Has it ever occured to anyone that, over the course of history, humans often come to the conclusion that anything that cannot be explained at the moment is automatically considered to be supernatural? For example, the Greeks. They had a god for just about anything that they could not explain with their means of science or technology at the time. How else could they explain the torrent of fire and molten lava that spwes out of a volcano? By claiming that Hephasteus is simply working in his forge of course.
But fast forward to today. And we know that isn't the case. The advent of computers, automobiles, airplanes, etc etc etc, would simply astound the Ancient Greeks. They would consider us gods. They would be unable to speak out of pure awe.
And since science is never ending in the sense that, with each question answered, more questions are formed... we still do not have a logical explanation for God. That being that supposedly judges us from afar, and moves through us all.
Think about it though... what if we just haven't reached the technological threshold to explain it yet?
It could be possible, that "God" is nothing more than a wave that interacts with our matter. Influencing our decisions with maybe electrical impulses or something similar. Religion is making "god" more important than it really is. With the advent of more powerful technology, we may be able to see what it is that moves through us all. More than likely, it is just another force of nature. It justs exists. It is there, always has been. But it is not a being, it is not something to worship... it is just not something we can understand. YET.
Basically, what I am trying to say is, we humans have proven over time that with the advent of better technology we can understand the ways of nature around us. So what's to stop us from unlocking the secrets of the universe? As well as explaining what "god" really is? We just can't comprehend it yet... but we will in time I think. Just like we did with volcanoes, oceans, telephones, airplanes, etc etc etc.
Religion is powerful in many ways no doubt. It helps certain people get through rough times, and to them, it explains the way things are as well giving them a code of ethics that they can follow. But religion is also on a way ticket to being obsolete. If science can bridge the gap between the two, what now?
Now just so everyone knows, I am not trying to attack anyones beliefs, I am merely wondering outloud if the above could be the case. I would also like to hear what other people have to say. Please be open-minded, and rational.
I will explain in better detail some ideas that I have heard as well some of my own if a great dialogue can be established.
Sinperium, I do not look at religion as a specific problem theologically. And I certainly don't have a bone to pick with you or anyone else for that matter. My specific bone of contention is with the RCC and Co. ... pure and simple. After a while (for me) religion blends into Catholicism as I have been 'chatting' with them for a couple of years. I appologize if there was a confusion ... I guess it happens when you comment on many different threads. I do not mind mincing words on religious topics ... as long as they are not trying to tell me what I have to do or where I came from. The Bible is actually a fair fiction untill it is taken literally (IMO) ... that is where I fall out. Here is a clip to demonstrate ... something?
It should be scandalous … when atheists know more about religion than Catholics or Christians???
Jafo, did you even bother to look at the clip yourself? Maybe you could offer some insight as to why you took this action. Requested by whom ... and why? Monopolies normally don't offer explanations ... but honest people usually do??? Maybe I should have titled it “How much do you really know about God” …
Here is the URL for those who want to watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wifUXxsOPMA&feature=player_embedded
Anyone interested in taking the pop quiz can find it here:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/28/dont-know-much-about-religion-youre-not-alone-study-finds/
Embedding disabled....
wait, the US is the most religious country in the world? What about Israel? What about Iran? What about Iraq? What about the rest of the Muslim countries that I'm too lazy to list? What about India?
Have I made my point?
Hi Boobz. No offense taken and thanks for the gesture. I hate religious intolerance (of both sorts) myself.
I have Christian friend who is an attorney from and residing in India and we have talked extensively about these things. In the course of our conversations she has remarked on the difference between a "true convert" in India and the American evangelists who visit her country oftentimes to "preach to them".
She said it is not uncommon for local pastors to have to apologize to their people for the presentation by some of these "workers" after they leave. Often native-born Indian believers scratch their heads in bewilderment at the things done and said by these foreign visitors.
I have had to on occasion do the same thing with my own children after attending a church. Institutions run like corporations fail at presenting Christ. It takes individuals.
There are real people with real faith who would humble you if you met them--we just just don't see much of them here in "civilization".
For all the dogmatically perfect individuals who believes anything they are told there are a few people who don't have to be told at all. It's an insult to real Christians to compare the two.
Like you, I am offended by the politically correct counterparts, but unlike you I have also met the real deal. They do exist but are smaller in number and don't point to themselves in public all the time.
They don't get mentioned in intellectual and religious debates--they are too busy just being themselves.
Sinperium; For the American Christians at least the ones I encountered here on JU are Christian in name only. They know all the proper words to use but they don't know how to use them. It is pretty much a conversation buster when one starts with "you are going to hell for eternity (whatever that is)" ... unless you listen to me, hahaha. I have heard this stuff before but at the time it didn't mean too much to me ... now I know a lot more on the subject. American Christians for the most part mostly seem to take pride on how much of the Bible they can memorize as if that is a measure of something 'good'. As I have said before, I was ‘a Catholic (forced by my parents) at age six not for religious reasons … just so they could feel good about sleeping together in the eyes of the Church (one was Catholic). It has always amazed me to watch the Church (RCC of course) capitulate their morals anytime there is enough money involved. It took fifteen hundred years till Martin Luther called the RCC out for the hypocrites they have always been. Christians are all lovie-dovie today but that is only because they have been disarmed. In my opinion, true Christianity was amply expressed during the first millennium after its inception when they may have actually ‘believed’ their make believe God was on their side. They were (are) just another typical theocracy in the making and nothing more as I see it. I am a firm believer that actions and ‘proof’ far outweigh cheap talk. You were right though … it takes individuals … not the corporate views, to convey honesty. Unless you are different, I don’t think you have the vernacular to describe ‘the real deal’ to an old atheist like myself in words that would convey something meaningful. I am sure I would appreciate your experience … I just wouldn’t understand it is all.
I clicked 'play' and got the message 'embedding disabled'...so I posted that fact.
Other than that there WAS NO 'action' I took.
It's much the same that sometimes 'clips' are restricted and not available in other countries [typically outside the US].
Never assume I 'did something' as it really does make one an ASS.
I am ONLY here in this thread to make sure people are playing nice. I really have no interest in the topic....or rather certainly no interest in debating it on the Internet.
There is only one g-d and the being is the person that makes the mortgage payment on the house. All other pretenders are just that!
Jafo sorry, not to worry though, I seem to have no problem coming across in this manner but … I don’t need any help, ok. It never occurred to me though … it’s just … it was ... an assumption … my-oh-my ... Wait a minute, you clicked play … and then it was disabled … it was you, hehehe. ... I can learn from my errors, for sure.
PS: I did include the links if you are still interested.
@Boobz I think in real life it would be a lot easier to have a one-on-one conversation. I was a Christian from the age of nine but didn't begin attending a church until the age of 27. It was immediately apparent to me then that much of what was foisted as "truth" was in fact not.
I have given my wife and kids a measuring rod to tell when they are in the presence of religion posing as "Christianity". When they tell you the simple facts about what Christian claims are--great. When they present Jesus in a clear and unambiguous , straightforward manner--fine. it's when they tack on, "and you must..." that I tell them they have run off the rail.
Genuine Christianity is a thoughtful choice made as a result of personal experience and conviction. No one can compel it, no one can force or create it and altering it to make it more fun or appealing or pressured is disingenuous. A person makes a choice for reasons they are convinced are truth.
When someone says, "You need Jesus and you must also..." they have entered the realm of religion and left faith behind.
My best friends were pagans, atheists and agnostics well into my late twenties. I was the only Christian they actually knew well personally and we always mutually respected one another. We could talk late in the night and have heated discussions but we never resorted to, "You're stupid because you think this".
If there is an actual God as Christians (I) believe, it is on all of our sides. No respecter of one person over another, etc. If it is possible to know of this God, it is on that being to make a way to find it--no one should discourage anyone from looking for that or condemn anyone for not understanding it.
And it's not possible on an internet forum, but I guarantee you if you talked with me face-to-face, I could present some things that would challenge your current worldview for explanation.
I appreciate your temperance in our conversation here and think you have a great attitude overall. Thanks.
Science and Religion … hump. Science couldn’t give a hoot about religion any more than it does for science. It never will if only because of our understanding of how things work … that is science. Whenever something becomes visible or detectable, that is the day science will become involved with it … not a day sooner. People who try to integrate these two ‘theories’ are: an obvious fool, a zealot or a con-artist. End of story!
Sinperium, if that is the case, then you should be able to prove your experience scientifically then ... and that would be the end of the story (IMO). It isn't so much that I don't want to believe in miracles ... I just cannot is all. I wouldn't take your experience away from you even if I could because it seems to have made you a reasonable, knowledgeable and fair minded man. What matters MY beliefs and thoughts compared to that ... they are meaningless and unimportant to your message. It isn't that I don’t care what others think ... it is just that their professed thoughts and beliefs do not fit into my physical (real) world view. I don’t know how to make exceptions and in that respect I guess we are equals. But there is one difference … I can prove myself to anyone reasonably educated and you can prove nothing to anyone who is not a follower or believer.
PS: Do you know much about ‘private posts’? I tried it once and it seemed to be private … my question is can individuals be invited or is it just private and public only???
Hmm...I have never used a private post here. This technology exists!? Maybe Jafo will enlighten us?
FYI--I would never ask anyone to dismiss their worldview so they can accept mine. What I would do is present my experience and then challenge them to address it with their own worldview--and point out when they were being dismissive or evasive in the process
I can share some of the things that have happened to em completely outside the context of religion or even spirituality...and then simply follow it up with, "So if one had this experience, what would one do with it?"
I already know the stock answers from the "typical" skeptic but where it gets interesting is when you cut through the smoke and mirror arguments and really consider the issue you get some interesting responses. Basically, if all sides are actually honest and not pushing a doctrinal agenda, it's not a bad conversation in any way.
Sinperium, I have had an ongoing 'discussion' with 'ALL' sides of the aisle (s) on the topic of "Atheism is a Religion ... or not”, of all things unimportant, oh well. I posted a new article where I confess our treachery (hahaha) ... "The Religion of Atheism … Exposed". The article such as it is was intended to make a point ... not to draw crowds of unconcerned people with flippant comments. We may have some initial semi-privacy there and see what develops. And since it is my post ... I don't care what is discussed (atheism is an individual thing too). I am not even sure how to ‘explain’ it because the only real definition is scoffed at by seemingly most people, go figure. What part of “I don’t believe in God” is difficult to comprehend and understand … it is just beyond me?
Atheism runs the gamut. In a pure sense, it is simply a worldview detached from emotion and bias and defined by firm parameters--rejecting things that don't meet certain criteria.
In real life however...find me someone who is "emotionally detached and unbiased". No such creature.
For most, atheism is genuinely a dogma if not a religion. By that I mean when presented with something not conforming to it's core tenets--but also not explicable by them--atheistic philosophy most often simply chooses to ignore it. Nothing more than, "I deny your reality and replace it with my own!". This isn't exactly the sparkling intellectual tower most atheists I know feel they live in but for them they will take the illusion of that perfection over having to grapple with things they don't know how to quantify.
Heck--I'm from Missouri..."Show me".
Seen Bigfoot? Talk to me about why I should believe you--I'll listen. Abducted by aliens? Run it by me and I'll wait before I decide your crazy. Think the moon landing never happened? Sorry, heard that one already but give it a try if you have something new and I'll give you a minute.
I'm not asking you (or anyone) to "magically believe in God". I'm suggesting before you dismiss every experience by every person who does that you might listen to what someone has to say (and it doesn't need to be me) before declaring every one of them and all of their claims as bollix.
As to "proving my experience scientifically?"--give me a time machine and let me bring you along and then--sure--no problem. The kind of "proof" most atheists want though is about equal to "how much" land Palestine wants to be at peace with Israel. you might as well ask me to finish up and prove out all of M-theory while we're at it. It certainly wouldn't be any more difficult.
Atheism is a word that seems to convey much more information to believers that to the actual people they want to talk about. From a purely analytical (theological) standpoint ... anything that doesn't comply with the traditions of those with whom you speak is in some way, shape or form ... atheistic ... by definition. This of course has nothing to do with me personally if for no other reason than it is too general and is all encompassing such as to have no real meaning. It is of course a non-squinter; if religion had not been invented by man ... this conversation would not be taking place. And since this atheist nonsense only came to be after religious folk interrupted my pagan world … I am supposed to take it seriously … why? I just don’t hop to other banners to feel good about myself or to engage in discourse …
You can suggest whatever you like; I am not obligated to pay homage. All those things you mentioned belong in the same classification as religion, the supernatural … right with the tooth fairy, voodoo and the flying purple people eater … mysticism. All it takes to believe any of this nonsense is something called FAITH (no proof necessary) … and I don’t have any use for magic. I just wish I knew how they do it on stage … this is about as close as I want to get on the subject. If you can listen to another 'Big Foot' tail with a straight face ... you are much more a man than I am (hahaha) ... pun intended!
Yes, it exists. It's personal, ie. one-on-one and is not accessible to a third party.
Click on a person's nick and you'll get a drop-down of options....one of which is 'Personal Message'.
Only rule is....Personal Messages are not for public redistribution as there is no immediate way to check their veracity and thus they can be potentially damaging....
Understood. The secrets of the Illuminati shall remain secret sir. thanks for the info you commie.
*DISCLAIMER* ... that was humor.
Odd...at one stage I had an entry in WIKI as 'that fascist bastard admin from Wincustomize'....so 'commie' is a step up....
LOL, this discussion is still going?
I guess we will all find out soon enough whom is right...
Lol. Communism will be the "new chic" soon anyway.
@SivCorp--no one will be unanimously declared "right". The idea is that the exchange of ideas should always be an option--not dogmatic table thumping and internet quoting with put-downs, insults and blanket dismissals.
"Peace is a dream we have held for a long time now."
Atheism is a religion, just like the rest. Polytheism, monotheism, atheism.... Just like zero is a number. No, zero is not the absence of numbers; it's a number. It took mankind 4000 years before the Arabs finally figured that out. Saying atheism is not a religion is just their way of trying to make themselves "the" religion; just like Christians saying they are the one religion and everyone else is a cult. Everybody thinks their religion is the only real one. Welcome to the real world.
The absence of religion is probably agnosticism. Which would be analogous to 0/0, or NaN (not a number) in science terms.
Actually, the Arabs just brought the zero to Europeans. They found it in India, where it was 'invented' somewhere around 800-900 CE I think.
p.s. There is definitely a forum bug, at least in this thread. The quote block above auto-attributed to Sinperium despite having the correct reply number for Tetleytea's post.
Looks correct here/now...
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