I don't think it's simply a matter of reaction.  As I've said about missile barrage (and about starfall in Warcraft III, a conceptually identicle ability) don't use it if it's just going to get interrupted.  You control when it gets activated, not your enemy, and because of that you can ensure it happens at a time when countering it is not a simple matter of point and click with a radiance (or other equivalent).  We cannot dismiss the Marza's missile barrage as trivial to counter for the same reason we cannot dismiss it as trivial to use.  The tactics come in the planning and placement to prevent or achieve the devastation it causes.

I do not found my arguments on how easy or hard it is to counter.  Rather, I found them on the fact that comparable abilities do not exist.

Which is easier to do?  CB+Malice or simply MB?  Also MB has larger radius than any other Cap abilities.

By the way, as far as I know, you can use some of graphic enhancements and you can still play multiplayer.

The trick is that the game does not check the checksum of non-critical files, such as effects and graphics. I think one of Ironclad employees said that when asked if it is possible to use graphic enhancement mod and still play original game with others.

You need to backup the files first, then apply modified files to the game folder (NOT mod folder.)

By the way, I lost 2 games before this game to "pro" rated players.  Did I complain?   No.  Did I think that the game needed "rebalancing?"  No.  THEY BEAT ME STRAIGHT UP, FAIR AND SQUARE, PERIOD.  So that pretty much blows your little contention right out of the water, doesn't it?

Here's something to think about.  Mines require some "grace period" (is it 30 seconds?) before they arm.  But while mines can be nasty, MB has infinitely more power to destroy whole fleets than mines do.  It's like the devs put all this concern into making sure mines couldn't be dropped on top of someone (without grace period and warning) and blow up a few ships, but that damn MB goes off and you're toast!

I believe there are some changes needed to how capitals abilities work in sins. For one thing, some abilities are just too good and makes some ships/caps a must have for competitive gaming while others require a lot of micromanaging to become useful (if ever). I think the game should value synergies a lot more, making each abilities not too damaging on their own but shine if used in combo with other abilities. Then again, no such combo should make it so whole fleet get annihilated in seconds, it should just tip the ballance toward the one who bother to use abilities at the right time and leave some chance to the opponement to react (at least try to salvage it's fleet before it's all destroyed). Abilities like missile barrage are just too overpowering, if you are not there watching you can loose whole fleets to a single ship. For it to be balanced, it need to be made so by itself it's not too damaging, but with the use of other abilities it becomes more potent. Also, i believe no abilities (or set of abilities) in the game should be able to target a whole fleet on it's own, making a single ship a fleet buster. And last, no ship should have a set of abilities that make it super efficient on it's own (think a certain mothership), there should always be a need for a mixed fleet to get maximum potential...

But it's also ridiculous against any player who isn't paying attention or don't know what is going on. Besides, is it fun, gameplay wise to have a single ship tip the balance of battle on it's own due to the use of a single ability? Isn't it better when a battle turn in your favor because you are using a proper set of unit/abilities and show you have more skills at managing your fleet?

Were you using the Mothership as your starting capital ship? If so...when you notice that your whole fleet is blinking red, you could use Shield Regen. That'll stop MB from killing anything. Plus it has a shorter cooldown and lower antimatter cost than MB. Heck, the advent are the hardest to pull off MB against. Heck, just having Guardians will help your fleet significantly. I might be wrong, but I think that shield regen doesn't have a target cap either. Shield regen is pretty powerful too. It may not kill fleets, but it keeps your fleet alive.

I'm actually curiuos how your opponent got a lvl 6 Marza so early in the game when you guys are still spamming lrfs. In all honesty though, you have around 18 seconds to react to it before your lrfs die. Is MB really powerful? Yes. Should we nerf it? Probably not. The game needs some powerful stuff and each faction has it's share. Tec just happens to come in the form of a single capital ship. Easy to use, easy to counter. Advent Battleball? Harder to set up, harder to counter.

we need some objective standards. all this pissing contest forum wars stuff doesn't establish anything. 

my view is that Missile Barrage is objectively too strong. imagine other cap ship abilities at a similar power level. 

what if Rapture's Dominance channeled for 25 seconds and stole a ship every 1.25 seconds?

what if Skiranta's Replicate Forces channeled for 25 seconds and cloned a ship every 1.25 seconds?

what if Sova's Rapid Manufacturing....actually did anything at all. hehe, bad example.

and now i'm sure all of you are going to obssess over the details of my two silly examples and point out how, in your opinion, i've said something ludicrous. some of you may even insult me personally (real classy guys, i don't always agree with AgentOfKharma either but I try to avoid throwing ad hominems). 

the simple fact is this Missile Barrage thing is a controversial issue. at some point a decision will have to be made about it. it won't be made by any of us here on the forums. Maybe Annatar will have some input, he seems to have some kind of relationship with Ironclad. the best we can hope to do is present some well stated opinions and hope the Ironclad devs will take that into account when they decide what to do or not to do regarding Missile Barrage. 

basically what i'm saying is, i know its a code red emergency whenever someone is wrong on the internet, but we might be more useful if we just focus on presenting opinions with reasoning behind them rather than trying to out piss one another. 

Could people please stop making assumptions about the skills of the two players involved in Agent of Kharmas game?

It does not matter at all if they were PRO or NOOBS for the discussion of Missile Barrage.

The skill of the players involved has not anything to do with the "balance" and the comparable power of a cap ship ability.

Now let's come to EadTaes:

1.) "Reverie" being used automatically and ready the very moment when Missile Barrage is used? Hopefully you do not automate your only way to stop a missile barrage, the AI will not stop using it, and then you cannot stop Missile Barrage - you will still have to watch out yourself for the Marza and use Reverie manually.

"Detonate Antimatter" does not stop a Missile Barrage once activated, it can only prevent it and only if the Marza is already very low on Antimatter.

This also demands that you have a Revelation at hand, a Halycon for example and others cannot stop a MB. A single ability should not demand from a player to always be prepared to have the specific counter at hand, just in case. If people see a TEC player and automaticall have to prepare for Marza MB's, there is good reason to believe that there is something "special" about this skill.

2.) Running away is actually the best and only option without having a cap ship with interrupt abilities at hand. You pointed out that it would be good to make MB more visible, indeed. It is just not as easy and comparable to just unleashing a MB and leaning back, you cannot leave a Marza unattended, which speaks for the sheer power of MB.

3.) Each ship tanking 3000 damage is commendable for your defense abilities and the size of your fleet and number of Guardians. But each ship in range just had to absorb 3000 damage, each. Only a few exploded and the others just survived more or less badly damaged a 3000 damage barrage. - This does not have anything to do with the sheer damage output that a Marza can direct at any target in range, it just says that there are ways to survive a MB, which does not address the point if the ability is overpowered or not. It even more points out that we almost expect Marzas to cause extreme damage.

4.) Ad hominem argumentation, basically telling Agent of Kharma he is a noob and therefore wrong on all accounts. What kind of person are YOU actually, do you like to be adressed this way if you have concerns?

@SageWon: Cold faced lie? Just play one more game against the AI and tell me again that your Sins is "special" in this regard.

Some more food for thought: Two Marzas can wipe out huge "unfair" AI fleets, they do not bother to evade the missiles. If the enemy AI has caps in the fleet that actually could disable/interrupt the Marza, it does not wait for MB, it is just about as unreliable as your own cap ships interrupt abilities on autocast.

BTW, mja5000, your A,B,C "If..." and "Most..." arguments are all logical fallacies. Start with the "If..." assumptions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacies

This is definitely a good idea

This would still shoot 8 waves in 10 seconds, dealing 800 damage to targets in range.

Some improved visuals would also help. The Guardian's shield is still allowed to blur the whole screen (they are working on it), the damage dealing premium ability of a cap ship on the other hand should be visible.

Edit - on 2nd thought, I would prefer a target limit approach.

But that's the key right there isn't it?  Take a look at all the other "powerful" abilities currently in game.

1)  Shield Regeneration.  Replenishes shields.  Powerful because it is quite good at keeping nearby advent ships from exploding.  Why is that powerful?  Because all the credits/metal/crystal and time you spent building the rest of your fleet becomes more effective and can deal more damage than it would without (since they might be dying).  On it's own, Shield Regeneration isn't even a threat to your enemy.

2)  Malice (pre-nerf or not).  Powerful because it essentially multiplies the damage you're doing with your other ships and inflicts it on more of your enemies fleet.  Once again, on it's own it does very little and isn't a threat.  The "powerful" nature of it is dependant upon all the credits/metal/crystal and time you spent on the rest of your fleet.

3)  Flak Burst.  Helps eliminate hostile strikecraft.  Powerful because strikecraft can be very dangerous, moreso because they cost nothing but antimatter to build once you pay for the carrier.  Does no actual damage what so ever to the enemy frigates, etc that he had to spend resources on.  Helps you win because it tips the balance and lets the rest of your fleet that you spent credits/metal/crystal live longer and be more effective.

4)  Nano-Dissasember.  Does damage directly to hull and lowers armor for a bit.  Does this to a single target and deals  about 600 - 1200 damage (30/sec for 20 - 40 seconds) total by itself.  That's not enough to destroy much of anything except the lightest of frigates on it's own at level 1 and even at level 3 isn't enough to take out a single heavy cruiser.  Armor decreases, once again, are of most benefit when the rest of your fleet that you spend credits/metal/resources on can take advantage of it.

There are more but are we seeing a pattern here?  The power of most of these "best in game" is extremely reliant on the rest of your fleet.  They scale with fleetsize but only if you've actually improved your fleet along with them.

Now, some good abilities that don't work like that so much.

1)  Resource Drain.  Does a decent amount of damage to a single planet and steals some resources. The numbers are 45 health/sec and 2 pop/sec for 30 seconds while you gain 15 "resources"/sec.  It hurts but it's not enough to take out any upgraded planet other than an asteroid by itself.

2)  Phase Missile Swarm.   Does up to 600 "shared" damage to up to 7 targets.

3)  Gauss Blast.  Does up to 800 damage to a single target.

4)  Cleansing Brilliance.  Does 250 "shared" damage per second for 8 seconds to as many ships as fit into a 8000m x 1000m radius column.  This is the ability that most closely resembles Missile Barrage but does a maximum of 2000 damage to a target and the column radius largely limits it's total damage potential.  Can be interrupted.

As we can see, aside from Cleansing Brilliance, the better abilities that aren't reliant upon the rest of your fleet for their power are tightly constrained in just how much they can actually do.  Cleansing Brilliance, on the other hand is not generally regarded as being unbalanced because the column nature of it's effect generally keeps it's overall total damage in check.  Generally speaking, I figure it's rare that you mange to hit more than 20 - 30 ships at best with it in a single blast for a total damage of 40,000 - 60,000.  It also means that the Radiance has to do do some maneuvering in order to get a "good" shot off.

Now let's look at Missile Barrage.

150 damage a target 20 times to as many targets as will fit in a 10,000m radius circle.  The math works out to 3,000 damage to each target, or at least some portion of that even if they manage to clear the radius before it's over.  That doesn't seem too bad except that 10,000m radius circle is HUGE and covers a sizeable portion of a gravity well and most likely the majority of the space where a fleet battle is taking place.  That effectively nullifies most of the limitting factor on it's damage potential as it could conceivably hit the entire enemy fleet of 100+ ships.  No special maneuvering is required as it's a circular area of effect, you just have to get close enough.  3,000 damage also happens to be enough to destroy many of the various types of frigates and cruisers in the game.

So we can see that the basic problem with Missile Barrage compared to most other abilities is that A)  It's unreliant upon anything else for it's effectiveness and B )  That it's "limitting" factor doesn't really do much to limit things and keep it in check.

Solutions?  A couple quick ones.

1)  Reduce the circular radius.

2)  Cap the total number of targets that it can hit per volley.  (12, 18, 24, whatever).

3)  Change the area of effect.  Perhaps to a column like Cleansing Brilliance but it could be wider (2000m, 3000m, 4000m, whatever).

Any of these three or some kind of combination them would effectively keep Missile Barrage in check in terms of it's total damage potential and still leave it more than capable of inflicting a ton of damage.  I could mod any of these 3 solutions in under 5 minutes if they wanted to be tested.

Another solution, as others have suggested they would prefer, would be to increase the effectiveness of other abilities to better match Missile Barrage.  That would work too but is a far larger change to make as instead of balancing one ability/ship you are instead rebalancing the entirety of the rest of the game.  Which do you think is more likely to be done by Ironclad?  It also doesn't just affect capital ship balance, it would change the balance between capital ships and frigates as well - probably to a large degree.

-dolynick

Transitive: at the moment i'm leaning on target cap in the neighborhood of 24 ships (still a large number, would be the biggest AoE in the game) and the delivery being changed from 20 waves of 150 to 10 waves of 200. this would actually increase its DPS but lower its "scales to infinity" absurdity.

Lol taking out the 24 ship cap this is a boost. Means certain death to frigates that get hit by it. The limit of 24 is bust because hittign big ships is not what youwant to hit.

Dolynick: 2)  Cap the total number of targets that it can hit per volley.  (12, 18, 24, whatever).

Lol it's a lvl 6 ultimate abilaty doesnt ahve more then 1 lvl.

4)  Cleansing Brilliance.  Does 250 "shared" damage per second for 8 seconds to as many ships as fit into a 8000m x 1000m radius column.  This is the ability that most closely resembles Missile Barrage but does a maximum of 2000 damage to a target and the column radius largely limits it's total damage potential.  Can be interrupted.

Lol 8 seconds cannot be inturepted untilt he deed is done. And if you combine it with Malice it wipes out small ships like barage. Then just rince and reapeat.

SorcererFailure:not even flak / hoshi combo spamming repair can survive mb

Lol garda's can survive it just buy a few upgrades in hull and armor. The teir 1 should be sufficient. Hoshikos will died unlest you give them tier 4 4 upgrades if i remember right.

Normaly only ships that die to marza barage evry single time are. LF, LRFs (exculding illums), Colonies, Seige, Scouts.

Ship that will survive if you upgrade them are: Illums, tier 1 support cruisers, flak

Ships that will survive without upgrades: HCs, Carriers, teir 2 support cruisers, Caps.