Has it ever occured to anyone that, over the course of history, humans often come to the conclusion that anything that cannot be explained at the moment is automatically considered to be supernatural? For example, the Greeks. They had a god for just about anything that they could not explain with their means of science or technology at the time. How else could they explain the torrent of fire and molten lava that spwes out of a volcano? By claiming that Hephasteus is simply working in his forge of course.
But fast forward to today. And we know that isn't the case. The advent of computers, automobiles, airplanes, etc etc etc, would simply astound the Ancient Greeks. They would consider us gods. They would be unable to speak out of pure awe.
And since science is never ending in the sense that, with each question answered, more questions are formed... we still do not have a logical explanation for God. That being that supposedly judges us from afar, and moves through us all.
Think about it though... what if we just haven't reached the technological threshold to explain it yet?
It could be possible, that "God" is nothing more than a wave that interacts with our matter. Influencing our decisions with maybe electrical impulses or something similar. Religion is making "god" more important than it really is. With the advent of more powerful technology, we may be able to see what it is that moves through us all. More than likely, it is just another force of nature. It justs exists. It is there, always has been. But it is not a being, it is not something to worship... it is just not something we can understand. YET.
Basically, what I am trying to say is, we humans have proven over time that with the advent of better technology we can understand the ways of nature around us. So what's to stop us from unlocking the secrets of the universe? As well as explaining what "god" really is? We just can't comprehend it yet... but we will in time I think. Just like we did with volcanoes, oceans, telephones, airplanes, etc etc etc.
Religion is powerful in many ways no doubt. It helps certain people get through rough times, and to them, it explains the way things are as well giving them a code of ethics that they can follow. But religion is also on a way ticket to being obsolete. If science can bridge the gap between the two, what now?
Now just so everyone knows, I am not trying to attack anyones beliefs, I am merely wondering outloud if the above could be the case. I would also like to hear what other people have to say. Please be open-minded, and rational.
I will explain in better detail some ideas that I have heard as well some of my own if a great dialogue can be established.
Yes, what he said...
People will always fear the unknown. There is no way you can convince a religious person to stop believing in their religion even though religion and its laws has also caused pain and suffering for millions of people around the world since its inception. They simply cannot take the chance and fear that god will brand them as defilers and send them to hell.
I think as a species we should confront all our fears and rise above them. We should ask the questions that nobody else will ask and not be turned down by a simple word such as "faith." It is our duty to explore and discover all there is to know about the universe.
right, those scriptures written by man. where woman are chattel, and the adulteress is stoned but the adulterer is not.
That is nonsense. The Torah prescribes stoning as a punishment equally to both parties (and for several crimes that have nothing to do with gender). You are basing your opinions on some sort of popular knowledge about religion that became prominent among the non-religious.
The Torah (Jewish law) does not treat women as chattel either. Quite in contrast to the west, where women could not legally own property under certain circumstances (for example when they were married), Mosaic law already declared that women can own property over 3000 years ago. The popularly known "fact" that the Bible declares women to slaves or property is simply false.
Finally, Jewish law has very stringent requirements for conviction if the penalty is death. The accused does not only have to have been proven guilty but he must also insist himself (or herself) that he would do the deed again and doesn't see it as wrong. No difference is made between women and men as accused, although in times past only men could be judges.
Perhaps you are confusing the Bible with the Quran.
I didn't know that an abortion was considered a "whim" thing, thanks for the clarification.
It wasn't in the past. It is now, unfortunately.
Women are told that abortion is a small matter, something that can be done too lightly. That's not a good development, I think.
Apparently religious texts are excluded in that principle.
Which is why they will forever be noobs.
I am curious. Have you guys actually ever heard of a case where someone was stoned by a Jewish or Christian court (outside the Life of Brian, I mean)?
I think the Bible itself mentions maybe three or four cases. But beyond that, what makes the event so ever-present that you would claim it is a part of the religions?
ROFLMAO! Spoken like either a man who will never be faced with the choice, or someone who has never personally faced an unwanted pregnancy! There is a vast cavern between being "told" something is a small matter, and shelling out a few hundred dollars, then having your feet up in stirrups while you're junk gets scraped out or spending 2 days with cramps from hell if you choose the chemical route.
This choice a woman has to make is NEVER a small matter -- not even when it's just a false alarm!
Bring a class of second graders to a mid-term abortion and then ask them afterwards what the "junk" was that was scraped out. Funny how they would understand it with no problem.
Sorry, I really don't mean to be offensive and I think women should be able to make these decisions...but call it what it is and don't cover it over with political rhetoric to make it sound like something else.
Abortion ain't something to joke about. Its messy and gets really bloody. Their water breaks and they go into labor for the next hours. Its messed up. Esp for those who do it after 1-2 months after getting pregnant. A woman who agrees to abort their child after this point has no business in pretending it was the right thing to do. .
I've seen girls who get pregnant only to chicken out because of peer pressure and parents making a big deal out of it. If your going to get pregnant and you know your risking it just stomach what you about to do and take the pills within 3 weeks. This matter is not about religion -its about science, ethics and logic.
Having an abortion is self injury and denying potential life. If religion wants to twist and turn this to their advantage then i can see why. Doesn't take a holy person to understand this philosophy nor was this even written in the first religious books because its a modern era issue. The rule against abortion in religion was written by mortal men who claim they know better and gods backing them up. The problem is its an intimate issue and some couples love the guy finishing inside the girl . Their not guilty for doing so because some couples wait for the time when the girl wont get pregnant only to find out she is so the abortion problem will always pop up for generations to come.
Abusing abortion pills also damages and poisons the woman's body and their ability to have healthy children or have children at all.
At this point religion is just copying science and its reasons not to abort babies and rewriting it.
By the term "junk" I was not referring to the products of conception -- I was referring to genitals.
Lula posts:
K10w3 posts:
Even if, for the sake of argument, I grant that there is such a thing as free will, what sort of a loving God would force free will onto man that would result in the eternal torture of that man? What good is "freedom" if it results in suffering?
Re: the highlighted...
We know and prove the fact of free will by direct consciousness, just as we know our own identity. We are aware tgat we can freely guide our own thoughts, selecting if we choose the least attractive. We are aware that when 2 alternative courses of action lie before us we can freely deliberate upon their respective merits, reflecting, examinining and inquiring the reasons for each side. We are conscious that our final choice is free. We can buy a Toyota or a Ford car. We can choose vanilla or chocolate ice cream. We can take "X" street or "Y" street to get to a destination. We can tell the truth or tell a lie.
We are not only conscious before acting that there are various courses open to us, but we are conscious that we may desist from a course of action already adopted, and after acting, are conscious of self-approbation or self-reproach realizing that we were not compelled to act that way.
In short, our moral consciousness points to the freedom of will. We know by our inner voice of conscience that we are bound to do right and avoid doing wrong. We also know in the depths of our heart that we are absolutely free to avoid evil.
Admittedly, environment and heredity can weaken will power and that lunacy can deprive a person of self-control altogether. But these are not normal cases and Almighty God because He is Just will make every allowance as regards salvation.
He'll blame only those things for which they are actually responsible and in the degree. But the question of how everything will be adjusted does not affect the fact that the human will is normally and of its very nature endowed with freedom.
Before we get to free will, God, His laws and Justice, let us get to free will, man's laws and justice.
If a person is not free, he cannot be expected to keep laws, and should not be punished for breaking them. There can be no obligation to observe a law when it is not possible to keep it. The judicial and punitive application of human legislation, is outrageous if man is not responsibile for his conduct.
Denial of free will is as absurd as denial that man is a human being for intelligence and free will alone differentiate man from the beast. If you had not free will, you could not deny the God that made you.
Finally, justice demands that there be a God. The very sense of justice among men resulting in law courts, supposes a Just God. We didn't give ourselves our sense of justice. It comes from who made us and no one can give what he doesn't possess himself. Yet justice can't be done by man in this world. Here the good often suffer and the wicked prosper. And even though human justice doesn't always succeed in balancing the scales, they will be balanced by a Just God who most certainly exists.
And this is what it is really all about...the questions and debate of Origins...
If the cosmos, and all that's in it, including human life came into existence by chance and natural processes over eons of time, in other words, if Evolution is really true, then people are just animals and can make up their own rules about right and wrong just as animals do by instinct. We have no responsibility to God.
On the other hand, if Special Creation is really true, then we were made by God and becasue of that He gets to make the rules and laws (which He did). His standards decide right and wrong. We have great responsibility and the Just God will hold us accountable for what we did and what we didn't do and should have.
God = creator
Science = man's understanding of the created
Religious people have had far more to do with advancing civilization to the technological level we are at today.
Remember Gregor Mendel? You studied him in highschool if you took anything related to biology. He is known as the father of modern genetics. He was also a catholic priest, you don't think that influenced his scientific efforts?
Ever hear of the big bang theory? That was also developed by a catholic priest. The big bang theory proves that the universe had a beginning, if science could define what caused the big bang it would explain that something that has no beginning, created the first beginning. That would be god.
Philosophy and theology has been exploring this for decades before modern science, science just brings a more refined and corrected understanding of the truth.
But we can only make those choices based on what we have learned so far through experience (our history), our physical feelings (our biology) and our environment. For example, if I had never experienced ice cream, I would have no basis to decide which I preferred, chocolate or vanilla ice cream. If I were new in town and had no map, I would not know which were the wiser choice, "X" street or "Y" street, and I might never get to my destination. I might have Alzheimer's disease or schizophrenia and BELIEVE that what I was telling the truth, when in fact what I was telling was a lie/misinformation. If I grew up in a primitive culture where travel by car was unknown, I wouldn't know what to DO with a car, let alone which I preferred, Toyota or Ford.
Just because choices are available, does not mean I have free will. (Contra-causal) Free will presumes I have external (supernatural) knowledge, outside of anything I had experienced or have access to, as to what the proper BEST choice would be in any of those situations. Instead I can only make what I assume is the correct choice, based on what I have experienced so far in my life, how I happen to be feeling physically at that moment, and what presents itself to me in my environment.
Essentially what I am saying is that if someone makes a choice I don't think is moral, I can judge that person, but if I WERE that person; if I had their biological make up and all the experiences they ever had, and the access to the things they had access to, I would make that same decision.
The Biblical God asks us to know what He supposedly knows in order to make the right choice--but the Bible tells us we can never know everything that God knows, so we are put in a catch 22 situation, where we have to make the right choice without the faculties to do so. If a person happens to be born in a pagan country or a country where the Biblical faiths are not predominant, how can they make the correct Biblical choice? They've never experienced the knowledge necessary to make the right choice, they don't have the proper environment to make the right choice; they don't have the correct history to have access to the right choice. Contra-causal free will DEMANDS that we know what the right choice is, like it's beamed down into our brains giving us access to information outside of the natural world, and that's just not factual.
Is that a good thing? And compared to what/whom? History is written by the winners--that doesn't mean that what we know as history is what actually happened. We don't know how the pyramids were built, probably because some religious person wanted that knowledge destroyed. The pre-Columbian history of the Americas is pretty much lost to us, because some religious people thought their knowledge was dangerous and destroyed it because it didn't sit well with their religious beliefs. We have no clue of how much valuable information was lost when religious people destroyed the library at Alexandria. We can only guess at how advanced we'd be if the winners hadn't messed things up for everyone by destroying the technology that USED to be known.
I'd just like to note how fascinatingly ironic it is that this conversation has drawn in Member No. 2,448,424, who is Nameless. I would never have guessed that the forum code would allow such a thing.
Agree with k10w3 we sadly have lost knowlege about our past...If we compare parts of the pyramids with our technologie today, we are many years behind.I must admit im not very religious at all -i was when i was round about 18 but all changed when i have read a little in the bible and reviewed art of the crusades of the christians.If i think of god i think of something devine something that is untouchable but all around you something that guides you on your path without you knowing that it interferes.And believe is good it doesnt matter in what you believe it gives you hold.But like our theorie of evolotion - many things in the bible just dont make senseIt still cant be explained why we have gained almost 3 times the brain mass in our evolution over a very short time period.I think we were (made) as explained in the bible ( adam and eve and the garden of eden )... I just think that the knowledge wasnt at the peak to understand what actually happend. I also believe that if we discover more and more about our past many books have to be rewritten.
If you limit yourself only to what seems possible or reasonable, you disconnect yourself from what you truly want, & all that is left is a compromise
.
A jetliner is flying at 35,000 feet.
We humans see and hear it. We recognize it. The jetliner is.
The ant doesn't see and hear it. The ant doesn't know it and even if it did, wouldn't know what it is. The jetliner is not.
The jetliner either is or is not depending on perspective. However, in absolute terms, does the jetliner exist?
An ant scurries along in his ant farm, digging tunnels, protecting the hive, etc. Oblivious to the outside world, beyond the boundaries of the farm, a small child observes the ant, wondering in amazement at the magic of colony life.
The ant doesn't see or hear the world outside the farm. The child and outside world is not.
The child sees and hears the ant, the farm, and the outside world. It is.
The child, farm, and outside world either is or is not depending on perspective. However, in absolute terms, do they exist?
After studying the farm for awhile, the child wonders whether the ant is aware of his presence and can even question where his little farm world came from. And then it dawns on the child - am I an ant too?
The World is divided into armed camps, ready to commit Genocide, just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe.
In the End...Religion will kill us all...
Ed Krebs
Because Communism and its anti-religious ways never killed anyone.
Well, this is forefather here, wanting to applaud you all on an amazing, spiritual experience you have provided here. I am a very busy man, and don't get to spend much time here at JU. I checked in last week and found the loudsilence post. I read quite a bit, and coming to the comments end, (May '09) I noticed the non-believers were the closers.( I thought it was May '11,) and more just between God and me...thought I would acknowledge His word and move on. What a surprise today finding so lively a discussion. Lula...I got one thing to say to you. bebop a lula, that's my baby, my baby doll my baby doll, my baby doll. You are cool.
The rest of you...well you can all go to...bed. Get some rest. God loves you.
One more thing. God made man in His image. You are all a lot like God, and the way He speaks to us is in a way that we can understand Him. It is His nature to reveal Himself to us. Let him who has ears to hear listen.
Sweet dreams.
my baby doll, my baby doll, my baby doll...my baby doll, my baby doll, my baby doll...my baby doll, my baby doll...
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