Flak is OP
Flak is fine against fighters.... BUT ,IS grossly OP against other units. Espesialy TEC and vasari flak.
Tec due to higest hp /cheapest cost and vasari due phaaaaase missiles and charget missiles.
That said: Flak is fine against fighters
Why? Well...
It is night impossible to remove flak from the battlefield due to near immunity to LRF fire and STUPIDLY hig hp... best hp/cost ratio of all frigs and cruisers.
So flak that is nearly unconterable is now a permanent deterrant from using fighters. This leads to 60/40 ratio in LRF/Flak fleet composition wich is now the "way to win". You cant use LF's due to LRM precense and you cant use fighters due to 75% building penalty of flak. HC's are only option, but by the time you get to that point, it is usualy too late.
Sollution?
Nerf Flak HP 50% and lover the armor a bit. It is still usualy most ignored unit in the field, but atleast now it whuld be removable, not like 1200HP 300 shield gardas are now.
Yay double post lag.
Well I'll try and I'll see it. I know I personaly faced down a Vasary that spamed like 50 flak with 20 or so cobalts and i was chewing him up good. But it was before the current patch. Gonan see if i can'T get someone to flak spam me. I'll tell you how it went.
Just for the record, I tested 1 flak against 1 lrm. The lrm totally kicked the ass of the flak. Then I tested 1 flak against one lf. Same results - the lf won with many hit points to spare.
This admittedly didn't take into account any of the dynamics Cykur referred to, such as repair, micro, yadda yadda. But it's a good "baseline."
Personally, I hope there is great pause and consideration before considering a nerf to flak, because I don't want to go back to all carrier spam.
ya for serious. and i mean, Sabotage Reactor/Interference/Drain Antimatter basically turns light frigs into a hard counter to repair cruisers so i don't even see the issue of Garda+Hoshi team. Lights counter both of those.
Just get on a little map with a friend and do some tests with different unit quantities. There are a lot of outside variables in real games.
EDIT
Come to think of it, I might have done this test before anti-heavy damage type got boosted from 125% to 150% back in 1.1, so LF might fare a little better. I only started killing people with Flak in actual games back in Feb, so I know they are still reasonably competitive, but the test I was thinking of may not be so easy anymore. Micro is certainly required, because flak are multi turret and can be abused this way. Anyhow, bottom line, I am not really arguing either way, I'm just saying Flak is pretty tough when massed with repair.
Siddy's build order is Kol, colony frigate, Kol, Hoshiko, Hoshiko, Hoshiko, Carrier, Carrier, Carrier, OH NO I'm BEING OVERUN BY LRF+FLAK, Carrier, Marza.
The thing I like about flak is they can easily shoot multiple targets while moving, and are pretty tough so they can't be fighterswarmed.
They don't do much damage though, so you have to back them up, but they are good for keeping masses of light units (fighters, and to a lesser extent LRM's) at bay.
The only way they are overpowered I think is because they are really hard to kill. I like them that way, it seems to... fit well.
Well, we seem to have reached a verdict here. Flack is FINE and stop crying like a baby.
Well, what do you expect from a forum thread Siddy started?
Im curently testign ti flak vs light frigates. Ligth frigates are winning hand down each time. Even with micro or both or only 1 side.
I still vote for a light show. That way everyone can spam what they want and we call all eat popcorn and watch the show!!!! Besides then no one can call OP!!!! LOL
With bailknights and manshooters mods yes
So you tried 10 v 30 and 20 v 30?
Not much actually.
On a side note: Can we all just stop complaining about flak/carriers/blah/bloh/bluh and just play a game?
Seriously, if you think something is overpowered, abuse the crap out of it. I really don't care, because no matter how the game dynamics change, the skilled players will always find ways of making the most out of their situation.
Nah last nigth only had time to test 10 vs 10 senarios. We were testing primaraly if moving the flak arround in circles back and forth throught the formation had any impact on the otehr come fo the battle VS a static fight were everyone just focused fired ont he same target.
In all intances the LFs anihilated the flak while suffering onyl 2 loses but a 3rd LF was almost dead. By movign thought and the formation back and fortht he flak manages to get one mroe kill.
Base on that I would predic that 10 LF vs 20 Flak the LFs will still win it. Vs 30 it migth be to much.
Also testes 5 carriers with fighters VS 10 cobalts. The carriers were beign kited. Result was cobalt win with 4 LF left and carriers get anihilated.
Also did 40 LF vs 20 HC. The LFs were wiped out but toke out 50% of the HC and almost 1 more. This onyl shows that HC are more powerfull but that a balance fleet would be better. Since removing some LF and adding support crusers will probably change the battle around.
We will continue to test it but so far results have only comfirmed what I already knew.
AMEN, brutha.
i'm assuming you were testing Kodiaks vs. Cobalts, since thats the only pair of Heavy/Light where the heavy is exactly twice the fleet logistics of the light.
i'm curious to see how the other lights hold up in comparison. disciple are the most fragile but have the greatest DPS per fleet logistics whereas Skirmishers are the other way around, being the toughest with the lowest DPS per fleet logistics.
also curious to see if the Crusader's damage aura ability is as good as it seems like it would be for this situation (fighting off a mass of light frigates). i'm pretty sure it doesn't stack though, so maybe its a neglible effect. let me know if you get around to testing that kind of thing.
Fuck it, im just going to abuse illu/flak combo and go back playing advent.
allmost all of you missed the point, the flak makes LRF's immune from the fighters, while the LRFs make them immune from Light frigates.
so all you Wiggers can go test your 30 flaks vs 15 lightfrigs combo in your bathroom and slit your writst.
All so called "counters" IE LF, die silly before they even dent the flaks DUE TO FUCKING HIG HP.
Don't forget the guardians. A good time shall be had by all.
Well just to tell you I don't fleet supply points as a calculator for force equivalence. For in a battle they do not represent the true cost of feilding said unit and from testing they balance very badly from unit to unit in most cases. As beign said if 20 kodiacs 200 supply were supposed to be equal to 40 Cobalts also 200 supply point the battle should be near a dead draw.
Instead I use a unit's total potential credit cost. Tot hat that si very simple. Multiply the Metal and Crysal cost of a unit by 5 and add it to the credit cost fo the unit. As so these are the following potential credit cost of some units (TEC since it's the chart i have at hand right now.
Cobalt: 575LRM: 625 (yes LRMs ar emore epensive then cobalts by 50 credits)Flak: 700Kodiac: 1350Percheron: 2260
So if you want equal force base ont he cost fo feilding such a unit (with is the number 1 factor in a battle of attrition) you calculate it as so.20 Kodiacs = how many cobalts in cost?
20 x 1350 = 27000 (credits)So to know how many cobalts27000 / 575 = 46.95 round it up to 47 (witch is the real numbe ri used int he test.)
How ever in the test the kodiacs won by losing only 10 and the cobalts lost all 47. So oen woudl deduct that your better of spaming kodiacs. How ever in that battle at the start 2 cobalts were killes for every kodiac killed. Factor in that the 2 cobalts are cheaper then 1 Kodiac and build 3 times faster you come out with a situation int he long run were reinforcement are being constantly produced were cobalt maintain their numbers in battle more easily while the kodiacs are having a harder time maintaining them. Thsi eventuly tips the scale int he favor of the cobalts as thier number remain very close to their ammoutn were as kodiacs will slowly go down. Ofve course this takes into account that both players have the same amoutn fo factories replacing loses and a similer strenght economie.
And I dont have the numbers for the otehr races anymroe sicne I didn't keep those charts sicne I found they were poorly made but form what I remember their cost layout was very similer.
Btw or the 5 carriers 10 cobalt were the cobalt won with 4 cobalts living has cost as such:
5 Carriers: 1130010 Cobalts: 5750
Cobalts costed half price and won. Sings of a true counter.
VS Flak:
10 Garda: 700010 Cobalts: 5750Same result cobalts one suffering only 2 loses.
And currently using these calculations the game come out being very balanced. I also use these calculations online in battles of attrition witch I rarely lose. And normaly for me to lose it'S because the other side recived feed witch breaks the equal production capabilaty that attrition relies on. But you can then recive feed yoru self and rebalance it.
The only ships that dont balance well are caps. 6250 cost in credits and when you factor in the aditional need to buy capital ship crews it get worst. Say the first lvl of cap ship crews 1200$ 75C come out to 1575 plsu the cap ship 7825. Witch is the main factor why gettign a 2nd cap early game is a bad choise. For that price you can research percherons and build 3 of them. Now a lvl 1 cap suks but you dont have time to lvl it. So either you let you cap suck for a long time or you buy lvls for it witch increase in cost as so. 1250, 1500, 1750 brign cost to.
lvl2 9075lvl3 10575lvl4 12325
Very costly and nerfs your early econ.
EadTaes,
your numbers seem useful for considering certain types of situations, such as the likely outcome of two players throwing the full force of their production and economy at each other. this is good to know as it comes up alot, however it is a model that is built around quantifying factors that are somewhat external to fight itself. your model is good at accounting for the economic efficiency of one ship vs. another.
I mentioned the equal fleet logistics scenario because i'm more interested in what is likely to happen if two players both with the same amount of logistics researched and at or close to their current logistics limit meet in a battle in a contested system (meaning neither player has a significant tactical advantage due to reinforcement or anything like that).
to me this seems like a worthwhile thing to know simply because it is fairly common to deploy a fully built fleet to combat while you then go and repurpose your economic output for something else (such as technology research or civilian development) with the intention of resupplying your fleet later, after combat is resolved.
Well your right on one point knowing what happens with equal fleet suply is nice and usefull. How ever their isn't ever going to be and have been a battle situtation were while you are in combat your ar enot replacing you loses. If your enemy isn't replacing his loses it's either because he has no income to replace them or your fleet is so much mroe powerfull then his that it's all but hopeless. Witch if is the case you don't need to refocus yoru resorces on you developing your econ further since the end-game has been reached.
Also in a battle were the economic efficiency or ship comes into play (i love the way you said it) the person that is most economicaly efficiently replacing his loses will end up (in theory) with spare cash to invest in upgrade and econ developement. Witch will further asure his victory.
Hey, has anyone else noticed that Carriers kinda suck right now? Considering the amount of resources you spend on building Carriers, fighters just aren't going to be able cut through LRFs when there is Flak support. Making your Carriers seem like dead weight. By then, you will have spent a lot of resources on high cost/supply cruisers that aren't really doing you much good. This leaves you at a significant disadvantage and you probably are going to lose.
I'm not talking about carrier spam here either. You could try to counter with LFs but their LRFs will tear them up. The only way fight back at that point is to either have more LRFs than your opponent or upgrade to HCs. Of course your oppenent will probably do the same.
Out of curiousity, would switching to bombers do any good?
Siddy:
Go for it man. Halcyon, Progenitor, guardian, flak, illu. Abuse the hell out of it.
ya, what else do the Advent have to offer BUT these? ^^
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