If I wrote a post saying that Demigod sales were far below what we had hoped for and I said that the reason was due to piracy and that the answer was that we should have put some nasty copy protection on those DVDs to have prevented early piracy what do you think people would say?
I know what my answer to that would be. I would say that Stardock couldn’t blame poor sales on piracy but rather the fact that the game’s built-in multiplayer match-making was totally broken for the first day of release due to its underestimation of network resources that a mainstream game would take and even when that got addressed, the multiplayer match-making for two weeks and counting has been incredibly flakey which affected reviews and word of mouth. That’s what I would say.
And yet…
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23381\
Demigod debuts at #3 for top selling PC games at retail – bearing in mind that that was a partial week and that the majority of units sold were digital sales which weren’t counted.
But…but…what about those hundreds of thousands of pirates? Yep. Demigod is heavily pirated. And make no mistake, piracy pisses me off. If you’re playing a pirated copy right now, if you’re one of those people on Hamachi or GameRanger playing a pirated copy and have been for more than a few days, then you should either buy it or accept that you’re a thief and quit rationalizing it any other way.
The reality that most PC game publishers ignore is that there are people who buy games and people who don’t buy games. The focus of a business is to increase its sales. My job, as CEO of Stardock, is not to fight worldwide piracy no matter how much it aggravates me personally. My job is to maximize the sales of my product and service and I do that by focusing on the people who pay my salary – our customers.
As Ars Technica quoted over a year ago:
"The reason why we don't put copy protection on our games isn't because we're nice guys. We do it because the people who actually buy games don't like to mess with it. Our customers make the rules, not the pirates. Pirates don't count," Wardell argues. "When Sins popped up as the #1 best selling game at retail a couple weeks ago, a game that has no copy protect whatsoever, that should tell you that piracy is not the primary issue."
Even Demigod, a game that shipped with no copy protection on the DVD, was massively pirated, and has had, to put it mildly severe launch issues with its multiplayer match-making which has had a negative impact on its Metacritic score has still managed to debut at the top of retail sales charts (not counting our digital sales).
Why is that? At that point I can only speculate but the first reason is pretty straight forward: Demigod is an awesome game. Second, while the multiplayer matchmaking that comes with the game currently sucks, our customers know it will get fixed. Part of that is the demographic of Stardock customers. They’re more experienced, they know that some of the issues with the MP matchmaking aren’t due to rushing the game out or negligence but rather the fact that complicated systems sometimes don’t scale well and there is no substitute for time when it comes to fix them.
I think there are many lessons to be learned from Demigod. For example, if I had to do it over again, I would be inclined to require a valid user account to play LAN even if it only has to be validated one time. That way, we could also make it a lot easier for a legal user to have a LAN party with a single license. Anyone who has played Demigod on Game Ranger probably knows what and why I'm bringing that up.
When the focus of energy is put on customers rather than fighting pirates, you end up with more sales. It seems common sense to me but then again, I’m just an engineer.
I'm not sure how you extrapolated that from my statement, but if food were able to be copied like software, yeah, I'm all for it being free.
I just have to shake my head at the rationalizations for illegal copying of software. "Oh, these people are too poor to afford to buy the software". Yeah, but they've got enough income to afford a computer, the electricity to run it, and the internet connection to get the torrent? Sorry, that 'too poor' argument doesn't wash.
Alright, I'll take the other side: If I did pirate the game, who did I hurt? It didn't harm anyone any more than breathing the air that they hypothetically could need would. In fact, it did so little harm it would be nearly impossible to prove that I had done anything; no one would know or honestly care that I did. You can't "take" something that isn't gone, no matter how much people like to use an emotional word to win an argument.
SolaceAvatar,
Just because you didn't "hurt" someone doesn't mean it isn't against the law. Don't get me wrong, I'm not throwing software pirates in the same group as murderers or kidnappers, but it is still against the law. Maybe that doesn't mean anything to most people nowadays, but to me it is still a problem.
If you take something that is not yours, even if that person will never notice, it is still wrong. If it weren't why wouldn't all games just be released free for everyone?
Just because no one is hurt when I am running a red light, doesn't mean I won't get a ticket.
I understand that the whole "victimless" crime thing is not popular. But, I am afraid for a generation that feels entitled to whatever they want and they want it for free. Just because you don't know if a game is good, doesn't mean you need to pirate it to see. You can "go without", or just buy it and take a chance.
The "I deserve something for nothing" attitude is very destructive.
You denied the creator of the game profit for their product you now have. This is in direct violation of the law, namely Copyright, and is also morally wrong. Even at the bottom of the .nfo files included with most downloadable games you see the lines "If you like this game - buy it". This is the mindset of the people actually producing the pirated copy of the game.
PIRACY is a problem however when i do pirate its usually a movie ive seen at the movies already and plan on buying once its released on DVD. Game wise i have only torrented Tomb Raider because its so old you cant buy it anymore. except for an inflated price on eBay. I support steam however i didnt get HL2 until the release of the orange box i did remember an uproar over steam to start with but now its come along way. it works well doesnt get in the way, its reliable. you can run games on as many PCS as youwant but you cant play using the same account more than once online. I assume Impulse is the same so when i get a new PC i can simply install Impulse then reinstall their games without pissy DRM. STILL SPORE was heavily pirated as a rebellion against EA...afterwards they increased install limit from 2 to 5. so there Piracy can work.
ALSO sales will be better on may 14th when it is released in PAL format( EUROPE and AUS)
In the case of Demigod the pirate's hurt Stardock, or do you think Brad is ripping out what little hair he has left trying to solve network issues for the sheer fun of it? You're right, piracy is not the same as violent crime. Neither is fraud, but that does't make it any less wrong.
As for the 'transfer of ownership' arguement, I would argue that Stardock and GPG are the owners whom the game pirates have stolen from. They put in the hard work developing this product and deserve to paid for their efforts. I would ask those who avocate game piracy to put themselves in the shoes of the game publishers and developers. If they are not going to receive appropriate compansation for their work, what reason do they have to continue on creating new products? If everyone pirates products for (insert whatever rationalisation you what here), what does that mean for those people who produce those products for their liveihood?
The entitlement attitude that seems to be prevailent today sickens me. Whatever happen to saving up for a product and buying it when you could afford it? Heck whatever happen to, if you can't afford it then going without until you can?
I don't really care about copywrite protection on games I mean why would I. i just want to play the game that I bought. This is a prime example of people who didn't buy it, ruining my experience in some way.
I never said it wasn't against the law, I said it wasn't nessasarially morally wrong. I do agree it's legally and possibly socially wrong.
Fair enough. I understand your perspective. I just disagree.
I pirated this game. There I said it, judge me, I'm a bastard, whatever. Honestly if I never did pirate this game I wouldn't have given it a second thought because I prefer to actually try something out before deciding to spend $35 on it. $35 is expensive and I'm not blowing it on some crap game that will be interesting for 2 days and deteriorate slowly. I also youtube and check out game reviews before planning to buy it, and this game has a pretty poor review becuase its multiplayer function apparently sucks a lot. Playing with AIs has gotten boring which is why I'm buying the legit version currently and if the multiplayer doesn't work than what's the point?
@Raven-sb: Repeating yourself does not make you right. You might as well cover your ears and go "la-la-la" for all I care. The arguments are there and you ignoring them simply shows your shallowness.
@Murteas:
We're not "taking" we're copying. There's a difference. As such, not theft.
Again, there's 5 pages of argument on this that you're conveniently ignored to repeat the same stuff.
Thinking before posting is usually a good idea. Whether games are art or not is irrelevant, I even said software was culture. It is a fallous statement to say people are denied culture because they can't buy software. Culture abounds.
Surprisingly Appropriate link
For what it is worth, EULAs are pretty much worthless one sided "agreements" made after the fact. Try that with other products and services and see how far one get in the legal system which leads into the other minefield - The law...
Just because something is legal or not does not mean it is right or wrong. Law (in general) as it is made now, caters to special interest and does/is not designed to serve the public's interest but in fact the opposite. Laws should reflect social values yet often they do not to any real degree.
So you are either shitpoor or filthy rich, there is no inbetween? Your world is pretty black and white man.
There has been a cultural evolution since the beginning of the internet era, that is thanks to the sheer quantity of cultural information that we can take part in. Your argument of saving up for that precious little fragment of culture is not only old, it is a step backwards in our growth.
The world is a place of injustice, some people do NOT work at all, and have millions of dollars, some people work 365 days a year, 14 hours a day, and make 10 dollars a month. Perhaps they should save for 2 years to be able to buy a piece of software/culture or anything else that can be copied (not stolen) for free.
Myself, I bought the game, I belong to the rich western part of the world that can afford it. But pointing your gold ringed finger at the people who pirate that cannot afford to buy the stuff YOU do, is just distasteful.
I agree with that sentiment 100%, piracy is not as simple an issue as some people, including our lawmakers, make it out to be. Mainly because people universalise their opinion on the matter based on the environments and circumstances they're familiar with. That said, I'm gong to take up the opposing view for the sake of discussion .
Stop me if this has been discussed before (and please link me to the page), but can it not be argued that games are a form of entertainment and hence, a luxury? The world is an unfair place, yes, and some people can afford luxuries (in some cultures 4-wheeled cars are considered as such) and others can not. Even certain film and theatre productions which have been given the honourarium of 'art' cost money to see. While films may be pirated, stage productions can't - so seeing them is then more luxurious than movies because they're not easy to pirate?
Again, extrapolating something that was not said in my post. I'll try again: if you can afford a computer that costs several hundred dollars, and you can afford to have it connected to an internet connection, don't come whining and crying about not being able to afford to buy a game. Sorry, that argument fails.
So there is no people that can afford to have the hardware and not afford the software? That is preposterous, I have several friends that did not have the money to buy demigod. I know alot of people on welfare that do have both internetconnections and a computer, but still has little to no money to buy software with.
You can point your rich fingers at people without the economic security you have if they cry and whine, but it kinda makes you an a-hole imho.
You are right, some people can afford luxuries, art and culture and some cannot. But if it could be free (copying) to experience those luxuries, why would we try and shield the poorer people from experiencing the same art and culture as we (the rich) can?
In fact db0 I did read your arguments. I consider them to be a load of rationalising, self-justifying bull-manure.
Claiming that piracy is not stealing doesn't make you any less of a thief if you do it. That it is illegal to do so, harms the industry and robs the developers and publishers are facts. You can ignore them if you choose to, doing so however doesn't make you right.
I'm not sure if this has been covered in the previous posts, but meh...
Let's consider the not-too-distant future. If we take the "If it can be duplicated without negligible cost, there should be no scarcity and everyone should get a free copy" point of view, and let's assume that everybody on the planet does because that's the freetard utopian dream, suddenly nobody's buying a copy. Hurray!
However, to make awesome games like Demigod, Sins, Halflife, or any other large title, game developers have got to be able to work on them full time. For them to do that, they have to have a source of revenue. But nobody's buying games anymore, so there is no revenue. Therefore, game developers have to work a full-time day job in another industry and develop as a hobby.
In this beautiful, happy freetard utopia, then, what games will we have when developers can only scrap together a few hours here and there to make games?
Tux Racer.
Well, I'm certainly sold!
Until humanity arrives at a situation where the necessities of life are no longer scarce, if we want games to be developed, people need to continue to be paid to do it by some means. The current model is that to legally own a copy of a game, you have to pay for it. That money then goes to pay the developers, so that they can make another game. So,you give something... For something... Imagine that!
This thread made the MCV news feed today. You can read it here.
The same could be said about the music industry, and unpaid musicians have been booming with the birth of the internet and technology. How many developers havent played pirated games in their growing up and been influenced and evolved because of it, sure some companies did not make it, but later in time new ones came along with people influenced/evolved by their "illegal" actions and so far games keep getting more awesome each year, despite 20+ years of piracy.
In a world without scarcity, there would be no reason to make "money" because we would all get food on our plate anyway. In any case that is not the world today, the world of today has 70% of the population living in poverty and we are debating if people that dont have enough cash should pirate. I say ofcourse, do not neglect them the culture we the rich can afford.
I could afford demigod, thats why I bought. Im just saying dont point fingers on those who pirate, because if they could shit money like us they would have no reason to pirate it.
By your definition that would be correct, by my definition you are stealing.
However in this case you and I do not get to decide how the words are to be defined. Stardock defines the words associated with the product they distribute and help produce.
Since Stardock associates piracy with stealing that is how it shall be defined. If you do not like this definition make your own software and include an open source license; however Demigod does not have one.
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