While I, personally, would never send someone to MSNBC.com, I received an email today where MSNBC.com has a Live Vote currently that asked the following question:
"
from newsvine.com where you can comment about the Live Vote
Link
So what do you think? Should it be removed or is this argument stupid as some on the newsvine.com site say?
I figured one visit to this particular artticle of the site would not hurt much and instead could yield some interesting results. I recommend you try it just to see what people have voted so far.
Then I recommend you check out a link at the bottom
yes it should be removed. sure it doesn't specificy WHICH god... but it does specify A GOD. mother nature or evolution or darwin or "a rock or a tree" (to quote the alcoholics annonymous) is not worshipped by atheists, they worship no one. And it does imply the christian god, but honestly, who cares, its a backwards primitive thing that should not be on currency or pledge of alligience.
While this is true, a lack of religion promotes atheism, does it not?
No. Saying that no god exists promotes atheism. Making no statement whatsoever about gods doesn't promote anything.
At least, that is how the religious will see it.
I don't know whom you consider religious, but I go to synagogue every week, observe most holidays to some extend, regularly travel to Jerusalem, and read the Bible a lot; and I don't see it that way.
But I don't consider myself religious. Perhaps you mean that those who consider themselves religious might see it that way. I think those people often have something to prove to themselves.
Yes, that is what I mean. There is a difference between 'spiritual' and 'religious'.
I wouldn't call myself spiritual or religious.
no offense taken but you are right. Christ said you are either for me or against me. That's all there is to it. Anti- means "against" or "in place of."
sounds like you haven't met any Christians. You said your mother is a Christian. Does she do these things you're accusing Christians as doing? The Christians I know don't do these things. Do you know the diff between being tolerant of people and tolerating sin? We can separate the two. A Christian can love the sinner and not the sin. We are always to fight what is evil and wrong but we are always to love the sinner and treat them as a creation of God. Jesus always said "go and sin no more." He addressed sin when he saw it. We are not suppose to tolerate sin and as our laws are going in that direction, yes we are going to fight these laws on moral biblical grounds. It's the laws we're against, not the people. Know the difference.
are you saying I'm misrepresenting the facts? What have you brought to the table? We have gads of evidence against what you are saying here and I supplied you with just a hint earlier. You don't have a leg to stand on here. It's taken since the 1960's to get rid of the Christian influence we've had in this nation since its inception and we're still at work de-Christianizing this country. The words on our money and the scriptures all over our national treasures and monuments and the prayer in our Senate is about all that's left right now. Soon that will be gone as well. You're getting worked up because deep down you know you're wrong and you cannot articulate it and that's what's making you angry. If you were right, you wouldn't be angry.
where did you get that saying? I'll tell you. From Christ himself.
and you are asumming or judging the Christians as a group by saying they are doing this. So you need to take that log out of your eye. I'm going to tell you right now....if you call yourself a Christian and you treat some human being as less human than you're either NOT a Christian or a very very weak one; a baby Christian who knows no better. Christ said "the world will know you by your love you have for each other." He also said to "love and to good to your enemies."
See that's how Satan works. He puts pseudo Christians (tares) out there among the wheat and until the harvest many can't recognize what is what. Just like when I weed a garden before the vegetable plants get too big I don't know what is weed or what is going to be a vegtable plant. Don't fall for this trick.
and that sounds great in theory but it's not going to happen. The reason? Pride. That's what I'm trying to say....from a Christian perspective (genuine) it's all about being "other minded" not self-minded. For instance.....think about Adam and Eve. Everything was great; hunky dory until they sinned. Up until that point they didn't even recognize their own nakedness. Why? because their focus was not on themselves. It was on God. As soon as they sinned they looked within and at each other. Focus changed.
Only when our focus changes can we get out of that black hole you're speaking of. If we're not worshipping God, we are worshipping self...and Alderic you pretty much said this yourself earlier when you said you rely on your own intelligence and achievements. Right?
from what I see and my experiences over the years, the majority are in Christian name only. The real deep down committed Christians are alot fewer than you think. Some are just political for political sake. Some are just Christian in name because of heritage or habit. Some for business reasons; how it looks etc. In every church I've ever been to, there's a much smaller remnant of true bible believing Christians. The rest are either lukewarm or cold all together.
The real deep down committed Christians are alot fewer than you think.
Does a deep down committed Christian require government to support the religion?
I think it probably does. The bible tells us that "bad company corrupts good character."
So if, from God's perspective, all those that learn about him enough to follow him are considered "good" then it would stand to reason that those who turn their back on god and promote another way would be considered "bad" then not having "religion" would in a way promote atheism.
If one "bad apple" corrupts a whole barrel then what would a whole country of "bad apples" (relative term) do?
All thru the OT God forbid the Hebrews to marry outside of their heritage. It had nothing to do with their physical heritage but all to do with the spiritual. The other nationalities were worshipping many false gods and God did not want his people corrupted because eventually they would all turn and follow them.
In the NT as well, we as Christians are told not to marry outside the faith (not denomination). In other words Christians are to mary other believers. This is called being equally yoked spiritually. When we don't do this we usually fall into all sorts of troubles later on in our marriages and the house is divided against God.
no.
That's logical fallacy, and silly to boot.
I do know the difference of tolerating people and tolerating the sin, but if you love the person and tolerate the person...then why do these so called Christians do what they do? It just doesn't make sense to me.By going against the law you go against the people, because to them, the law is them. It's all about what they are, and who they are.
Actually I got it from Theodore Adomo and his book Minima Moralia.
I'm saying either A) Certain Christians misrepresent the facts. -OR- People in general have problems with understanding and interpreting words and actions.
I mean look at it, John Adams - by far a man known for his faith - signed a treaty confirming and made a statement confirming the secularism of the government (if not the nation). They weren't religiouis, so much as they had a belief system and based it soley on reason and logic, not faith. That's what a Deist is.
Additionally, by your comments - it is entirely reasonable to question the so claimed Christianity of America. Are these people who claim Christianity, true Christians? Or do they just check a box randomly?
I'm not angry, so much as I'm annoyed by the grasping at straws most folks end up doing. The evidence is there, the logic is there. Now if only religious folk will just keep to themselves and non religious would keep to themselves, i.e. live and let live - the world would be cherry pie. *le sigh* But it's a idealistic dream.
I just want to see my friends (homosexual friends) be happy, and unfortunately, because of your kind, they can't be.They can't marry who they love because of what your kind believes in. I'm sorry, but that's just wrong.
Nope, I don't worship myself; I rely on myself. There's a difference in having confidence in what I do, as well as relying on myself and what not. For the record, I've always put others in front of myself. I wouldn't call that egoism.
~Alderic
S & J TEARS POSTS #1
True.
Besides on our currency, "In God we trust" is in our national anthem, The Star Spangled Banner" and is our national motto.
Given all the other references to God, ie. the Declaration of Independence, references to the Creator, the carvings, symbols and images in national buildings including the Ten Commandments, it seems obvious, at least it does to me, that the word "God" in the motto, "In God we trust" means the one God, the Supreme, Self-existent, Eternal Spirit. The Christian God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Who designed, created, and rules the universe and all that's in it, including mankind.
Christians hold God to be the Maker of the laws that are manifest in nature and the moral law that man is obliged to obey. God is the beginning and the end for whom mankind was created. By God, Christians, mean the Eternal Creator from whom emanated certain inalienable rights with which the nature of man is endowed as our Declaration of Independence avers.
So, America's faith in God is seen in her motto "In God we Trust" , in Francis Scott Key's anthem, and ever since the 1800s, also stamped on her currency.
IF some, mostly atheists, have their way, every reference, every mention, no matter how slight, of the Judeo-Christian God will be removed from government and public life.
Oh please, next they will want to take the star of David off the one dollar bill.
on the back of the one dollar bill are the 13 five pointed stars placed about the eagle formed into the star of David. This was done to honor the banker that helped finnance the revolution. George Washington asked what he could do to honor the man and he replyed that America in some form remember the Jewish people that helped. The Star of David was placed on the one dollar bill to let Jews know that we remember them and respect them. Bet you racist liberals didn't know that.
In God we trust, all others pay cash!
liberals tend to hate jews, jews are successful and powerful which means they must be evil.
So this is your response, this is the response of a Christian? Fear? Slippery slope fallacies? Persecution fantasies? Assumptions? Generalizations? That's not logical, that's not using the (God given) brain.
[quote who="Paladin77" reply="11" id="2146197"]Oh please, next they will want to take the star of David off the one dollar bill.on the back of the one dollar bill are the 13 five pointed stars placed about the eagle formed into the star of David. This was done to honor the banker that helped finnance the revolution. George Washington asked what he could do to honor the man and he replyed that America in some form remember the Jewish people that helped. The Star of David was placed on the one dollar bill to let Jews know that we remember them and respect them. Bet you racist liberals didn't know that. In God we trust, all others pay cash!
Yup, I'm a racist bastard; deal with it. Not like I've dated and was engaged to marry a Jewish woman, or that one of my best friends is Jewish, or that I have a great deal of respect (and healthy skepticism/disagreement toward) for a local Rabbi; my grandfather.
Nope, I'm just some racist, anti-christian, nazi.
As for that story:
1. The star of david has six points, not five. -- Fact You would think that if a Jewish man wanted to do as you said, he would know the Star of David, and get it right.
2. The "financer of the revolution" was Robert Morris, who mind you, was not Jewish; however, I will conced that perhaps Mr. Morris did indeed ask Washington that, but he certainly wasn't Jewish - he was Episcopalian. Haym solomon was instrumental in helping finance the war, but he wasn't as you say, "Financer of the revolution."
BTW,here is what Washington said about Jews," They (the Jews) work more effectively against us, than the enemy's armies. They are a hundred times more dangerous to our liberties and the great cause we are engaged in ... It is much to be lamented that each state, long ago, has not hunted them down as pests to society and the greatest enemies we have to the happiness of America."
(GEORGE WASHINGTON, in Maxims of George Washington by A. A. Appleton & Co.)
3. It's interesting to note that the current edition, in its current design, (for want of a term) came out in 1957 . -- Fact.
Addendum:
"The first $1 notes (called United States Notes or "Legal Tenders") were issued by the Federal Government in 1862 and featured a portrait of Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase (1861-1864)."
(National Treasury - Bureau of Engraving and Printing: http://www.moneyfactory.gov/document.cfm/18/2230 )
Thanks Paladin77..
From the book, "Symbols of a Nation", I found the following....that the constellation of 13 stars formed into one reinforces the motto E.Pluribus Unum...breaking through a divine radiance it denotes a new nation taking its place and rank among others.
From the same book, with regard to famous great seal, and regard to the Jewish people, it states:
Over a period of 6 years 3 separate committees tried to come up with an acceptable design for the Great Seal of the US, the national coat of arms that was needed in order to authenticate official documents. The first committee--Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and John Adams....turned to the Bible and to classical mythology for inspiration. Jefferson proposed that the seal depict the Isrealites' passage through the wilderness, led by a divine cloud and a pillar of fire. Adams suggested the mythical Hercules choosing between the paths of virtue and self-indulgence. Franklin wanted to show Moses commanding the Red Sea to close over the pharaoh.
In a quandry, they called in a consultant, a Swiss born Philiadelphia artist who pointed out the greatest thing about the US is that it was a new nation forged out of many. His design featured a shield and around the shield were 13 smaller ones representing the new states.
There were two other designs offered, one with the majestic eagle, symbol of power, bearing a shield with 13 stripes and all three were given to Charles Thompson, secretary of Congress who ended up retaining something from each of the three designs and he's the one who came up with what we see now.
Alderic,
As soon as I read Paladin's comment...I checked out my one dollar bill and can see 6 points on it. So calm down and look again. It's truly a six pointed star...
CIKOMYR POSTS #34
kfc posts:
Yes, absolutely...This is the crux of the matter and what the Jewish prophets prophecied....The one true God was manifested in the flesh (Incarnation) to redeem mankind.
Here is a quote from an priest who was teaching on this very subject....
Whatever may be the connotations of “Allah” for those who have been raised in an Arabic culture, everywhere else on earth the term “Allah” refers very specifically to the Muslim deity. And the Muslim conception of God differs greatly from that held by Christians. The change in terminology would inevitably both signal and foster a change in belief.
The conception of God referred to by the name “Allah” is not Trinitarian. There is no Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nor is this Allah incarnational. There is no Jesus Christ, true God and true Man. Nor has Allah revealed the deep connection of suffering with redemptive love, let alone acted upon that understanding. Allah has not taught us the way of the Cross. Rather, there is every evidence that he rejects it. In every other language but Arabic, “Allah” does not mean what Christians mean when they speak God’s name.
A distinction, of course, is in order. We can recognize that when a Muslim prays to “Allah”, he is praying to the only God there is, however imperfect his understanding. ....But we cannot take a word now universally used to describe the Muslim conception of God and use it as our own. For us, this would be a betrayal. The only friends this would win would be those eager to see us deny Christ.
Instead of obscuring our witness to the distinctiveness of the Christian God, let’s stop witnessing to secularism, materialism and hedonism. Let’s stop our self-indulgence and our failure to stand for truth. We’re far more likely to win the approval of Muslims if we do, and we’ll certainly win God’s approval, which is all that really matters, through Jesus Christ Our Lord
LEAUKI POSTS #42
That's exactly what KFC did....The Jewish concept of God comes from Jewish Scripture and Moses as well as the OT prophets, prophecied the coming of the Messias which Christ Who is God made man fulfilled in every minute detail. Those Scriptural passages were all pointed out to you in a different thread.
The Islamic and Bahai concept of God do not fit with the OT Jewish Scripture or prophecies one iota but they most suburbly do with the Christian concept of God.
LEAUKI POSTS:
This may be true of modern Judaism but it's not of Biblical Judaism. Biblical Judaism is full blossomed in Christianity.
This may be true of modern Judaism but it's not of Biblical Judaism.
Biblical Judaism and "modern Judaism" and Islam see G-d in the same way.
Biblical Judaism is full blossomed in Christianity.
Biblical Judaism was, if anything, even more opposed to icons, pictures of gods, and praying to a corporeal god than modern Judaism.
That's exactly what KFC did
No, that's not what she did.
She attempted to compare Islam's god with Christianity's god, saw that there are differences between the two and concluded that hence Islam's god must be different from Judaism's god.
That's a logical fallacy because it doesn't establish that Judaism's and Christianity's god are the same.
Never mind that she doesn't know Judaism's view of god well or Islam's view of god at all. A few months ago she still thought that Islam's god was the Moon.
It's well known Leauki going back thru history this is where it all started. Sure they don't go out and worship the moon today but they do have a reminder of it by having a cresent as their symbol. For every effect there is a cause. This came from somewhere.
According to the 2001 National Geographic on this subject....
"Abraham may have worshipped Sin, the god of the moon and Ur's cheif deity. Mesopotamians worshiped a pantheon of deities, including ones like Sin, but each person also had an additional personal god."
We all know that Ur also known as Mesopotamia is modern day Iraq. There was discussion on whether or not Abraham's reflections on the moon god had led him to the idea that the world is governed by one God.
Now is it a coincidence that this chief deity, a moon god, was worshipped in the heart of where Islam is centered today? I don't think so especially considering their half moon symbol.
We know that Islam traces its heritage back to Abraham's son Ishmael, not Isaac (Jewish) and from what I understand Allah was considered a one time a moon god.
What is strange is that on all of mine there are five points, and in other sources I've read state that the star is five pointed.Maybe someone somewhere had a major glitch, but that's what I had to work with.
Could you provide a direct quote? Because I keep reading that Thomson (not Thompson) was the principle designer of the great seal, not the entire design.
The stars are 5 pointed, but they create a 6 pointed star in formation. However, I have a feeling that it has more to do with the Freemason's designing the bill than it has to do with any Jewish roots.
That's what I thought; the five points and then the six pointed star. Still though, if you look at it you really can sort of make out anything you wish, within reason.
is there any documentation of the "jewish friend" which wanted the jews to be respected in such an obscure hidden manner (its not even a SOLID star of david... which btw is not even the symbol of jewdaism outside of holliwood.. it is the symbol of ISRAEL but that is a different story)
Also, do two wrongs make a right? a bunch of religious allusions on bill... well actually they can remain, its so full of weird symbolisms, allusions to hidden societies, etc... its kinda cool actually as a historical thing.
The pledge of alligience is a different manner though, you are required to pledge it in elementry school, you are required to pledge it when becoming a citizen... and also, why are you required to swear over a christian bible in court?
good question and while you're at it maybe you can answer this one...."why do they open the Senate in Prayer?"
that is a good question kfc but i dont think you were being sarcastic... swearing over a bible makes no sense at all because you have no idea if the person is actually chrisitan... and if you did, or if they refused, then it creates an environment of religious tension. Starting a court case by asking the witnesses to either lie about being christian or make a fuss about being a different religion that the jury is not a wise thing.
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