Has it ever occured to anyone that, over the course of history, humans often come to the conclusion that anything that cannot be explained at the moment is automatically considered to be supernatural? For example, the Greeks. They had a god for just about anything that they could not explain with their means of science or technology at the time. How else could they explain the torrent of fire and molten lava that spwes out of a volcano? By claiming that Hephasteus is simply working in his forge of course.
But fast forward to today. And we know that isn't the case. The advent of computers, automobiles, airplanes, etc etc etc, would simply astound the Ancient Greeks. They would consider us gods. They would be unable to speak out of pure awe.
And since science is never ending in the sense that, with each question answered, more questions are formed... we still do not have a logical explanation for God. That being that supposedly judges us from afar, and moves through us all.
Think about it though... what if we just haven't reached the technological threshold to explain it yet?
It could be possible, that "God" is nothing more than a wave that interacts with our matter. Influencing our decisions with maybe electrical impulses or something similar. Religion is making "god" more important than it really is. With the advent of more powerful technology, we may be able to see what it is that moves through us all. More than likely, it is just another force of nature. It justs exists. It is there, always has been. But it is not a being, it is not something to worship... it is just not something we can understand. YET.
Basically, what I am trying to say is, we humans have proven over time that with the advent of better technology we can understand the ways of nature around us. So what's to stop us from unlocking the secrets of the universe? As well as explaining what "god" really is? We just can't comprehend it yet... but we will in time I think. Just like we did with volcanoes, oceans, telephones, airplanes, etc etc etc.
Religion is powerful in many ways no doubt. It helps certain people get through rough times, and to them, it explains the way things are as well giving them a code of ethics that they can follow. But religion is also on a way ticket to being obsolete. If science can bridge the gap between the two, what now?
Now just so everyone knows, I am not trying to attack anyones beliefs, I am merely wondering outloud if the above could be the case. I would also like to hear what other people have to say. Please be open-minded, and rational.
I will explain in better detail some ideas that I have heard as well some of my own if a great dialogue can be established.
hank you for the compliment! I appreciate it. BTW, did you get my private messages? I'm never sure if people got them or what. With email I also mark it so it will notify me if the person received the message or not.
If you know another language, which talking to you Leauki I think you know several, translation is very difficult. Even if you have mastered several languages.
Yes, I got your message. I merely failed to respond in timely manner. I still will. I'm in a Hebrew immersion course and have time for the Internet only sporadically.
I am only fluent in two languages, but can keep up conversations and read in three more. I have basic knowledge of four more, enough to do research on word roots etc..
They believe before G-D became G-D he was a man. Section Six 1843-44 p345: http://www.boap.org/LDS/Joseph-Smith/Teachings/T6.html
This is too complicated. For all I can tell they believe that G-d was like us in relation to nothing before Creation, where there was no superior being because the only being was G-d.
STAR ADDER POSTS: *LOL* Who got almost cruzified by their very own catholic church for postulating a heliocentric system. Good job!
Oh, goodness, you disappoint because you fall into what critics of the Church have been doing ad nauseum for centuries, i.e feeding the myth. Almost crucified?
In 1616, Galileo was charged with adding new data to Copernicus' heliocentric theory which seemed to contradict the plain words of the Holy Bible, namely Joshua 10:13. The Church advisors didn't base their judgment on the scientific data nor did they condemn Copernicus. In obedience to the ruling, Galileo promised to teach Copernicanism as a mere hypothesis. But, in 1632, he published a work advocating Copernicanism and on that he went beyond the field of science but rather acted as a philosopher. He proposed in a letter to the Benedictine Fr. Castelli to modify the traditional interpretation of various texts of Scripture that mentioned the movements of the sun and earth. On that account, Galileo received a disciplinary ruling and allowed to live comfortably in his estate near Florence where he continued some of his most famous work.
Galilieo's mistake was not heeding the advice of his friends who told him to "stay out of the sacristy". He wanted to meet the theologians on their own ground and presented himself as a rebel. The Church's motive was to defend a truth of Divine Revelation and were right in keeping the general law of exegisis, that Scriptural texts are to be takne in the literal sense unless there is a good reason for the contrary.
The Chruch eventually adjusted her more literal interpretation of Scripture using the wise teaching of St.Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine that in describing the phenomena of nature, the Holy Bible speaks according to appearances.
STAR ADDER POSTS #214
God doesn't "need" anything. God is Infinitely Perfect in that He has every perfection in the highest degree and without limit.
God is Love and He created us out of His love giving us free will to believe, love Him and obey His Holy will. He gave us His revealed religion in which we render to Him the acknowledgment due to Him and in this way we respond to His own great love for us.
He demands that we do only what is best for us to do. We are unjust if we do not return love for love and gratitude for gifts received. We worship God not for His well being or need, but for our own well being both present and future. The greater one's love of God, the greater and truer one's love of our fellow neighbor.
God doesn't force anyone to believe, love or obey Him. No one can force another to do so.
God created mankind with free will so that we might have the nobler dignity of being masters of our own destiny, not having to serve Him necessarily and blindly as do trees and inanimate stars and planets. God did not want a forced love from beings capable of a an intelligent appreciation of the good. Once God makes man free, he is free either to love God or to reject Him; to serve Him or to rebel against Him. That is physically, no man is morally free to reject God. God therefore forbids that warning us of its disastrous results.
At any rate, there is a God and we are free.
Leauki posts #215
Actually, religion is a term derived from the Latin word, religare---meaning to bind. Religion in the widest sense is the union of man with God. religion is true when its doctrines and precepts are either dictated by right reason or revealed by God. If the former, it's called natural religion, if the latter, it's called supernatural religion. Religion is false if when claiming to be revealed, it is unable to show a divine guarantee or when its dogmas and practices sin against right reason and conscience.
As religion binds man to his Creator, the term properly used expresses the principle which holds man responsble to the one to whom he is bound. When one is bound by the basic natural law to all human beings, when the obligation is necessarily a moral one, one is bound to a Supreme Being, God and there is no possibility of escape.
Since the one who is bound is a rational creature, which implies that he has free will, the law that binds may be obeyed more or less adequately, it may be denied or it may be flouted. But the law itself will not budge, it is there just the same (written in our heart) so that the consequences of obedience or of disobedience is for each one of us to choose freely.
It is this recognition of the law each and all to worship God that lies at the foundation of every system of worship under the sun. As supernatural religion (Old Testament Judaism which ended in 70AD) demands that man honor, obey and worship Almighty God it follows that a true revelation of God's will demands a divine guarantee of authenticity. This has been given to mankind by Jesus Christ in the Church universal, which He established.
And what would that be? A certificate from VeriSign?
And would you have to install that certificate on your
?
Old Testament Judaism which ended in 70AD
There is no such thing as "Old Testament Judaism" and no Judaism ever "ended".
You are confusing your beliefs with history again.
Good question!
Biblical Judaism was, but is not now, the one and only God revealed God instituted religion. Judaism was recorded in the Old Testament and existed during the time of Moses and Aaron until Christ established the New and Eternal Covenant in His Blood.
Biblical Judaism was an organic, priestly, authoritative, revealing sacrificial religion. Its authority largely centered in the High Priest just as the authority of the Church the Messias established centered in St.Peter and the successive Popes.
The Jewish Ecncylopedia states the high Priest "alone offered the sacrifices for the sins of the people". He officiated at the only altar the Mosaic Law permitted Ex. 20:24-25; Lev. 17:8-9. The Jewish priesthood ended during the first century with Phannias, son of Samuel, the 81st occupant of the Chair of Aaron. This happened in 70AD when the Jewish state perished when the Temple and its Altar were destroyed and "not a stone was left standing" as Jesus predicted in St.Matt. 24:2.
The destruction of the Temple and its Altar, followed by the ending of the priestly tribe of Levi with its tribe of Judah with its family of David, in which the Messias was foretold to be born, evidences the indisputable historic fact that the Judaism of the OLd testament ceased to exist. The ending of OT Judaism was providential. It had fulfilled its glorious mission. That mission ended with the coming of the predicted Messias, in the Person of Jesus Christ, who instituted a new priesthood, and the New Sacrifice predicted by Malachais in chapter one.
You know Leauki, that synogogues have Rabbis, not Priests. no one speaks with authority in any of the Judaisms of today as did the High pRiest and the Sanhedrin during the pre Christian ages. Authority is contained in a dead letter book, but not in any living individual or organized body.
The Priestly authority once expressed through the God instituted Jewish Chruch, has been exercised by the Catholic Church since "the veil in the Temple was rent from top to bottom." St.Matt. 27:51. You should recognize the warning that the religion of an exclusive people, the children of Isreal, had ended its mission. It has been displaced by the religion of the people of all nations, the Catholic religion. A new set of keys were given by God the Father, through His Messianic Son to High Priest St.Peter. Those keys which signify spiritual God-given authority, are today in the hands of Pope Benedict XVI, the 265th successor of St.Peter.
Definition of God: That than which nothing greater can be concieved".
Step 1: Imagine God
Step 2: God exists in the mind
Step 3: Something that exists in the mind AND reality, is greater then something that exists ONLY in the mind.
Step 4: Therefore if God is to be "something that nothing greater can be concieved of". he must exist in the mind and reality. If he only existed in the mind, then you could imagine something even greater - a God that existed in the mind AND reality. That contradicts the definiton of God.
Step 5: Therefore God exists.
Step 5: Therefore your imagination of an existing God exists.
Fixed.
Right. But since ONLY the imagination of an existing "God" exists (in the mind of those who believe in him)...
Case closed.
Why didn't he say something?
Anyway, Judaism is certainly not the only god-revealed religion. Many people and peoples have heard the voice of G-d.
The destruction of the Temple and its Altar, followed by the ending of the priestly tribe of Levi with its tribe of Judah with its family of David, in which the Messias was foretold to be born, evidences the indisputable historic fact that the Judaism of the old testament ceased to exist. The ending of OT Judaism was providential. It had fulfilled its glorious mission. That mission ended with the coming of the predicted Messias, in the Person of Jesus Christ, who instituted a new priesthood, and the New Sacrifice predicted by Malachais in chapter one.
What "ending" of the tribe of Levi? The kohanim are still with us. And genetic studies have actually shown that they indeed share a common male ancestor a few thousand years ago.
Do you make this stuff up as you go along? The Levites are alive and well, thank you very much.
You know Leauki, that synogogues have Rabbis, not Priests. no one speaks with authority in any of the Judaisms of today as did the High priest and the Sanhedrin during the pre Christian ages. Authority is contained in a dead letter book, but not in any living individual or organized body.
Synagogues have neither rabbis nor priests. Rabbis are teachers and judges and might or might not be associated with a synagogue. Priests are not needed for Jews to talk to G-d. Priests are also associated with the Temple which does not currently exist. This has happened before and then the Zoroastrians came and rebuilt it. (Your Messiah was supposed to rebuild it again but unfortunately he was born and died before the Temple was actually destroyed and has yet to come back and rebuild it.)
You might be glad to hear that the Israelite tribe of Joseph still has their high priest and still have their priests lead services.
Authority is contained in the Samaritan high priest for the Samaritans and in the rabbinical courts for the tribe of Judah. I don't know how the tribe of Dan handles it. But the system is far from dead, it's just a little bit older than your church organisation. (For example the high priest of the Samaritans comes from an unbroken line going back to Aaron.)
The highest authority lies with G-d, i.e. a dead letter book since noone can speak for G-d, not even a high priest or a rabbi.
What "Judaism's" of today? Rabbinic and Karaite? I don't know if Karaites have any special status for priests, but I know they don't have rabbis.
He was refurring to his body not the actual temple. Thats why he said it would be rebuilt in 3 days.He rose from the dead after 3 days.
So he didn't even say he would rebuild the Temple?
That is one failed Messiah!
Or maybe you don't know this. The Jewish view of the Messiah since the time of the Prophets has been that he would bring all the Jews back to Israel, bring about world peace, and rebuild the Temple. Actually all that will be one big project and work together. (He will apparently also be of the Davidic line of kings.)
We are still waiting for the Messiah who will rebuild the Temple.
He WAS the temple. He rebuilt it in 3 days when he rose from the dead. What the jewish people thought would be the messiah was not based on the scriptures. They had a misconception of who the messiah would be. Jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies about the messiah.
He WAS the temple. He rebuilt it in 3 days when he rose from the dead.
Jesus was a man, not a temple. The Temple still stood in Jerusalem when Jesus died.
What the jewish people thought would be the messiah was not based on the scriptures.
Of course it is. It's the "Jesus was the temple" thing that is not based on scriptures.
They had a misconception of who the messiah would be. Jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies about the messiah.
Jews had a misconception about their own Messiah?
I think not.
You can have your Messiah, I will wait for mine. Thank you very much. You want a Messiah who "is" a temple, hence you are satisfied now. I want a Messiah who will rebuild the Temple. I will wait for him.
LEAUKI POSTS:
lEAUKI, this is true only if you are referring to Christianity, specifically Catholicism becasue the Church is the only Church established by Christ.
Jesus Christ revealed Christianity which amounts to Biblical Judaism full blossomed. Biblical Judaism was essentially a prepatory religion meant of its very nature to merge into its perfect fulfillment when the Messias came. Christ was that Messias and Incarnate God. Christ gave us the holy religion, now known as Catholicism, in which the Jewish religion foreshadowed. Christ declared that His religion was not a preparation for a further and more perfect revelation, but that it would last just as He had given it until the end of the world.
Christ said, "I have come not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it." Biblical Judaism fulfilled by Christ has lasted in the Catholic Chruch which alone has existed all days since His time and which alone gives signs of perpetuity.
LULA POSTS:
That's nice. There may well be men who identify their family tree as Levites, but none of them have ever been Priests or could ever be as it's impossible to fulfill the priestly duties in divine worship as commanded by ALmighty God. The Mosaic Church of the chilren of Isreal set forth in the Torah, ended its Divine mission in the first century of the Christian era when it ceased to have a priesthood; which was followed by the destruction of the temple with the single Altar, the only Altar permitted according to the Mosaic Law.
With the ending of the existence of an Aaronic priesthood, there came an end to the sacrifices called for in the book of Leviticus. This is when the MOsaic Chruch or biblical Judaism as recorded in the Old Testament became a thing of historic past.
In modern Judaism and Jews today, for, as you say, these "Levites who are alive and well, thank you very much", there is no Temple, there is no Holy of Holies, there is no Altar, and no sacrifices. There is no priesthood, no priests, no competant authorities who have a Divine commission, who are consecrated to exercise levitical requirements. And this is not accidental, it's providential as the New Covenant predicted by Jeremias came into being in the first Christian century which the Messias instituted Catholic Chruch evidences. Jer. 31:31; Hebrews 8:1-10.
The Aaronic priesthood with its Levitical ministry was fulfilled and evidenced in the instutituion by Jesus Christ of a more perfect, Sacrifice, an "unbloody oblation" later called the Holy Mass, in place of the bloody Mosaic sacrifices. Malachais 1:11; St.Luke 22:19-20. This sacrifice was to be offered on altars all over the world "from the rising of the sun, unto the going down thereof" instead of a single altar in a central place as called for in the Old Testament Deut. 12, Esdras 17 and Malachais.
I think not.You can have your Messiah, I will wait for mine. Thank you very much. You want a Messiah who "is" a temple, hence you are satisfied now. I want a Messiah who will rebuild the Temple. I will wait for him.
Waiting for the Messias to come and rebuild the Temple and reinstitute an Aaronic priesthood is waiting for the impossible. (If and it's a big IF, it happens, watch out and flee as far away from this as possible becasue it won't be by God.)
OVERSEER POSTS:
Thank you for telling the truth...and as you know there were many in Christ's day who saw Him perform miracles and signs and still didn't understand or bellieve that He was God Incarnate.
It is based upon Scripture but ones you are not likely to be familiar with...St.John 2 and St. Mark 26
Here's the Douay Rheims version:
St.John 2.....13 And the pasch of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And he found in the temple them that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting. 15 And when he had made, as it were, a scourge of little cords, he drove them all out of the temple, the sheep also and the oxen, and the money of the changers he poured out, and the tables he overthrew.
16 And to them that sold doves he said: Take these things hence, and make not the house of my Father a house of traffic. 17 And his disciples remembered, that it was written: The zeal of thy house hath eaten me up. 18 The Jews, therefore, answered, and said to him: What sign dost thou shew unto us, seeing thou dost these things? 19 Jesus answered, and said to them: Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 The Jews then said: Six and forty years was this temple in building; and wilt thou raise it up in three days?
21 But he spoke of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen again from the dead, his disciples remembered, that he had said this, and they believed the scripture, and the word that Jesus had said. 23 Now when he was at Jerusalem, at the pasch, upon the festival day, many believed in his name, seeing his signs which he did. 24 But Jesus did not trust himself unto them, for that he knew all men, 25 And because he needed not that any should give testimony of man: for he knew what was in man.
And St.Mark.....
53 And they brought Jesus to the high priest; and all the priests and the scribes and the ancients assembled together. 54 And Peter followed him from afar off, even into the court of the high priest; and he sat with the servants at the fire, and warmed himself. 55 And the chief priests and all the council sought for evidence against Jesus, that they might put him to death, and found none.
56 For many bore false witness against him, and their evidences were not agreeing. 57 And some rising up, bore false witness against him, saying: 58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple made with hands, and within three days I will build another not made with hands. 59 And their witness did not agree. 60 And the high priest rising up in the midst, asked Jesus, saying: Answerest thou nothing to the things that are laid to thy charge by these men?
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said to him: Art thou the Christ the Son of the blessed God? 62 And Jesus said to him: I am. And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming with the clouds of heaven. 63 Then the high priest rending his garments, saith: What need we any further witnesses? 64 You have heard the blasphemy. What think you? Who all condemned him to be guilty of death. 65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him: Prophesy: and the servants struck him with the palms of their hands.
These passages tell us of the Temple of Jerusalem which had replaced the previous sanctuary which the Isrealites carried around in the wilderness, was the place selected by God during the Old Covenant to express His presence to the people in a special way.
Christ's words and actions as He expels the traders from the temple clearly show that He is the Messias foretold by the prophets. That's exactly why some Jews approach Him and ask Him to give a sign of His power. Jesus' reply in v. 20 remains obscure until His Resurrection from the dead. The Jewish authorities try to turn into an attack on the Temple which merits the death penalty. Later they will taunt Him with it when He is suffering on the Cross and later still in their case against Stephen before the Sanhedrin.
There was nothing derogatory in what Jesus said, contrary to what false witnesses made out. The miracle He offers them which He calls "the Sign of Jonah", will be His own resurrection on the 3rd day. Jesus is using a metaphor, as if to say, "Do you see me...this temple? Well, imagine it will be destroyed would it not be a miracle to rebuild it in 3 days? That is what I will do for you as a sign. For you will destroy My body which is the true temple, and I will rise again on the 3rd day."
No one understand at the time what He was saying, Jews and disciples alike thought He was speaking about rebuilding the temple which Herod had begun to construct in 19-20BC. Later on, the disciples grasped what He was saying and understood what He really meant.
God does not exist.
Just a quick question. I didn't read all this thread, so please excuse me if someone's already talked about this, but I was just wondering the answer would be of the people posting here.
Question: You say that you can't prove that God exists because if there was nothing when God created everything then there wouldn't have been God. If this is so then how come you can say that science says that there was a primordial goop that the universe exploded from today and that this is fact yet you can't prove where that came from either? Either way we're stuck with the same unanswerable question, it's just how people choose to answer it. I'm just wondering how anyone can discredit one side or the other, since it's the same question, and why they can't coexist.
I hope i'm not treading on anyone's religious toes but the biggest diference between religion and science is that religion keeps with the one view whereas science uses the phrase "if it works it's obsolete" and constantly tries to overrule itself. Put the beggining of the universe. fundamental Christians would say that God created the universe. Yet with science, most scientific evidence points towards the big bang and yet other scientific theorys would say that the universe has always been there.
ΑΩΑ - the beggining, the end, the beggining
You make it sound like religions don't ever disagree. LoL, what a silly notion. There is so many different religions(all lies ofcourse) and they all bicker back and forth to each other about who is right. I don't care really. It mught as well be the spaghetti monster for all I care it is all based on a lie designed origianlly to control people. At least science is a self correcting process, it tests to see if it is wrong and if so has no trouble accepting the mistake and moving on to attain the REAL truth.
You've blown a very big hole in my argument there! lol! And I would have to say your right. Religions do disagree as does science. Making them both the same thing in a sense, I guess that religion is like a stubbornly outmoded science. The same way that the ancient greeks used to believe everything was made out of fire, water, air etc, is an outmoded version of physics. My own personal view by the way.
AΩA - the beginning, the end, the beginning
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