It is only in late games that these issues pop up. Just has an epic 2v2 on Exile, 2 TBs vs Reg. and Oak. Game had lots of swings showing a good balance in class and damg. The issue came up around the 50min - 1hr mark.
1.) Ashkandor and Mageslayer make regulus OVERWEHLMING powerful. EDIT: (with only Ashkandor and Mageslayer, by lvl 15 Regulus deals 688 damg a second, NOT including critical hits,which hit for 1.5 -2k. Tested it out last game as Regulus. 5/3/09) At the very end, we were standing in our base next to our crystal firing at reg, freezing him, rain of ice, etc, and still he drained our heatlh (while we were next to the crystal) killing us while he remained at relatively full health. This is due to crits + life steal + attack speed. This combination make regulus unstopable when he has Ashkandor and Mageslayer. Add in some other rings and attack speed items and there you go.
I challenge anyone to win a game vs regulus with that comination (conquest).
This shows that items favor melee based attacks. You can only get 2k-4k crits off of melee attacks but NOT off of magic attacks. Meaning, the team with the better items and melee attacks will always trumph the team with the same or better items and magic attacks. There is no way a magic caster (TB), can win without items that allow him to crit with magic spells.
1.) Solution: I suggest either reducing the elements in those items or.....
1.) Better Solution: Add items that allow +crit% for magic casts.
Now the Oak is killable even with those items. He has to close into range to deal the damg, then run when he gets low on health. Regulus shoots from 6 away, making it much easier for him to escape or chase down enemies. Don't get me wrong, Oak is bloody hard to kill as well, but at least we can drain his life and kill him with teamwork. Even under the Regen crystal, both of us COULD NOT kill regulus with his item comination.
2.) Citadel upgrade -time% DG dealth penatly. You can fully upgrade it to knock off 40% of the time penalty when you DG dies. Broken, as in, we had it maxed and still had to wait 25+ seconds to respawn. Why even both sinking money into it if it doesn't work! (EDIT: Someone did the math and at lvl 20 it does work, just that the penalty is 60seconds) Still is a worthless upgrade unless you constantly die as the Oak to use his reincarnation. Should be replaced with a more useful upgrade or increase the % downtime.
2.) Solution: Fix it so it actually works. (EDIT: see above)
2.) Better Solution: Who actually puts money into that? No one wants their DG to die, b/c when it happens, the game can swing the other way. Instead of -10%, -20%, -40% (which don't work mind you), double it. Have it around -25%, -50%, and -75%. That would make it more worthwhile.
Please feel free to add any late game issues you have seen or comment on solutions. If you want to flame, I suggest to you, test these out. They are real. #2 is a broken issue while #1 is more serious. There is no way to beat that combo. Heck, I used to use it on light side. I truely believe adding +crit% items for magic users would fix that imbalance. As it stands, melee users will always win vs magic users if they both have the same items.
If he was confident enough to march right up to your crystal and take both of you on, the game was already over bc he purchased mint upgrades and farmed you for gold. I doubt this is a case of imbalance.
Every non-caster hero is imbalanced with Ashkandor and Mageslayer. UB/Regulus/Erebus/Oak (and possibly Rook)
The equivalent caster item (Stormbringer) reduces cooldowns by 15% which is pretty awesome but not nearly as good as the damage increase from these other items. Spells cap out at a max damage and reducing cooldowns should not be the only way to increase your dps at that point.
Also the citadel death penalty reduction does work. The time you have to wait increases with your level - at level 20 it's over 45 seconds (and ~45 * 60% is ~25)
Yeh, there sooo imba... >.>
You can get 3088dps after crits (with Reg), but this costs 96,300 gold, so if you actually manage to pull it off, the game was over ages ago.
Ashkandor + Mageslayer costs 26000 gold, so you fed him. Simple as that. If you didn't feed, I don't see any reason you shouldn't have BOTH had Bulwarks. A level 20TB with this basically has 10,000ehp (ehp = what matters against normal attacks).
Also, TB owns Reg midgame, so I have no idea what you guys were doing.
Magic definitely loses out in the end. And since there aren't a whole lot of demigods and all of them are supposed to be viable, so the whole early-game/late-game hero thing like dota doesn't really fly here. I agree that there needs to be items that boost magic damage, though simply adding crits probably isn't the best soluation. Where "magic" = "fixed damage abilities".
Well, if an item effected spells wouldn't it also effect snipe and then you just gave yourself the same problem?
I don't think its necessarily a bad thing to have different heroes shine at different stages of the game. The crits can get a bit out of hand. But like others have said if it gets to that point it's going to be a wrap anyways.
This happened to me and a teammate against a UB. He was our level (10, I believe). I have no idea what equipment he had, but whatever he had allowed him to stand in our base and fight us while we were standing next to our crystal, and our health was going down and his was going up, LOL.
I agree. Whether it's imbalanced or not, it just feels like getting the super items favors melee based Demigods more. There just needs to be more "Expensive Endgame super items" that help spell DPS as well. I just don't like the fact that the best thing to do endgame is to get a super +Damage +Attack speed artifact and pwn with your auto attack. First one to Ashkandor wins...meh.
The death penalty upgrade at the citadel is the most unattractive upgrade there is. It would be nice if the death penalty upgrade either got buffed or completely removed and replaced with something different. For example, by buffed I mean something like if the upgrade also reduced the amount of gold gained by enemy demigods when they kill you. So you are dead for less time and they get less gold for killing you. Still not as attractive as the other upgrades, as it is a defensive upgrade.
See, if one team had put the gold necessary for 1 Ashkandor into a full upgrade of Priests -> Giants, the game would've been over already.
Assuming you aren't being stupid and feeding the enemy in the early game, citadel upgrades > 1 demigod using the same amount of gold for artifacts.
Also, people who see no use for the death penalty upgrade have clearly never played against a Last Stand Oak in a fortress game.
I actually played this exact game tactic.. The enemy used it on us. Initially we were putting money into the citadel, but regulus was the only one saving up for this.. and about a little later than half way through the game, BAM regulus started just killing everyone over and over and over and over.. and before you know it.. gold racks up, their citadel has all upgrades and game is over. I do agree it is a bit much and it is a cheesy tactic.
Maybe a possible solution for the Ashkandor and Mageslayer combination would be to cap life steal at about 15-18% (as opposed to the 24% these two items grant if combined) of your damage. This number is of course for debate but i think capping it like some other stats would help against someone being able to actually HEAL whilest in combat with 2 or more hostile DGs.
Life leech should not combine linearly like it does now.
Orb effects in dota were to prevent this exact thing. Certain things did stack (Vlad's life leech aura and Satanic, for example) but most did not.
this is absolutely true but even already discussed
the point is always the same, regulus who spec his char in full autoattack is WEAK, very weak at start
ofc if he get to lvl 20 and artifact he will be a REAL god but it shouldnt
you should win b4 lvl 20 and if you dont against a regulus like that its mostly your mistake than a problem
oak is general and so he has no talents on autoattack and items are less powerful on him
yeah i agree
even if i dont see any reason to do it anyway, i wouldnt still invest any money into it, better buy item who prevent your death or improve other way citadel
The crit thing is a bug.
This isn't like dota though, were theres hundreds of items (probably being generous with that number) that have ALL different kinds of orbs. Theres like five effects that affect your attack, and that's it. Attack speed, Life leech, Attack damage, Critical, and slow (on like, one item). I probably missed one because I didn't even bother to look, but yeah.
Regardless, the problem with overfarmed regulus, or any overfarmed DG for that matter is solved by not sucking and allowing him to farm that high.
Well aside from specific hero skill orbs the only ones in DotA are snare on hit, chance to snare on hit (lasts longer), lifetap, armor reduction, and mana drain on hit. Crits not technically being an orb. So really the number of orbs is very similar.
However then DotA breaks things down even further. Skadi isn't an orb on ranged, vlads only effects melee. There are orbs and buff placers and it turns into a very very complicated thing to try and explain with no prior knowledge.
Bottom line is its not that far off. Now is an orb system the answer? I don't know, but its an avenue worth looking into atleast.
For all of those who posted "I have no idea what you two were doing, b/c TB owns mid-game and Regulus must have farmed you", here's my answer.
It was an hour long game. We invaded their citadel 30min into the game, WITH giants. Heck, we even had more DG kills than them, a ratio of 2:1. It was at the last second that Regulus pumped all his money into mageslayer and ashkandor (I've done the same thing in another game, and came back to win), that the tide turned. The point it, that combination is entirely unbeatable. We upgraded the cit. We got boots of speed and used extra cash for stormbringer. Believe me, it was an intersely fun game (very nice people we played against too), but once Reg. has those items, there is NO STOPPING him. Any other demigod can be stopped, with quite a bit of effort, but not Regulus. This leads me to the case of major imbalance late game.
A cap on life steal would have worked, a cap on speed attack or even a major increase on the price of Ashkandor (that might be the best) would all help. In a game, there should NEVER be a "win" button. As in, Mageslayer + Ashkandor = Win no matter what. For crying out loud, we owned the entire map and killed everything in their citadel when he came out swinging. And no, he was not farming us. Those comments are not useful and do not contribute to the fact of late game imbalance.
4k crits is ridiculous. Even multiple 2k every third shot. What especially should not occur is dying next to your crystal when its a 2v1.
I agree. One way to fix this is increase of the price of Ashkandor to a higher lvl, meaning the player would have to neglect spending their money on other items and/or citadel upgrades to reach it. Once the citadel is maxed fully endgame, it really comes down to who came take the most advantage of the artifacts and items available for purchase.
What were you doing at the base that you were killing everything in the citadel and the game didn't end within a minute?
It feels like a tortoise and the hare story here.
Listen to your argument. It basically says "I should win before a certain demigod reaches level 20 b/c then he becomes unstopable." That's the issue! Why doesn't TB, or Oak, or QoT, or Rook become unstoppable at level 20? Why is it only Regulus? It shows a flaw that I MUST win before he hits level 20, even if my DG reached level 20 three levels before him.
I find it odd that you think this only works with Regulus. I guess you've never seen Rook crit for 9k.
Really? lol. No i haven't. That would be insane. But... even with the rook, to have those items + attack speed + life steal, you would have to sacrifice speed, allowing people to range damg him to lower his health. Still incredibly hard but not impossible. The fact that it's incredibly hard is an issue though.
If by 'talents' you mean skills, uhh.....Soul Power?
Was about to post the same thing..lol
its not
oak IS unstoppalbe if specced correctly and with correct items
and oak can kill other with a invul shield too
probably a bit less strong in catching ppl since its melee but IF he catches it owns regulus
even UB is probably winning a fight 1 vs 1 with regulus since he got stun and his snare/speed is higher than regulus
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