Those of you who know me and the GalCiv team (who are now all on Elemental) know we’re huuuuge Civilization IV fans. If you don’t have Civilization IV, I’m not saying you’re a bad person for not having it. But I’m not saying you’re not a bad person either. Though, wait until it shows up on Impulse next month before buying it if you haven’t already.
Anyway, at GDC, Soren Johnson (designer of Civ IV), myself, and Paul “Mormegil” Boyer) had a long lunch together and talked about the challenges we’ve been having in Elemental random map generation.
One of the big challenges we’ve been having has to do with rivers and roads – how do you make them look good in a randomly generated map? Soren was nice enough to walk us through some of the algorithms they used in Civ IV since they ran into the exact same problem. It’s a real pain in the butt.
We also talked about the challenges of doing big maps. This is where Civ and Elemental are fairly different largely because of the differences in the engine being used.
In Elemental, the strategic zoom feature lets us have much bigger maps since it’s very easy for people to manage much larger areas because the Elemental map turns into a cloth map where players can instruct units and cities and the like from afar.
Another advantage Elemental’s engine has is technology. That is, the hardware is just a lot faster which means we can easily create a lot more “stuff” that players can automate without it slowing performance.
One result of that is world size. In Civilization 4, the largest default map size “Huge” is 104x64 tiles. There are custom maps bigger (138x96 for instance). But in Elemental, the map size is 224x160. To give you an idea of that:
And that’s on the 32-bit version of the game. Assuming Intel gets us a 64-bit Havoc, the 64-bit version of Elemental could be even bigger.
Of course, we also have map sizes that are ridiculously small too (one called “wee” even).
Having a big map, of course, is pointless if you don’t have the UI and automation in to keep micromanagement from being a pain and of course, like I mentioned, you have to have hardware fast enough to be able to navigate quickly and seamlessly through such a map (A Civilization V would no doubt have maps on the same scale as Elemental for instance).
Continuing about complex games. The most complex board game is Go, and it has what? A board and stones, that's all. Still, "Go is noted for being rich in strategic complexity despite its simple rules." AFAIK it's also the oldest competitive game that is still popular today. Somehow, you don't need a Dominions 3 game rules complexity so to have a strategic complexity (that i called depth). And that game survived the time, so a simple design with a strategic complexity is destined to live forever.
Generic magical effects???? I think you didn't play Dom3 enough. There are astral only spells like antimagic or Master Enslave (take control ofevery enemy unit that fails an easy saving throw). There is a death enchantment that causes all units in the world to age 12 times faster (which usually amounts to "Everyone Attack me" in MP), another death spell that causes darkness on the battlefield, a magic item that blinds everyone on the battlefield...
You show an absolute lack of knowledge of the game if you think the effects are generic. The above are only a few examples. There are many other unique effects, and some generic effects are limited to 1 or 2 schools (teleport/movement is air/astral, going underwater is water/air for instance).
The difference with MtG is that in MtG you have a hand of 7 cards, read them and understand immediately what to use (all the more so with predesigned decks), so it's easy to learn. In Dom, you have hundreds of spells (less than cards) but you have to look at all of them and there is no easy guide like what you've got in your hand, since you must decide what to research (as if you had to design your deck as the game progresses).
I think it's you who don't understand how MtG combo decks work. It's called COMBO for a reason. You have cards that are so-so to absolutely useless by themselves. Say, link: Necropotence card was deemed absolutely useless, it was rated 1/5 by the most respected players. Later it emerged as a primary card in a dominating Necropotence deck. That's because such "worthless" cards in a combo with other cards become extremely powerful or just flat out win the game for you.
Compared to that, Dom3 has generic magical effects, exactly what i said. Like, mass delayed kill ("all units in the world to age 12 times faster"), mass domination ("take control of every enemy unit that fails an easy saving throw"), teleport etc.
Dom3 should have had combos if it had spells like "all units in the world age 12 times faster" so everyone wants to attack you, but you also has a spell that seals your border and another spell protects your global enchantments from disenchant. That will be an MtG-like combo, you complete it and you either win or you're in a very favorable conditions for a win.
So, as we see, i do know Dom3 but you don't know MtG. It was a bad idea to compare Dom3 magical effects to MtG magical effects.
I think it's you who don't understand how MtG combo decks work.
You're just plain wrong there. I usually came up with lots of combo decks when I played. Most combos aren't efficient, but a few are.
Like Dom3 Darkness spell which affects both you and your enemies and only happens to be useful if you have night-seeing units (or units with auras which cause damage without having to see anything)? Or Communion Master which is useless if noone casts Communion Slave AND noone casts other spells afterwards? Like combining spell effects? Come on!
You mean the guy in Dom3 should cast the global spell that prevents enemies from entering your realm like freezing the seas so you can't get into/out of water and spend more gems so that dispel is actually harder? That's feasible, you just proved Dom3 has combos. Try this with LA Atlantis for instance.
You'd better look up all Dom3 spells and learn them before you decide it's worthless because you do'nt know what you're talking about. Any idea what reverse communions are for instance?
Wow, obvious pairs are somehow equal to combo decks. Don't make me laugh. Say, in Civ4 you can give a unit a "city defence" promotion that is absolutely useless by itself. But when you defend a city, it gives you a bonus! Wow. You see, i proved that there are such "combos" in Civ 4 too, not only in Dom3 like you claimed.
Besides, Communion Master and Communion Slave are just two parts of the same spell as they work only with each other and they were designed to be that way. Howver, you can't cast spells on two/three etc. chosen units so you're casting that spell one unit at a time.
Fine, fine, but is it a viable strategy? No. You need high-lvl spells from different magic schools, some specific map layout and a lot of gems. And end result isn't that good. You'll not win the game with something like that. So, no, Dom3 doesn't have something like MtG combo decks.
I said that some MtG cards were considered worthless but they weren't because of combos. It has nothing to do with Dom3. So, what the hell do you want to say by that? It doesn't make any sense.
P.S. Reverse communion relies on primarily using communion slave's spellcasting instead of comunion master's spellcasting in dangerous situations IIRC.
You don't need a combo to be a game-winning combo all by itself to be a viable strategy. Dom3 cannot be won using a single trick, which makes it more strategic than MtG, not the opposite. I used Mtg in the beginning to point out that a game with complexity could be popular, and pointed out why Dom3 is complex too but not as easy to grasp. Point remains that Mtg has complexity but doesn't have a steep learning curve. Arguing that both games have different features is going to be pointless. My main point is that Elemental could be deep and complex without necessarily being overwhelming.
Not necessarily in dangerous situations (well, you could say it's in battles, which are by definition dangerous ). You cast a spell booster on the master and then let the slaves beahve normally with their spell levels boosted by the master (mostly useful with astral as it saves gems, but useful for other paths if you have only 1st level mages for instance). A communion master casting holy avenger and sending slave thugs fight the opponents is also an example of not obvious communion use, since the main use of the communion is to boost the master. Reverse communion is generally used to enhance the slaves instead.
Nah, MtG combo decks are obviously Expert-level (MtG terminology, not mine) and beginner's decks are Beginner level. Beginner's decks are very simple, with simple cards and simple effects.
However, in Dom3 the first thing you need to decide is how to design your god in a way that reminds me about classical RPGs (they're effectively dead too, by the way). Before you even started, you need to figure how your god's strengths/weaknesses will work together with your race strengths/weaknesses and how that will lead to your victory. Not an easy task for a new player.
Instead, in MtG you can take several Beginner's level decks and play with your friends, probably not even really looking in the rules at first, or not looking at all if at least one of the players played MtG before.
In Civ 4, you're playing for a historical figures so you can pick, say, your country and the leader you know from the school days, instead of figuring how "old empire of something" differs from "new empire of something" in Dom3.
Ok, but Dominions 3 is a game that shows how it should NOT be implemented. So, if that was your point, you picked the wrong game.
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Some spells have area of effect and effectively target several units (bless comes to mind).
I was referring to interface limitation for enchantment spells that you cast and target yourself on the main screen, like Commune. Not auto-cast/auto-target spells that are being cast in combat.
If starcraft was such a complicated game, why would players want to INCREASE the micromanagement aspect? It's laughable when people say the split-second decisions starcraft players make are "strategic". Pulling vultures back and then telling them to fire, then pulling back, etc is not strategic. It's an arcade. Same with building 1 marine in 5 different factories instead of having an AUTO-BUILD function. Neither go nor chess have these redundancies, yet starcraft players clamour for more! You see, in strategy games, you think a lot and make few moves. In starcraft it's the exact opposite. I even have two friends who are B players on team liquid and I used to watch tons of starcraft games. Now I play forged alliance, a game with a much more advanced UI where there are actually more than just 2-3 ways to counter something and the game designers do not limit your economic development (which makes every moment in the midgame crucial since you could be using your clicks to improve your economy at ANY stage of the game, instead of redundantly moving vultures around like that example in starcraft). In supcom fa, you actually have to concentrate on FOUR OR FIVE battles going on at the same time instead of microing units in a miniscule part of the map.
Give me starcraft with supcom's UI and economy, and I guarantee you I can easily beat even the best starcraft player.
It's called "micro", not "strategic". It's kinda hard to argue with someone who doesn't know such basics of the basics.
Who exactly wants more micro? Some nonames on a forum? Just about any gaming forum is full of such loud-mouth complainers. Blizzard doesn't listen to such players and they're lessening micro requirments for Starcraft II so it's irrelevant.
Of course you have them in chess and especially in go. You don't change your strategy every time you move some pawn in chess. That's exactly the same micro, you're making many moves per one strategic decision.
More so, you said "strategy games", without specifics, and on a computer-related forum. That was a HUGE mistake on your part. Most Starcraft matches end in 20-25 minutes. If you'll try to start a multiplayer game in most computer strategy games (especially TBS), you'll need hours and hours. Most likely dozens of hours. That's because most computer TBS require MORE micro than Starcraft, not less. There are exceptions like Spectromancer (something like MtG redesigned for online play), but you'll be swamped by micro if you'll try to play Civilization, Europa universalis, Total War series or even most wargames.
So? I won several Starcraft tournaments and i had a friend who was a 2nd best player in Russia. And i knew most other top players in Russia at that moment.
The logical conclusion is that there is a game with SupCom's UI and economy It's SupCom itself Since you can easily beat even the best players in such a game, do you want to say that you're a world champion in SupCom?
Besides, that's the whole point of micro in Starcraft too. You can either control vultures at some point in the game or make more workers or make more units. A relatively advanced concept is that you have "obligatory micro" and "non-obligatory" micro at each moment of the game (i don't remember exact name for such a micro, but i know the concept). Say, you need to order the next upgrade at the very moment previous one finishes. You need to order a worker the very moment your build queue is empty. But you can harass enemy economy with a drop when you don't need to do any obligatory micro. If your enemy has some obligatory micro at the moment you're harassing him, you're merely trading your "attack micro" for his "defence micro" (maybe you gain some micro advantage, maybe you don't), but you're having significant gains over your opponent in "obligatory micro". That gives you economic advantage.
Ellstar, there is a huge difference between 'clickfest' micro which emphasizes reflexes and dexterity, and civ type micro which emphasizes thoroughness and patience.
Nah i was the strongest Future start player in Civilization 4 international multiplayer ladder for a while http://www.civplayers.com (though that was several years ago)
Sure, i invented some tricks and found the better way to grow an economy faster. But my biggest advantage was that i was able to control more workers than others with the same time limit per turn. I'm a former Starcraft player so i out-microed pure TBS players. I also was on the first place of that ladder twice. So i think i'm more qualified than others to say if it's the same micro or it isn't the same micro, especially in multiplayer.
In either case, the limit is how fast you can make decisions, finger dexterity is important but it isn't nowhere near as important as decision-making, even if it's RTS-style micro.
Hell, i'm beating younger myself in a pure 100% clickfest program called PieGates (you may search for piegates.exe). Your only task is to click on the randomly appearing targets, your score is equal to a number of hits per minute. 10 years ago my record was 248, recently i got 260-266. Unless you believe that i'm somehow becoming more dexterous with age (IMHO it's physically impossible to be more dexterous at the age of 29 compared to the age of 19), even in a pure clickfest game physical dexterity is not the most important factor.
Generally dexterous your correct, but for specific tasks practice will tell. And clicking on a specific point on the screen rapidly is a very specific task.
This is why I like turn based games. I do not want my time/dexterity/attention to be the key resource in the game.
Dom3. ... I love that game. Yes, it has one hell of a learning curve, but it also has such an information rich interface that you can learn everything about it. That's key, I think, in any game that models that kind of complexity. What, afterall, would be the point of tracking experience and wounds and equipment by individual units if you couldn't drill down far enough to actually make use of that?
At any rate you guys are kind of discussing two different things. On the one hand you have games like Go and Chess which have simple rules and emergant complexity that grows from the interaction of the rules/structure. On the other you have structurally complex games like Dom 3 or Starcraft where you have hundreds of units which are each individually complex and can have many independantly affected and affecting attributes.
Elemental will obviously be a structually complex game, but IMHO it's always best if the complex structures are either intuitively obvious attributes like strength or age or if they have a clear and well documented internal logic.
Best post in this entire thread by far.
I agree with the sentiment that Dominions 3 has way too steep a learning curve to be accessible, and isn't a good example of how design complexity.
Also, I can vouch for what Ellestar's saying about Starcraft, he seems to know exactly what he's talking about. There's a reduction in the boring obligatory/econ micro in SCII with multicast unit selection, unlimited units selected at once, worker rally points etc.
The competition in SC and SCII is a function of APM and how clever your actions are. The constraint is APM for lower levels of play and decision making for higher levels. Take two beginners and slow down time for one of them [cast a Haste spell on him, in other words) and you'll see a far higher advantage than two high level players.@Ron Lugge, I don't think you realise that there are timed turns in the context Ellestar is talking about. You're thinking of Classic turns and PBEm while he's probably talking about, correct me if I'm wrong, minute long simultaneous turns. I think everyone agrees that the former is a test of decision making without time pressure while the later is a test of decision making with time pressure and the speed with which you can make those decisions.
Frogboy, if you could use your contacts with the civ guys and make civ 5 be able to work with either steam or impulse... so that we could play civ5 without steam, you would make a gazillion people very happy over here. (seen the scratch civ5 off my list thread? if you counted they "yays" and the "Nays" of civ+steam, and figured out the precentages you could present a very, very compelling argument to the civ people. (i mean, if they lost 1/2 thier audiance due to steam, i think they might be upset... and you might make them very happy if you gave them that 1/2 back (not to mention, giving impuse a sizable market share))
It's too fast to be trained in a normal way. Most players hit their ceiling in PieGates in 30 games or less AFAIK. After that, it's very hard to improve. The best result is about 310 or so. I saw 306, it was done by one of the top 3 Stacraft players in Russia at that moment, before my eyes. It's 153 hits, he clicked all targets. Sometimes i can click all of them too, but not for the entire test (so physical dexterity doesn't seem to be a limiter). I have a feeling that it requires a flow state(link) / Mushin(link) / whatever you like to call it (flow state has a distinct feeling when you experience it). So, i think the mastery of the flow state is the key, and it's a mind practice, not a physical practice. I argue that it's the same for fast micro (like the one in RTS).
You make a good point, one I'd missed. There's a reason I don't play Civ in MP very often.
Ironically, it's because I usually end up waiting, having made all my moves long before everyone else finishes, but...
One of the big reasons why I prefer to play PBEM games like dominions 3 as opposed to Civ4 multiplayer (although Civ4 single player with a mod like revolutions is still fairly interesting). More strategic depth (once you get over a hell of a learning curve), more time for diplomacy, and more time for actual strategy free from artificial time constraints (or boredom because you completed your turn too fast).
necro much?
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