While I, personally, would never send someone to MSNBC.com, I received an email today where MSNBC.com has a Live Vote currently that asked the following question:
"
from newsvine.com where you can comment about the Live Vote
Link
So what do you think? Should it be removed or is this argument stupid as some on the newsvine.com site say?
I figured one visit to this particular artticle of the site would not hurt much and instead could yield some interesting results. I recommend you try it just to see what people have voted so far.
Then I recommend you check out a link at the bottom
Now is it a coincidence that this chief deity, a moon god, was worshipped in the heart of where Islam is centered today? I don't think so especially considering their half moon symbol.
Many gods were worshipped in Mecca. Muhammed was exiled because he refused to do so.
The half moon symbol was the symbol of the (Christian) East-Roman Empire. It has only become an Islamic symbol when the Muslims took Constantinople. To argue that the half moon symbol adopted by Islam from a Christian source 500 years ago somehow is evidence for Allah being a "moon god" is ridiculous at best and dangerous at worst. Who is to say that the fact that Christians used that same symbol for over a thousand years, over twice as long as Muslims did, does not prove that the Christian god is a moon god using the same logic? After all, Paul grew up in a region where the Semitic pantheon was still revered.
Perhaps Paul believed Jesus was the moon? Perhaps that is why the Christians adopted the half moon as their symbol in Byzantium? I know the Bible says it is not so (any quotes where the "New Testament" directly contradicts the Christian god being a moon god?), but then so does the Quran contradict the claim that Allah is the moon god.
The pledge of alligience is a different manner though, you are required to pledge it in elementry school, you are required to pledge it when becoming a citizen... and also, why are you required to swear over a christian bible in court?
The pledge of allegiance did not originally include a reference to a god. It was added in the 1950s. If today it were to be removed and replaced with a reference to a couple of Hindu gods it would be as authentic as it has been since 1952.
You are also not required to swear over a Christian Bible in court. They let you use any symbol you want. At least that's how it is handled in Germany, and Germany is a Christian nation*.
*Technically the Federal Republic is not, but all the member states except two are constitutionally Christian, teach Christian religion in schools, use crucifixes as official symbols representing government power, and all German states treat church officials as national officials. This includes the parts of France that used to be German as well.
on the back of the one dollar bill are the 13 five pointed stars placed about the eagle formed into the star of David.
David's "star" (It's actually a shield. It's the Christians who have this star thing, not the Jews) has six points. The five-pointed one is the seal of Solomon. It's not used by Jews, it's used by the kings of Morocco and the emperors of Ethiopia, both houses claiming descent from Abraham via Yishmael and Solomon respectively.
In the dollar bill they represent the 13 free colonies, not Judaism.
The Shield of David has also never represented Judaism. The Minora represents Judaism. The Shield of David represents solely the House of David and the Jewish state, not the religion or even the people.
It has been adopted since as far back as I can remember. I do remember radio commercials in the 20's and 30's where Mogen David was used on anything Jewish in America, it was even used on steel wool soap pads. blue colored soap with the Star in the center. Don't forget Mogen David wine. I used to hate Passover just because we had to drink such lousy wine. The Mogen David was used all over for different reasons it was adopted by the Jewish state as a symbol, the Shield of the lion of Judah, if I remember correctly.
My point was not that it was chosen by a Jew it was chosen by President Washington as a symbol and a remembrance. All the man asked for was something to used in everyday life that would remind Americans that a Jew helped when the fledgling country needed friends.
can you tell me where this is and quote it for me Leauki?
Any arab that follows any Abrahamic religion prays to "Allah". Again, it's merely a way of saying "God". If Latin had been more prevalent in christian countries as the official "religious" language, the only one to properly pray to God the way Arabic is the proper Muslim language, we would probably be praying all to "Deus" (I think..? I never learned latin). Just because there is a general misunderstanding of the difference between the appelation "Allah" and the fact that muslims pray to "Allah" is no reason to accept the whole thing and move on.
And also, I must restate that the Muslim pray to the same god than Christians, Jewish and many other pray too. The only thing that will be different is:
- The interpretation of God's will on Earth (but then again, different christian sects have also that conflict up to a point)
- The interpretation of what effectively happened (a.k.a. they don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, as many Christians didn't until Christianity became Rome's state religion and they decided to propagate the religion in a new way)
Outside of this, it's the same concept, with the same general background of Adam, Lilith and Eve as the first three humans. With Noah who took 2 of each impure animals and 7 of each pure, etc... Not to forget Moses. There is a reason why Jerusalem is a sacred city for the Muslims too; shared roots.
Hell, when you think about it on the Muslim's point of view, we totally idolatrised one of God's Prophet and turned him into an idol, a God. And that idol has roots/took shape from the most horrible punishment that the Romans could find for non-citizens.
Not to forget that many of our holidays have been taken directly from Rome's pagan calender, and Christmas was the celebration of the Sun.
Christian religion is much more closer to any kind of symbol worship than the Muslim religion ever have been.
from any non christian point of view, especially a muslim or jewish, the christians worship three gods... or three "aspects" of the same god, but then again, many polytheistic religions worthip multiplke aspects of the same god.
And a lot of them also worship the virgin mary and a variety of saints.
This is true but a true Christian does not worship anything but God himself. Worshipping Mary is, according to God, an adulterous action. The trinity comes right from Gen 1 which Elohim (plural) is used 35 times. It's not three gods but one God; his majesty, power and creative powers and divinity is in a pluristic sense.
[quote]And also, I must restate that the Muslim pray to the same god than Christians, Jewish and many other pray too. [quote]
This is not true. Not only from the Christian perspective but even Muslims who have converted to Christianity set about to show the differences. Go find a book written by a Muslim who converted to Christianity. There's quite a few out there and they will show you where the differences lie.
This is not true. Christianity didn't become a state religion until 323 A.D. The divinity of Jesus was established in the first century. The whole NT was all about the fact that Jesus was God in the flesh starting right with John 1:1.
not true basic Christianity. There is no symbol worship. No icons. No statues. Christmas can be a pagan holiday or a Christian one depending on how one celebrates it. Same with Easter. There is pagan influence in both.
You only say that because you dont' know what you are talking about and you take the mistakes and failings of once sect and paint all of Christianity with it.
The word GOD is a generic term not the name of a specific god. The God that Jews, Christians, and Islamist pray to is the same God. This God has a name but we are forbidden to say it out loud except when we are speaking to him directly. All this crap about getting rid of God in public is an attack by the ignorant on Christians and Jews yet they ignore Islam in the same breath.
Try this on for size. There are three major religions in the world. Monotheism, polytheism, and atheism. Monotheism covers all beliefs in just one god. Polytheism, covers all beliefs in many gods, and atheism is the belief in no god. I know there probably is a belief system that has only one god that does not include the god of Jews, Christians, and Muslims but I am woefully (happily) ignorant of it. Since there are five billion people on the planet and three billion are monotheistic it will be hard to get rid of god.
This is why I celebrate Passover, Easter is just Passover for Christians.
Or the Festival of Eostre if you are pagan
I was reading this thread again and it all became kinda' funny to me. I mean, at what point does America have no common culture? We have already adopted the culture of immigrants from all over the world, which is awesome, but at what point do we just become o cesspool of politically correct junk? At what point do you get to pick which holy book to swear your oath on? At what point do we strip all the beliefs of our founding fathers from our daily lives? The way I look at it, the pledge of allegiance, the national anthem, the bible for swearing on for oaths, the images and sayings on our money, the scriptures quoted at the capitol, etc. are all part of our culture and history. Stripping that away would just be one step closer to creating a society with no common bonds or country culture.
Can you tell me where this is and quote it for me Leauki?
I remember that you have already been told before, here on JU.
Anyway, here we go:
And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Prostrate not to the sun nor to the moon, but prostrate to Allah Who created them, if you (really) worship Him. (Qur'an 41:37)
And while we are at it: "Elohim" is NOT plural.
(I was just interrupted: Ata rotze te? Do you want tea? Lo, toda. No, thank you... I am in Ramat Yishai in northern Israel.)
Leauki, everyone thru the centuries, Jewish or Gentile scholar, says it is except you. You're the only one I've ever heard that said Elohim is not plural.
well I didn't remember okay? Thanks for responding. But that quote doesn't negate what I said earlier. I did say they didn't worship the moon today didn't I?
Exactly. We've lost our way and it's becoming more and more chaotic in our country.
Well sort of but not entirely. Easter (Resurrection Sunday) celebrates the Risen Savior. He was the literal Passover Lamb. He was our lamb, without blemsih, sacrificed for our sins. Passover celebrates the freedom of the Jews from Egypt (saved by the blood of the lamb) and the return of Elijah (later incorporated) but many don't realize that the whole story of the resurrection is hidden in their celebration. Jesus died exactly when the lambs were being slaughtered for the Passover celebration. He was the fulfullment of the centuries of celebrated Passover. Only the Jews don't see it that way.
Not only that, but if you refuse to swear, it could be used agaisnt you in the case. There may be questioning of your truthfulness based off of just that.
I have never ever seen or heard of anybody claim that it was plural except you and a few other American Christians.
Everyone who reads Hebrew can clearly see that Elohim is singular. The very first sentence of the Bible makes it clear. "Bereshith bara Elohim...". The word "bara" is "he created", not "they created".
I have never ever read any of those people you claim say the word was plural. Every single scholar, every single linguist, and every single Israeli (who speaks Hebrew) can and will tell you that while Elohim _looks_ like a plural, it is and has always been, in the Bible, singular.
And even it if were plural, it wouldn't help you, because it COULD NOT be a trinity. Hebrew has three numbers, not two. And the ending -im is NOT the correct ending for a "trinity".
But I told you this before...
But that quote doesn't negate what I said earlier. I did say they didn't worship the moon today didn't I?
So when did you think they worshipped the moon? Before they got the Quran? Doesn't that sort of negate the premise that Allah is a moon god, if people worship the moon and are then told to worship Allah and _NOT_ the moon?
The way I look at it, the pledge of allegiance, the national anthem, the bible for swearing on for oaths, the images and sayings on our money, the scriptures quoted at the capitol, etc. are all part of our culture and history
And the facts say that history had those things without the references to a god. If you want to preserved history you should remove the references to gods again. They were added in the 1950s.
I have a book entitled "Islam Revealed" written by a Christian Arab named Dr. Anis A. Shorrosh. He said this among many other things about Muhammad and Islam:
"If Islam could trace its origin and prophecy to Abraham then we would expect to find Old Testament references to Allah, Muhammad, Mecca, the black stone of the Ka'bah, and the many ceremonies and practices of Islam. We have already seen that the Holy Bible is devoid of references to Muhammad, and there are no biblical references to anything else Islamic.
It is much more reasonable to conclude that Islam grew from the polytheistic and animistic culture of Muhammad's tribe. In fact, the people of Mecca worshipped 360 idols (sounds like National Geographic's article), one of whom was named Al-ilah!!!
That being the case, however there are numerous passages in the so-called inspired Quran which originally appered in the Old Testament more than one thousand years before the prophet of Arabia was even born. Though the Quranic and biblical passages are not identical, they are similar enough to show Muhammad's dependence on some of the HOly Bible's teaching for his "revelations." Here are a select few of the many texts that could be cited:
*The Night of Power is better than a thousand months. (Surat al-Qadr [The Power] 97:3)......For a day in Your courts is better than a thousand (Ps 84:10.
*Show us the straight path (Surat al-Fatihah [The Opening] 1:6).....Teach me Your way O Lord, and lead me in a straight path (Ps 27:11)
*We have written in the Scripture, after the Reminder My righeous slaves will inherit the earth. (Surat al-Anbiya [The Prophets] 21:105.........The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell in it forever. (Ps. 37:29)
*He is the First and the Last and the Outward and the Inward; and He is the Knower of all things (Surat al-Hadid [The Iron] 57:3)......I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God (Isa. 44:6)."
There are many other passages worthy of comparison. I'll spare you.
He also said this:
"It is intriguing and instructive to discover why Muhammad did not believe in the Trinity and the divinity or resurrection of Jesus Christ. To understand this we must examine the prevalent deviant doctrines of Nestorious and his followers, sectarian Christians who migrated to Arabia 140 years before Muhammad's birth. Muhammad apparently drew his denials from their heresy.
Nestorius was a partiarch of Constantiniple from A.D. 428-431. Orthodox Christians believed, as per scriptural teaching that Jesus had two natures, one divine and one human. Although the two were distinct they were joined together in one person. Nestorius, however, insisted that in Christ Jesus both a divine and a human person acted in unity, but were not the one divine person with both a divine nature and a human nature.
In A.d. 431 the Council of Ephesus judged the Nestorian beliefs to be heretical. Nestorious was deposed as partiarch. He and his followers were driven out of the Roman Empire and took refuge in Persia, Arabia, India, China and Mongolia. Their followers are identified as Nestorians or Monophysites (the Greek word monos means single, and physis means nature.)
Waraqa ibn Nofal, considered to be Muhammad's uncle, was also a Nestorian and is alleged to have translated portions of the Gospels into Arabic. He was very influential to Muhammad. Khadija Muhammad's first wife, is rumored to have been a Nestorian Christian.
Buhaira, a Nestorian monk, is recognized as one of the most influential men in Muhammad's knowledge of the scriptures. The descriptions of hell in the homilies of Ephraim, a Nestorian preacher of the sixth century, resemble Muhammad's descriptions of hell.
What was Muhammad doing between the time he married Khadija and his prophetic call, a period of 15 years? Could he have been lerning from Buhaira and Waraqa and reading some available biblicsl scrolls? "
I have a book entitled "Islam Revealed" written by a Christian Arab named Dr. Anis A. Shorrosh.
Irrelevant, as a Christian is not a source for another religion. Read a book written by a Muslim. He doesn't have to be an Arab.
I recommend these scholars.
Khaleel Muhammed (from Guyana, now USA):
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~khaleel/
Abdul Palazzi (from Italy):
http://www.amislam.com/
I talked to my Jewish teacher Marv this morning. He's very proficient in Hebrew. He's 74 years old and he knows much more than I do about this subject. He said Elohim is plural and he's going to get me a book that helps explain to me the Hebrew. He quoted some Hebrew to me and it went completely over my head. He told me to tell you this:
im is plural.....as in Seraphim is the plural of Seraph.....as in Cherubim is the plural of Cherub. He said even if you use two instead of three you're in trouble. His words, not mine. He also said to ask you what you think God was saying when he said "Let us go down and confound the language" during the time of Babal.
I also checked very old commentaries.....John Calvin (1500's), Charles Spurgeon (1800's), Matthew Henry (1700's) s well as some very recent expositors that I trust in and they all say Elohim is plural. I'm sure I can get alot more even from some of the Jewish besides my friend Marv. Even if you don't use that word Elohim as plural you still have trouble with the context as you read the OT scriptures. As in "let us make man in our image." Gen 1:26 and "let us go down" etc.
Do you even know anything about him? Not that I'm really surprised that you wouldn't consider my source but I have others. I just haven't had time to quote them yet. I have some that were worshipping Allah and are now worshipping Jesus.
Besides all that....Allah is not anything like the Hebrew God or the Christian God even though I will recognize some Christians don't know the difference or think they could be the same.
Maybe later, when I have more time I'll quote you one of my Christian sources who once upon a time was Islamic. He said he disagrees with those Christians who think that Allah and Jehovah God are the same God. And he gives his reasons.
Elohim is plural.....as in Seraphim is the plural of Seraph.....as in Cherubim is the plural of Cherub. He said even if you use two instead of three you're in trouble. His words, not mine. He also said to ask you what you think God was saying when he said "Let us go down and confound the language" during the time of Babal.
It is a logical fallacy to resort to an authority rather than facts.
If you check texts for the word "seraphim" you will find that the verbs agree with "seraphim" and are plural also (i.e. "the seraphim do", not "the seraphim does"). Elohim, on the other hand always commands verbs in the singular. Elohim is singular, and if your Jewish teacher wants to explain the Hebrew to you, ask him about the _second word_ of the Bible. It should give you the answer you need.
He said even if you use two instead of three you're in trouble.
I don't know what that means.
He also said to ask you what you think God was saying when he said "Let us go down and confound the language" during the time of Babal.
Let us think about it.
Does the "us" imply that I am more than one person?
Leauki, I'm thinking maybe, to some degree, we're not that far off with each other....
you mentioned:
I agree with this. God created...as in one God. We believe in one God. We Christians are monotheistic.
Think about it this way.....trinity is a compound of tri and unity. It's three in one.
I think you're thinking more along the lines as tri-theistic. That's not correct. We don't believe that.
I am a sister and a mother and an aunt but I'm still me which is one. I can't be all three in the same relationship.
It's not 1+1+1=3
It's 1X1X1=1.
Does that help any?
No. "Unity" is a compound of "one" and "-ity". "Trinity" is a compound of "three" and "-ity". One is "oneness" the other "threeness".
I am thinking along the lines of G-d being absolutely indivisible. You cannot, in Judaism and Islam, perceive G-d as different aspects. Hinduism and Christianity do that, Judaism and Islam do not.
I understand the idea. But in Judaism G-d cannot be described by what He is, but only by what He is not.
Christianity looks to explain G-d in terms that people can relate to. Judaism does too, but not to the extend that such anthropomorphic descriptions become part of the definition of what G-d is.
G-d is a father, in Christianity and Judaism, but in Judaism He is not a literal father.
But G-d is not a son, not in Judaism and not in Islam.
And the holy spirit just emanates from Him, it's not pat of Him. It's just an essence that we, human beings, can imagine even though we cannot describe it.
That's an excellent description but it does not explain the number three.
1 x 1 x 1 x 1 = 1
G-d could be a quadity or quintity or also a duality.
(In fact in modern Zoroastrianism G-d is a duality. But in ancient Zoroastrianism He was not. Modern Zoroastrianism developed from ancient Zoroastrianism like Christianity developed from Judaism. But Judaism (and Islam) retained the original unity view of G-d which Christianity and modern Zoroastrianism have replaced with a trinity and duality respectively.
In fact I am planning an article about the different Abrahamic religions and their views of G-d, their definitions of prophets, and their holy scriptures (i.e. which scriptures they accept as holy). I would be honoured if you would write short definitions to represent Christianity that I could use. I will do Judaism, Islam, Islamic sects, Zoroastrianism old and new, and Mandaism (unless somebody wants to step in and provide those definitions).
I would require a definition of G-d and the trinity (as above but in English rather than maths ), a definition of "prophet", and an explanation of the most important holy places (Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Nazareth) and holidays (Easter, Christmas; not so much the rituals but the events that they ought to remind of). I understand Christianity's holy scriptures are supposed to be the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) and the "New Testament". (Despite small differences in the text of the Tanakh vs "Old Testament" I will count them as the same because they are supposed to be the same.)
Religions I want to include:
Judaism, priestly, rabbinic, and Qaraite
Islam, Sunni, Shia, and Sufi (only traditional and no Wahabiism)
Zoroastrianism, ancient and modern
Mandaism
Samaritanism
Yezidiism and related rites
Christianity, oriental, Greek, Roman, protestant
What do you think?
You need a better history teach. Only the Pledge of Allegiance had "God" added in the 50's.
-Coins have had "In God We Trust" on them since the mid 1800's-Oath on the bible- George Washington gave his oath on the bible.-Scriptures at the Capitol: Jefferson memorial (1943), Washington Monument (1885), etc.
Or, let's look at our forefather's thoughts that they placed in the Declaration of Independence to see how long "God" has been in the History of the US: -"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. "I'm not Christian, but I am not blind to our history. I am also not fond of stripping culture and unity just because it's more PC to do so.
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