice is always nice
Also an option to directly upgrade the Demo to full version would be nice.
Great stuff. Thanks for the update
Quick comment re demo - you absolutely must still have an SP option as well as MP. From my own experience when I play I first want to try it on SP and once I am happy with my play I then move to MP. If I don't have that SP option I seldom want to risk walking with the unwashed masses
Note most people who wanted Demi God have the game you're now trying to appeal to those who hadn't even considered it!
Tals
i do hope ure gonna fix ranking if you gonna make cash tournaments tho, cause right now it's a total mess
A DG demo should have:
- 4 Demigods available for play (no level restriction, 2 Assassins, 2 Generals for good measure)
- Favor disabled
- No Ranking
- A limit of up to 4 games in online MP
- Of course Pantheon disabled
- Game disables itself after a set amount of days (a week should be enough)
- No Singleplayer
re the demo:
2 demigods (1 good, 1 evil; 1 assassin, 1 general)
2 maps (1 small, 1 large).
Multiplayer has Skirmish and Custom, but only connects to other demo players (demo players can't see retail and vice versa - like with the beta patch this weekend but with an actual message to let them know this is the case... or let them see retail games, but grey them out with a mouseover of "not available to demo" kind of message).
Single player skirmish; for newbies learning the game, and to account for the possibility that the demo population won't be (or perhaps stay) large enough to give a good experience, so you want single player to fall back on.
Conquest only.
No Favour or Pantheon.
Other restrictions I'm not sure on, that provide a direct mid-game enticement to buy the full game:
Level cap, maybe can't progress past level 10 or 15.
Can open the artifact store, but can't buy them ("not available in Demo").
As for the rest of the post, cheers for the 50% coupon thing; not sure I can make use of it but nice gesture. Despite the multiplayer issues I've still had quite a lot of fun with the game, so it'll be great when it's finally all running smoothly - hopefully that finally will indeed be this coming week.
for demo/... online
limit to 1 or 2 DG ( 1 assassin rook, 1 general whoever)
limited favor items
and only access to custom games
and even maybe a limited amount of playtime per day
Good idea, i like it.
And thanks for the update, Frogboy.
I don't suggest demo players to play with regular players. They will get absolutely slaughtered and (rage) quit.
Maybe let them go into pantheon (skirmish with rank = more prefered) only and choose one demigod, then match them against lowest rank players possible. They will get stuck playing 1 demigod and 1 side of "their choosing" (omg, a choice?).
The temptation to try other demigods will be great. Only problem are those people who can do 1 same damn thing for 24/7 wouldn't need to buy the real copy to try other demigods.
Another is the classical "limited time" option.
[Demo]
All demigods availible
limit to lvl 10
limit items say first 2 rows on each tab of items (first 2 idols for each type)
only 2 maps availible
give them half the amount of favor points
give a way to transfer favor points if they buy game (to encourage buying the game)
i would say limit multiplayer to other demo users only max teams 2v2 and have everything there missing viewable but not selectable
Your thanks is to have me buy Demigod again? I'd prefer an Elemental voucher, frogboy.
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